SMB or Baking Soda???

[kurtak]

When I am reading something that is beyond my capability of understanding, for example when the chemists, physicists and metallurgists are in their favorite element, I pick up some terms I don't know and search for them in wiki or other sources. Each time I come back to that thread, I understand a little more.

And you do this to me often :!: :mrgreen:

Kurt

 

[joekbit]

As far as the comments about me reading, well I am new to the forum and just now getting a very basic idea on how and where to find questions that were already asked. Such as mine.

Correct - you are NEW to the forum - & what you will find here is that this forum is like no other on the internet :!: --- Here you will find that the active members are in fact accomplished refiners --- meaning they have spent a "great" deal of time reading, studying, researching & applying that which was learned from the reading, studying, researching to have earned the right to call them selves refiners & thereby have also "earned" the right to be a part of this forum

You - just like the rest of us - must also earn this right - & that is done by "first" doing the "required" reading, studying, researching --- you wont get away with simply saying you have - because what you post will make it clearly evident to us as to whether you really have or have not

Example - you said - "I started with hydrochloric and peroxide for the initial burn" --- we do not use acids (with or with out an oxidizer added) to "burn" anything - we use them as solvents to "dissolve" &/or "leach"

Making comments like this (& other things you have said so far) is why Eric (eteck) said --- "If you did this your ignorance on this subject is showing" --- I am quit sure that Eric was not calling you an ignorant person --- rather he was simply pointing out to you that when it comes to the subject of refining you are ignorant about this subject & have "a lot" to learn

If this is something you really want to learn - then you have come to the right place - there is no better place anywhere in the world to learn about the art of refining then right here --- & that is the point --- you have to start by FIRST learning - that means you have start by first reading - & not just reading but rather studying it - which means you have to put the time in doing your own research

Then - once you get a grip on the terminology used & the how, what, why & when of things done - then you can start asking questions that make sense so we can give answers that also make sense

Start by first reading Hokes book (its a free down load here on the forum) & read it until you really understand what she is saying - her book will give you the "basics" of what you need to know & understand about refining

Then spend time searching & reading on this forum (2 to 4 hours a day for 6 to 8 weeks) this will give you a better understanding of the what, how, why & when we as refiners do what we do to call our selves refiners & be a part of this great forum --- it will also give you an understanding as to why we do not put up with "want to be" refiners that think they already know it all

Welcome to the forum - we are all very happy to help those that really want to learn about this - but it FIRST requires that you show enough real interest to do the required "home work" to learn & get on the same page as us so we can actually talk shop when we talk

Kurt

Kurt, and others as well
Yes this is something I am very interested in for a number of reasons. I'm disabled and need something to do, something I can learn from and enjoy. This seems to be both with the potential to earn a little extra money while doing it. I did do an introductory post in the appropriate location.

My apologies for taking statements that others have made incorrectly. One of the very first things I looked at before registering on the forum was the posting dates and how long the users have been members. Very impressive, so I joined. I will refrain from using terms such as "burn" unless I actually burn or incinerate. Hokes book is great, very informative. SO2 is spoken of on page 57.

All this being said, I believe we could call this a solved question, or answered question.

 

[jungle_Dave]

Jokebit,

In sciences we deal with having a great idea and then immediately criticizing it either by ourselves or by our peers.
This is actually a really good thing . You should never take it personally. I did when I started my studies but it passes quickly.
I got into this area of interest due to a back injury that left me bed ridden for the better part of 2 years. Reading, reading again, misunderstanding what I read is all part of the fun and has kept me relatively sane through the whole process.
I hope that the same can be true for you too.

Sodium metabisulfite (SMB) has many many uses both in organic/inorganic chemistry and industrial applications.

The cheapest source I have here is at the pool product store probably the same where you are. BTW also a good place to pick up hydrochloric acid if you are in the US or EU, I have to make my own HCL and nitric acid here.

 

[joekbit]

Well I think I have grown a bit since I first asked this question

Jokebit,

In sciences we deal with having a great idea and then immediately criticizing it either by ourselves or by our peers.
This is actually a really good thing . You should never take it personally. I did when I started my studies but it passes quickly.
I got into this area of interest due to a back injury that left me bed ridden for the better part of 2 years. Reading, reading again, misunderstanding what I read is all part of the fun and has kept me relatively sane through the whole process.
I hope that the same can be true for you too.

Sodium metabisulfite (SMB) has many many uses both in organic/inorganic chemistry and industrial applications.

The cheapest source I have here is at the pool product store probably the same where you are. BTW also a good place to pick up hydrochloric acid if you are in the US or EU, I have to make my own HCL and nitric acid here.

