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In that case follow the directions i listed above with rinsing the foils and powder till the rinse water is clear. If you feel there is more tin in the powder and want to try and remove it before AR process you will need to incinerate your material first,but personally in my opinion i wouldnt think theres enough tin to effect the outcome of your AR process and besides, you will wash the final product with hot hcl acid before you melt anyway. Theres no real need to dry the material as long as all the base metal is removed,decant as close as you can get without pouring off the foils or powder and proceed with AR in the same flask. Dr Poe has posted on colloidal gold and may be able to tell you more about that subject. What i do know is you can save the purple wash water and evaporate all the water till it dries completely,im not sure how much gold could be in the purple water or even if its worth trying to reclaim. My guess would be somewhere in the millionths of a gram category but after the water dries it can be redissolved or maybe even condensed down and stored until when/if you get more it can be added to make it worth processing.
 
Oneal,
Here are my thoughts:

Junk jewelry, gold plated jewelry, and gold fill, can have many undesirable metals involved depending on what they were from. Copper base metals common (pewter, lead tin and so on would not be uncommon).

Your color of the wash water is an indication of some metals that are going to give you headache, it sounds like colloids, probably carbon-ous trash in solution with tin and other undesirable metals.

(The colloids can be broken with heating and strong acidic solutions (we will not discuss now in detail)

(The rinse water from nitric rinse add it to the spent nitric solution (after filtering) we will boil this down later concentrating the acid and recovering any traces from it).

You had sulfate salts with the lead salts so lead would very possibly be in powders (nitric may not have remove lead here).

This process can be done in one dish keeping powders in the pot removing liquids as needed,
I use a white corning type casserole dish, on electric hot plate with solid metal cast iron burner.

You may see some other details in this post to another member: http://goldrefiningforum.com/phpBB3/viewtopic.php?f=49&t=12165




Powders separated from nitric solution these I would wash rinse and dry.

Incinerate powders to red hot, (to oxidize base metals like tin, burn off any trash, remove sulfates, nitrates and so on)

Let cool spray dry powders with mist from water bottle to wet, then add HCl.

Boil in HCl, (then the add water to dilute) keep HCl-water hot but below a boil, let powders settle well in this hot solution, and then decant hot solution, (this will help to remove tin, lead, trash, any copper you may have and other things you do not want in solution later (some gold colloids may follow these rinses).

Add water to powders and repeat these very hot water rinses until water solutions we decant are clear.

(Keep these chloride washes together in jar separate from other waste let them settle we will also concentrate and filter them later to retrieve values they may hold later).

Now heat to dry powders.

Re-incinerate the powders red hot, (This will help to remove chlorides that can give us trouble with our next nitric step), Cool.

Again spray down with mist water bottle, wash sides of pot down (this helps keep fine powder from bubbling and floating away when you pour in acids).



Add dilute nitric acid (70% HNO3 + H20 50:50 solution), bring to boil, then cool, letting powders settle well, decant solution and then, several hot water washes (decanting only from well settled powders).

Now add HCl to cover the powders (with little bit of excess), add nitric in very small amount (drops) with med heat (let reaction complete), if all gold has not dissolved, then add a few more drops (let reaction complete) repeat till all gold in solution.

Now we will eliminate any excess nitric you may have:

Let solution heat (not too hot but fumes evaporating off), (watch for boil over), (keep eye on solution but your nose out of it), (have wash bottle handy if foaming occurs you can spray it down with mist from water bottle).

Add a few drops of sulfuric acid, (this will help to remove lead in later steps, and keep from forming salts on evaporations).

Concentrating solution we want it thick like syrup but do not make crystals or salts, add some HCl to wet again, heat until syrup again, repeat HCL to wet, one more time evaporate to syrup, add water till solution is four times volume, turn off heat cover pot let sit overnight.

Now silver if any will be in powders with lead if any, (it should be cold enough outside to crystallize these out of solution.
(We could test for more dissolved silver with a little non-iodine table salt, but since we will be refining this again, I would not mess with that now).

Decant this gold solution, filtering into a clean vessel; let this settle to see if clear.

Now you can use precipitant of choice to precipitate gold, let gold settle.

(Make up stannous chloride solution) test a portion of solution to see if gold still in solution, if barren, then decant solution (put solution in your container to treat for waste disposal),

Wash the gold powders using Harold’s method for pure gold.(see post on getting gold pure).

