Silver Nitrate and Nitric Acid Question

[butcher]

I cannot say if adding sulfamic acid to a silver nitrate solution would work or not, or be a good or bad idea, or what the products would actually form.

sulfamic acid H3NSO3 is made industrially from Urea CO(NH2)2 and oleum, or sulfur trioxide SO3 and sulfuric acid H2SO4.

sulfamic acid H3NSO3 can be used to form sulfate precipitants in Quantitative Chemical Analysis,
H3NSO3 + H2O --> NH4 + SO4 + H
Precipitants of sulfates of Ba, Ca, Sr, Pb can form.

In nitrous acid sulfamic acid produces sulfuric acid, and nitrogen gas, and water.
HNO2 + H3NSO3 -->> H2SO4 + N2 + H2O
In Nitric acid sulfamic acid produces sulfuric acid, nitrous oxide gas and water.
HNO3 + H3NSO3 --> H2SO4 +N2O + H2O

I cannot say what would happen with a metal nitrate salt like copper or silver nitrate, whether the nitrate ion would form some type of NOx gas, as the metal ion would form a sulfate salt or not, or if their may be some type of silver ammine complex would form or not????

Until I do know what may form, any why, I will try to stay on the side of caution, and keep the sulfamic acid away from my silver nitrate solutions.

 

[solar_plasma]

Until I do know what may form, any why, I will try to stay on the side of caution, and keep the sulfamic acid away from my silver nitrate solutions.

I am with Butcher.

http://oops.uni-oldenburg.de/925/1/miesul09.pdf page 16 and
https://archive.org/stream/gmelinkrautshand53gmel/gmelinkrautshand53gmel_djvu.txt

Silver sulfamate (Silberamidosulfonat (ger.)) is made from ammonium sulfamate and silver nitrate or from sulfamic acid and silver carbonate or from barium sulfamate and silver sulfate, so there is a probability of complicating things (not saying, it doesn't work - Geo already wrote, it worked for him).

 

[solar_plasma]

All of you guys have been so helpful on the forum, helping others including myself with the processes, so thank you for that. I have another question regarding mylars. In the case involving the processing of laptop keyboards, the mylars are all glued together, and when they are separated, there is a sticky adhesive that remains. Should I incinerate the mylar and just obtain the silver that way, attack the adhesive with a solvent or compound, or does the nitric acid remain untouched? I don't want to foul the solution and have more losses than necessary. All feedback is appreciated.

In my experience those adhesives do not cause any problems in more or less diluted acids.

 

[kurtak]

Hello, everyone.
I hope this wasn't a question already answered, as I couldn't find anything on this topic using the search bar. If so, could you redirect me to a post regarding to this topic? If so, that would be great.
Anyway, I plan on doing a Chemistry experiment involving the dissolving of silver into a nitrate form(AgNO3). I plan on using silver mylars from around 40 keyboards to dissolve in a 1 to 1 ratio of concentrated nitric acid (70%) and Hydrogen peroxide, then rinsing each mylar with distilled or deionized water in a squeeze bottle. quote]

PlainsScrapper

we need to get back to your OP --- Note how I highlighted the word "from" in the first underlined above - the first time I read your post I thought you were talking about dissolving the silver with nitric that had already been recovered from the mylars

But now I see you are wanting to actually dissolve the silver off of the mylars using nitric (the second point underlined above)

that is not the way to recover the silver from mylars --- the silver on mylars is recovered using NaOH (lye) there is some discussion on the forum about this - use mylar(s) or keyboard mylar(s) as search key words --- aslso the process is the same as recovering the silver from X-ray film with NaOH - so you could use that as a search as well

You don't want to use nitric to recover the silver directly from mylars

You explained your self good enough - I just mis read it

Edit to add; - also - as I understand it the problem with laptop mylars is that they are glued together with the ink on the inside between the 2 glued pieces so the chems are shielded from getting to the ink & relieving it from the mylar making it next to impossible to recover much if any of the silver from them --- also the ink on laptop mylars "may be" a UV cured ink rather then a silk screen printed ink in which case I am not sure if chem recovery (of any kind) would even work on them

Kurt

 

[kurtak]

butcher

Thanks for the reply & you make some good points as well --- I always just put my copper bus bars on my single burner propane camp stove burner for a bit to burn off any oils or grease - then after it cools down I take over to my bench grinder & buff it in the wire buffing wheel

Movement of the solution, or the copper buss bar can help during the cementing process, insuring the silver ions in solution come into contact with the clean copper metal. Where the ion exchange can take place.