You are so right. I have seen statements about reinventing the wheel in many places on this forum. This goes to the (great idea) you mentioned. The truth is we should always try to reinvent the wheel. that's how we as a species have made it to where we are today. I look at it this way. a wheel is a wheel, but what its made of makes all the difference as to what it can accomplish. The historical fact is that all the minds we consider to have been great men (people) from the past were once ridiculed some even condemned.
edited
In short there is always a better way if we dare to try and find it.

 

[Geo]

Experimenting is good. Here on the forum, we encourage everyone to experiment and find what works for them, safely. When people come to the forum with a concept and unproven theories looking to find acceptance that what they envision will work, that's where the problems start. If someone has preconceived notions about what is right and wrong, it is easy to see. Every attempt to better educate is met with angst and hostility. That's what we try to avoid and sometimes it can be quite harsh. If a new member is putting themselves or their family at risk, we can't just say 'your gonna poke your eye out kid" and let it stay at that. Anything "new" (unless it's something nuclear) has most likely already been tried and proven. Anything that the normal refiner can obtain has been used for thousands of years. Yep, even that. Aside from modern glassware, there's nothing new about refining. It's a proven fact that the Egyptians was electroplating objects with gold nearly 5000 years ago. I don't know why they would want to but it just goes to reason that they could strip gold just as well. Fire assaying is one of the earliest forms of refining and is still the standard for quantitative analysis today. Necessity really is the mother of invention and we have many great and wonderful methods to do what we do. I feel the attitude is more of an air of a person should learn the tried and true methods before they decide to start tinkering with the unknown. Just my opinion.

 

[joekbit]

well said Geo

 

[Harold_V]

The truth is we should always try to reinvent the wheel.

Depends, doesn't it?
What is your objective?

Mine was to own pure gold when it was illegal to do so. To that end, I followed procedures that were known to work. For that, I was rewarded with success, and the founding of a refining business (unintentionally) which was sold when I retired at the relatively young age of 54.

I could just as easily thought myself clever and spent the same amount of time trying to improve on the wheel, which was, for all practical purposes, sufficiently round as it was. YMMV.

great men (people) from the past were once ridiculed some even condemned. Einstein was placed in a mental institution.

Cites, please. Quite frankly, I don't believe it, nor have I been able to uncover anything that would lead me to believe that to be true (I am making reference to your comment about Einstein being institutionalized). I consider that an attempt to disseminate misinformation (not a good idea on this board). If you can not provide cites, please remove that statement from your post. If you do not, it will be removed, along with the balance of your comments.

Harold

 

[artart47]

Hi Joe!
Welcome to the forum. You're on the way with what you've learned so far as is evident by the jar of foils. As you continue to study and gain experience you'll get better and better results and become more efficient. If you aquire components that you haven't yet prosessed, be sure to learn everything you can find before attempting to recover from them. Unfamiliar objects could contain hazerdous material that could cause safety and environmental problems. Cadmium, Beryllium, etc...
As our other members have told you already, you may have dropped more than just the gold and your powder may be in need of a second refining. Something that I did when I first started gold recovery was to store my recovered gold in a jar containing weak HCl and a spoonfull of the copper chloride solution I used to for recovery of foils. The solution will change color as it dissolves contaminents from the gold.
Good luck!
artart47

 

[necromancer]

can the OP or a mod fix the spelling error in the title (if worth while) for ease of searching.

thank you

 

[joekbit]

Hi Joe!
Welcome to the forum. You're on the way with what you've learned so far as is evident by the jar of foils. As you continue to study and gain experience you'll get better and better results and become more efficient. If you aquire components that you haven't yet prosessed, be sure to learn everything you can find before attempting to recover from them. Unfamiliar objects could contain hazerdous material that could cause safety and environmental problems. Cadmium, Beryllium, etc...
As our other members have told you already, you may have dropped more than just the gold and your powder may be in need of a second refining. Something that I did when I first started gold recovery was to store my recovered gold in a jar containing weak HCl and a spoonfull of the copper chloride solution I used to for recovery of foils. The solution will change color as it dissolves contaminents from the gold.
Good luck!
artart47

Thanks
I do a lot of micro testing with any new materials. Hokes calls them acquaintance experiments. I take small amounts of the material and try the different solutions to see what will work best. As of today I have about 6 grams of wet powder, under general chat I posted "example of contamination". Interesting. Take a look if you have the time and make some comments.

edit to add link
http://goldrefiningforum.com/phpBB3/viewtopic.php?f=60&t=21695

 