Re-refine your gold or save these powders for another re-refining as you accumulate more of these powders later.

Read this through before beginning you and other members can ask questions and check this over as I may have missed some step or forgot some thing.

This is just my suggestion you do not have to follow it, but we must decide on one process and not mix several processes.

Members may have other (better methods) suggestions, you may wish to follow them instead.

Members may give suggestions to improve this then we may need to tweak this process.
 
What happened to numbering your questions so those that wish to help can?

It was making it easier to help.

Quoting full posts of other members just makes maters worse. Trying to find where you are stuck among that many more paragraphs takes a great deal more time and effort.

I know you are anxious to get your gold and want to forge ahead as fast as you can but please be patient.

This is a spare time thing for many of us, at times there is precious little to go around.

While waiting you could use the search function, "Lazersteve" covers "black powder from the cell" better than any of us.

If you use those terms in quotes above in your search you will find the entire process stepwise covered several times.
 
Thanks Geo for your post. I now have a clear understanding of the direction I need to go in and the steps I need to take. I am going to get started in a few minutes. I will keep posting just to let everyone know how it's going. Thank you so much for your post, it is appreciated.
Thanks, Oneal

Geo said:
In that case follow the directions i listed above with rinsing the foils and powder till the rinse water is clear. If you feel there is more tin in the powder and want to try and remove it before AR process you will need to incinerate your material first,but personally in my opinion i wouldnt think theres enough tin to effect the outcome of your AR process and besides, you will wash the final product with hot hcl acid before you melt anyway. Theres no real need to dry the material as long as all the base metal is removed,decant as close as you can get without pouring off the foils or powder and proceed with AR in the same flask. Dr Poe has posted on colloidal gold and may be able to tell you more about that subject. What i do know is you can save the purple wash water and evaporate all the water till it dries completely,im not sure how much gold could be in the purple water or even if its worth trying to reclaim. My guess would be somewhere in the millionths of a gram category but after the water dries it can be redissolved or maybe even condensed down and stored until when/if you get more it can be added to make it worth processing.
 
Butcher:

Excellent post. I am going to print it out and use it to process the gold foils and purple mud at my shop.

I will let you know how it turned out.

I am going to make photos and post them here later on.

Thank you!

kadriver
 
Hi qst42know, thank you for your post. I don't understand?
Question 1-Doesn't the site put the post of the previous member's post up automatically when I reply back to them?
Question 2- Is there a way to reply to each individual person that helps me but does not bring their post along with my post again?
Question 3-Do I just click on (POST A REPLY) instead of "Quote" at the bottom right of the window? Will this save bringing the previous person's post forward with mine?
Question 4-If none of these questions will do the job, can you tell me the best way to reply to each person who helps me?
I thought I was numbering my questions but when I look back I see that sometimes I did and sometimes I didn't? Sorry about that, I promise to do a better job with that. I realize everone isn't old like I am and has a full time job. That's why I want to not waste anyone's time here. I cannot ramble on and on when the potential helper has a job to go to early next morning. I realize the sacrifice you guys are putting forward just for the sake of helping people like me. As I said before, it does not go unappreciated and recognized. I surely want to make it as easy as possible for you to help me and not complicate things with the way that I post.
Believe me when I say that I have been where you are and realize what you are saying.
I can remember getting behind an elderly driver when I was a young man. How upset I would get when I would have to slow down for him/her when I was trying to make it to work on time. I said then that the state should pass a law that takes the license of old people when they start driving that slow on the road, there a danger to themselves and everyone around them.
Just let me say, I have had to eat those words.
Qst42know, I will study the site and see how I can more accomodate the very ones who are trying to help and without them, I would be lost. I will try to do a better job in my postings.
Oneal58


qst42know said:
What happened to numbering your questions so those that wish to help can?

It was making it easier to help.

Quoting full posts of other members just makes maters worse. Trying to find where you are stuck among that many more paragraphs takes a great deal more time and effort.

I know you are anxious to get your gold and want to forge ahead as fast as you can but please be patient.

This is a spare time thing for many of us, at times there is precious little to go around.

While waiting you could use the search function, "Lazersteve" covers "black powder from the cell" better than any of us.

If you use those terms in quotes above in your search you will find the entire process stepwise covered several times.
 