I want to further comment on this - movement of the solution is absolutely important & as you suggested I bubbler works great for this - I use a 4 hose bubbler & you want to make sure the hose goes all the way to the bottom so it keeps the solution at the bottom in motion to bring it "up & out" of the cement collecting in the bottom - other wise the cement will trap silver nitrate so you wont get full recovery --- if you don't have a bubbler be "sure" to give it a "good" stirring from time to time - you want the stirring to be such that it brings all of the solution back up out of the cement

Kurt

 

[PlainsScrapper]

Hello, everyone.
I hope this wasn't a question already answered, as I couldn't find anything on this topic using the search bar. If so, could you redirect me to a post regarding to this topic? If so, that would be great.
Anyway, I plan on doing a Chemistry experiment involving the dissolving of silver into a nitrate form(AgNO3). I plan on using silver mylars from around 40 keyboards to dissolve in a 1 to 1 ratio of concentrated nitric acid (70%) and Hydrogen peroxide, then rinsing each mylar with distilled or deionized water in a squeeze bottle. quote]

PlainsScrapper

we need to get back to your OP --- Note how I highlighted the word "from" in the first underlined above - the first time I read your post I thought you were talking about dissolving the silver with nitric that had already been recovered from the mylars

But now I see you are wanting to actually dissolve the silver off of the mylars using nitric (the second point underlined above)

that is not the way to recover the silver from mylars --- the silver on mylars is recovered using NaOH (lye) there is some discussion on the forum about this - use mylar(s) or keyboard mylar(s) as search key words --- aslso the process is the same as recovering the silver from X-ray film with NaOH - so you could use that as a search as well

You don't want to use nitric to recover the silver directly from mylars

You explained your self good enough - I just mis read it

Edit to add; - also - as I understand it the problem with laptop mylars is that they are glued together with the ink on the inside between the 2 glued pieces so the chems are shielded from getting to the ink & relieving it from the mylar making it next to impossible to recover much if any of the silver from them --- also the ink on laptop mylars "may be" a UV cured ink rather then a silk screen printed ink in which case I am not sure if chem recovery (of any kind) would even work on them

Kurt

Kurt, I appreciate the response, and I will know to stay away from laptop keyboards. However, I agree with the use of NaOH on X-Ray films, but why is using a 1:1 combination of Nitric acid and D.I. Water on mylars a bad idea? There are plenty of posts talking about the use of nitric and water. :?

 

[Barren Realms 007]

Because the yield is so low on them you take a chance of having a lot of excess nitric to deal with.

 

[PlainsScrapper]

I know it has been a while, and that this thread has been quiet, but I have successfully recovered silver powder after a month or two of studying. I decided to give the silver chloride process a try, to good success.
I first dissolved the silver with nitric acid and water in a 1 to 1 concentration. In this case, I ran a small experimental batch from a few keyboards. I used a separate circular dish to wash off the keyboard sheets, which I cut into six pieces each to soak in my bread- sized pyrex dish.
Then, using analytical filter papers, transferred the solution into a beaker, being sure to rinse both of the dishes with a wash bottle filled with D.I. Water. Once that was complete, I prepared an aqueous solution of sodium chloride. Since I used some non- iodized table salt I found at a local grocery store, I dissolved it in water, being sure to filter out the salt solution to remove anti- caking agents from the solution.
Then, I poured the NaCl solution into the silver nitrate, causing a thick white precipitate to be displaced from the solution. I knew that this was silver chloride. After letting it settle overnight, I then used a pipette and took a small sample of the clear liquid and tested the solution by adding a small amount of salt solution to see if any more AgCl would form. Nothing happened, so that was a good sign that all of the AgCl was displaced from the solution.
Next, I filtered out the AgCl solids into a new container, and rinsed with numerous water washes, being sure to remove all of the remaining particles from the beaker. I let it dry in a desiccator, and then used some 30 percent sulfuric acid and added that slowly to water with the silver chloride already in it. I used an aluminum bar that was from a flat piece of aluminum previously used in an iMac G3, and left it in there overnight.
When I came back it was all gray, converted into silver power. After filtering the powder 5 or 6 times, and making sure all of the silver powder was incorporated into the filter paper, I let the silver powder dry, and my experiment was completed.
I also was sure to neutralize any acid used with baking soda for pouring it down the drain.

The attached photo is the finished product. Because of my camera quality, it is quite poor. The silver powder looks to be a bit brown in color, but that is because there wasn't enough light, and was blurry.
I appreciate all of the input and information from all of the members here on the forum. Without any of your contributions, none of this would have been possible. Thank you!

 

[Hartbar]

I’ve been reading this post on cementing silver with copper. Sterling is source.
I’m still not sure how to suspend my copper bar in solution, without it touching bottom of beaker and making sure it’s fully submerged in solution.
My plan is to strictly use 1.2ml of nitric per gram of silver, 50/50 with distilled water, use heat and add the nitric in increments. I’ll add some .999 silver and leave over nite to make sure nitric is used and gone.
I’ll filter, then dilute with distilled water, maybe adding 1/3 of solution volume.
I was thinking of hanging the bars from a glass rod sitting on top of beaker, using electric ties hang bars so they are submerged. Not sure if the ties being in solution is a problem?
Still looking for optimal way to rinse the silver cement after.
Not a lot of info on cementing or rinsing silver cement in Hoke book.

 

[FrugalRefiner]

No need to dilute after the silver is dissolved.

Hang the copper so it is fully submerged.

Add circulation. An aquarium pump bubbling air works well.

Dave

 

[Hartbar]

Earlier in thread Kurt mentions diluting the nitrate helps silver drop and not stick to copper, makes it slower process but worth the time. I’m still figuring how to get bars fully in solution, but not touching bottom of beaker, there is an image in thread of bar in solution, but not sure how it’s hanging, so to speak