[lost43ver]

I'm a bleach vinegar salt and sulfuric acid to dissolve gold ore I didn't know what I was doing I had no help, and now I have three different containers with three different colors one is a dark chocolate brown one is a violet purple and one is a gold yellow clearish looking how do I know which one's right

 

[lost43ver]

I'm a bleach vinegar salt and sulfuric acid to dissolve gold ore I didn't know what I was doing I had no help, and now I have three different containers with three different colors one is a dark chocolate brown one is a violet purple and one is a gold yellow clearish looking how do I know which one's right

Instead of laughing at me could you just maybe help me also can I precipitate a bleed solution with electrolysis

 

[Yggdrasil]

Instead of laughing at me could you just maybe help me also can I precipitate a bleed solution with electrolysis

As I said in the other post, put it away in a safe place and study.

 

[Shark]

Learn first, then practice. Avoiding a mistake is way easier than fixing one.

I'm a bleach vinegar salt and sulfuric acid to dissolve gold ore I didn't know what I was doing I had no help, and now I have three different containers with three different colors one is a dark chocolate brown one is a violet purple and one is a gold yellow clearish looking how do I know which one's right

With no help how did you determine these chemicals would be a good place to start? Not being rude, but why did you not go to the source of your chosen method for answers?
These answers are why it is being suggested to set it aside for now and study the forum. Make a plan, let the forum pick it over and offer advice, then move ahead. Just adding more chemicals is not going to be very helpful at this point.

 

[lost43ver]

Learn first, then practice. Avoiding a mistake is way easier than fixing one.


With no help how did you determine these chemicals would be a good place to start? Not being rude, but why did you not go to the source of your chosen method for answers?
These answers are why it is being suggested to set it aside for now and study the forum. Make a plan, let the forum pick it over and offer advice, then move ahead. Just adding more chemicals is not going to be very helpful at this point.

I am doing exactly as instructed. I am a firm believer that ignorance is bliss but only if followed shortly by the pursuit of knowledge. I chose the chemicals based on something I half. Heard a friend of my mother's talking about a few years ago. Obviously I didn't hear it right. Since both have departed this world asking them was obviously out of the question. Furthermore, I knew that if I openly displayed my ignorance to this abundant pool of knowledge I would get a nudge in the right direction or possibly a bunch of harsh taunting from ill mannered individuals. I'm glad it hasn't been the latter.

 

[Thomas M Joseph]

For the completeness and inspired by Harold's post, I'd like to add, that even sulfites and hydrogensulfites are reductants, those equations are fine to calculate the stoichiometry, but practically it is the SO₂ itself, which is the active reductant, because even in aqua almost all SO₂ is dissolved, but not reacted to H₂SO₃. Further, practice shows, excess HCl is needed when using SMB to precipitate elemental gold. Also dry SO₂ is able to reduce finely devided PbO₂ to PbSO₄. As an interesting side note, SO₂ can also work as an oxidizer with strong reductants like SnCl₂. In this case it gets reduced to H₂S. One more reason for undesirable effects of tin(II) in solution (false positive stannous test with excess SO₂ or maybe under circumstances precipitation of contaminants from gold solutions).

Mechanically it is even more complicated: SO₂ (as a Lewis acid) will often build a compound with the oxidizing agent (as a Lewis base) and lead the last one to a lower oxidation state by adding electrons. (look also Hollemann/Wiberg, Inorganic chemistry, Chapters 2.4.1 and 2.5.2 about SO₂ and H₂SO₃)

Please, tell me, if my broken English can be understood, otherwise I should refrain from trying to explain those more complicated subjects. In fact I learn a lot by doing so, to explain something in English as much as reflecting over, what I believe to have understood.

You show a mixed bag of half reactions mixed with unbalanced equations.
Na2S2O5 + 2HCl -> 2NaCl + 2SO2 + H2O,
2HAuCl4 + 3SO2 + 6H2O -> 2Au + 8HCl + 3H2SO4
sorry about improper subscripts but here the balanced equations.

 

[FrugalRefiner]

Subscripts and superscripts are pretty easy. See Chemical Formulas.

Dave

 

[Yggdrasil]

You show a mixed bag of half reactions mixed with unbalanced equations.
Na2S2O5 + 2HCl -> 2NaCl + 2SO2 + H2O,
2HAuCl4 + 3SO2 + 6H2O -> 2Au + 8HCl + 3H2SO4
sorry about improper subscripts but here the balanced equations.

The post you reply to is from 2014 and Solar_plasma has not been on the forum this year.

 

[Thomas M Joseph]

Thank you Dave, will review.