Butcher thank you for your post, I am going to get busy. I will keep everyone posted on my progress, going to be a busy day.
Thanks, Oneal58

butcher said:
Oneal,
Here are my thoughts:

Junk jewelry, gold plated jewelry, and gold fill, can have many undesirable metals involved depending on what they were from. Copper base metals common (pewter, lead tin and so on would not be uncommon).

Your color of the wash water is an indication of some metals that are going to give you headache, it sounds like colloids, probably carbon-ous trash in solution with tin and other undesirable metals.

(The colloids can be broken with heating and strong acidic solutions (we will not discuss now in detail)

(The rinse water from nitric rinse add it to the spent nitric solution (after filtering) we will boil this down later concentrating the acid and recovering any traces from it).

You had sulfate salts with the lead salts so lead would very possibly be in powders (nitric may not have remove lead here).

This process can be done in one dish keeping powders in the pot removing liquids as needed,
I use a white corning type casserole dish, on electric hot plate with solid metal cast iron burner.

You may see some other details in this post to another member: http://goldrefiningforum.com/phpBB3/viewtopic.php?f=49&t=12165




Powders separated from nitric solution these I would wash rinse and dry.

Incinerate powders to red hot, (to oxidize base metals like tin, burn off any trash, remove sulfates, nitrates and so on)

Let cool spray dry powders with mist from water bottle to wet, then add HCl.

Boil in HCl, (then the add water to dilute) keep HCl-water hot but below a boil, let powders settle well in this hot solution, and then decant hot solution, (this will help to remove tin, lead, trash, any copper you may have and other things you do not want in solution later (some gold colloids may follow these rinses).

Add water to powders and repeat these very hot water rinses until water solutions we decant are clear.

(Keep these chloride washes together in jar separate from other waste let them settle we will also concentrate and filter them later to retrieve values they may hold later).

Now heat to dry powders.

Re-incinerate the powders red hot, (This will help to remove chlorides that can give us trouble with our next nitric step), Cool.

Again spray down with mist water bottle, wash sides of pot down (this helps keep fine powder from bubbling and floating away when you pour in acids).



Add dilute nitric acid (70% HNO3 + H20 50:50 solution), bring to boil, then cool, letting powders settle well, decant solution and then, several hot water washes (decanting only from well settled powders).

Now add HCl to cover the powders (with little bit of excess), add nitric in very small amount (drops) with med heat (let reaction complete), if all gold has not dissolved, then add a few more drops (let reaction complete) repeat till all gold in solution.

Now we will eliminate any excess nitric you may have:

Let solution heat (not too hot but fumes evaporating off), (watch for boil over), (keep eye on solution but your nose out of it), (have wash bottle handy if foaming occurs you can spray it down with mist from water bottle).

Add a few drops of sulfuric acid, (this will help to remove lead in later steps, and keep from forming salts on evaporations).

Concentrating solution we want it thick like syrup but do not make crystals or salts, add some HCl to wet again, heat until syrup again, repeat HCL to wet, one more time evaporate to syrup, add water till solution is four times volume, turn off heat cover pot let sit overnight.

Now silver if any will be in powders with lead if any, (it should be cold enough outside to crystallize these out of solution.
(We could test for more dissolved silver with a little non-iodine table salt, but since we will be refining this again, I would not mess with that now).

Decant this gold solution, filtering into a clean vessel; let this settle to see if clear.

Now you can use precipitant of choice to precipitate gold, let gold settle.

(Make up stannous chloride solution) test a portion of solution to see if gold still in solution, if barren, then decant solution (put solution in your container to treat for waste disposal),

Wash the gold powders using Harold’s method for pure gold.(see post on getting gold pure).

Re-refine your gold or save these powders for another re-refining as you accumulate more of these powders later.

Read this through before beginning you and other members can ask questions and check this over as I may have missed some step or forgot some thing.

This is just my suggestion you do not have to follow it, but we must decide on one process and not mix several processes.

Members may have other (better methods) suggestions, you may wish to follow them instead.

Members may give suggestions to improve this then we may need to tweak this process.
 
See Oneal, you just found your own answer. Post Reply and Quote button.

And of course you can answer several members in a single post.

Just give it a break in between, hit enter twice and start a new paragraph.
 
Oneal58:

Here is what the filter looked like after drying for 24 hours. I filtered it yesterday pouring all the powders into the filter and leaving the foils in the coffee pot.

When it was wet it was about 1/8 inch thick - light purple mud.

I put the filtered liquid in a large beaker and cemented out the silver, got about 1 to 1.5 troy ounces!

I removed this dry filter and set it in the corningware casserole dish for incineration.

The second picture is the liquid from the second dilute nitric acid treatment. It looked black, but the photos make it look brown.

Notice the difference in color of the brown liquid going into the filter and the blue/green liquid at the bottom of the filter flask (filtrate).
 

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Here is a good shot of the contract in color between the liquid being filtered and the filtered liquid in the bottom of the flask.

I added this clear liquid to the cementation beaker and more silver began to form on the coil of copper wire.
 

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I put all the gold foils and mud into the filter and rinsed good with distilled water.

Then I took the filter out of the funnel and placed it into the corningware casserole dish for incineration.

I put the burner on high and waited for the whole batch to glow red.
 

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Unfortunately, it would not get hot enough so I squirted some lighter fluid on the papers and foils.

The flames completely consumed the papers, and the foils all turned red hot.
 

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I then added hydrochloric acid to the incinerated foils and papers. This is where I am with the process right now.

After the bath with HCl, I will settle and decant, then wash with lots of distilled water (tap water probably ok here).

Once thouroughly rinsed, I will add about 150 ml or so hydrochloric acid and heat slowly.

Then I will begin to add nitric acid to the container to form AR. I will add the nitric a little at a time until all the foils and material appears to have been dissolved.

Then I will add some sulfuric acid to precipitate any lead that has made it this far into my AuCl. Then neutralize with urea.

Once nutralized, I will filter and then precipitate the gold and proceed from there as usual.

Thanks - as alway, critical input from the forum is welcomed and appreciated.

kadriver
 

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Hi Kadriver, you are a man of many talents, keep doing what you are doing! I got stuck this afternoon, had to go see what was wrong with the lights on a float that's going to be in a parade tomorrow. I didn't get anything done today after I called you. I had to stop everything. I plan to try to start back up on my powders and foils tomorrow. Thanks Kadriver, great post! Show and tell does it every single time. Please keep it up. I learn a ton from these type post you are doing. When you first was getting started you posted like this, I keep going back to them from time to time. I plan to try and do the same thing. I don't know about anyone else but if I can see something done, I pretty much can grasp it. So, again, please keep it up!
Oneal58
 
kadriver,

In Loewen's book, he uses charcoal starter for incinerating papers. Would be cheaper than using lighter fluid and maybe safer.

Good to see you using a CW Pyroceram dish. They certainly will take a lot of abuse.

Chris
 
Hi Everyone, I haven't had a chance to do anything much for the last couple of days.
Yesterday before I was called I did go ahead and neutralize my Nitric with Urea, I worked the copper coil until I was called to give a hand to someone. I left the copper coil in the neutralized Nitric overnight, I just got back in the house from checking it?

Question 1- Why has a thick froth formed on top of the neutralized Nitric?
Question 2- What is this thick froth and what caused it? I have cemented silver nitrate in the bottom of the beaker but have a thick foamy froth on top, several inches thick in a 2000ml beaker.
Question 3- What do I do with this froth, as far as the correct way to dispose of it?
Question 4- I see that some of it settled back down on top of the cemented silver in the bottom of the beaker?
Question 5- Did I add too much Urea, I wanted to make sure that I had the Nitric Acid neutralized but I might have put too much?
Question 5- It has a greenish silver color to it, has it got silver in it?
Question 6-I did have the solution warming when I put the copper coils into the Nitric after neutralizing. Did a hot solution cause this?
I will go get a picture of this and load it, give me a few minutes.
Thanks for helping,
Oneal
froth1.JPG

froth2.JPG
 
Oneal58:

Looks like too much urea! I had the same problem.

Dilute the whole batch with distilled water.

Pour half into another 2 liter beaker, then add distilled water to each while stirring.

You only need abot 2 or 3 spoons of urea to do the trick.

It looks like you saturated the solution with it.
 
goldenchild:

I got that double burner at the thrift store for 8 bucks.

My jaw dropped when I seen it sitting there on the shelf, and I snatched it up. I think it gets hotter than the single burner I was using.

Chris:

Those corningware dishes seem indestructable. I find those at yardsales and thrift stores and get them for 2 or 3 dollars apiece. Some even come with covers.

They are essential for the home refiner if you ask me!

thanks - kadriver
 

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