Solvent to solvent conumdrum

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Dr. Poe

Well-known member
Joined
Oct 23, 2011
Messages
298
Last year, while helping some prospectors, I used a solvent to solvent extraction with ethyl acetate. The gold ore was permeated with nano-gold. On the small testing scale, the system worked fine. When we moved to production, the ethyl acetate refused to allow back washing of the gold chloride into strong HCl. By refusing I mean that it wouldn't separate from the HCl by floating to the top. I had to add di-ethyl ether to the ethyl acetate/HCl/HAuCl4 to get it to work. Could it be that massive amounts of gold chloride acid somehow linked these solvents chemically? Maybe the ethyl acetate was changed into something else? Those prospectors had no lab equipment other than glassware. Somebody postulate. :shock:
Dr. Poe
 
we do have some resident chemist on the board Dr.Poe but the average member probably will not be able to converse on a topic such as this. The reason im saying this is if you don't get any immediate responses it wont be because no one cares or they are ignoring you its just that this is well beyond most of our abilties to help.
 
Dr. Poe,

Dare I say it - "you haven't provided enough information to effectively diagnose this problem."

So, I will speculate instead.

First, liquid/liquid separation problems are extremely common in industrial liquid ion exchange ("solvent extraction"). Along with sludges precipitating in the settler, they are probably the most common problems in industry.

Some thoughts:
1. you don't specify diluent. While doing shake-outs in a sep funnel may not require diluent, most SX processes use diluents for a wide variety of technical reasons, including improving separation. Kerosene is the most common diluent.

2. phase modifiers are also very common. The higher alcohols, like decanol, are very common to reduce organic viscosity and improve separation.

3. other species in solution may be poisoning the organic. The most common (for sep problems) is silicic acid, formed by weak acid attack on silica and silicates at some stage in the process. These act like emulsifiers and form a snotty-looking mess.

4. you didn't specify equipment used. If they are using mixer-settlers, overly vigorous mixing can often create an emulsion which is very difficult to break, especially given the limited amount of time typically available in the settler. There is sometimes a fine line between "overly vigorous" and "insufficient" when it comes to mixing. Also, some systems really require "picket fences" in the settlers to assist in breaking the organic/aqueous interface. If they are using columns, then again agitation can play a role - for example, in air-mixed columns, sometimes the air bubbles are too fine and produce local areas of frothy emulsion that is later very difficult to break. I don't have an isotherm for your ethyl acetate/gold system, so I cannot comment on what might be the most appropriate contact system to begin with...

5. acid control - generally this is carefully done in the lab and sometimes completely absent in the plant. Most organic/aqueous systems have ideal acid levels not just for extraction efficiency but also for physical properties. In particular, I have seen quite a few problems when extraction was allowed to become too acidic (since usually the organic is giving off hydronium ions in exchange for the metal ion complex) followed by too weak acid stripping - not only does the extraction efficiency suffer, but often the organic goes either too "thin" or more often too "thick" (making emulsions easier to form).

6. temperature control - it should be obvious, but a lot of organics become more viscous as the temperature declines. They might be running their plant too cold compared to lab conditions.

7. organic degradation - exposure to too much acid can cause the organic to degrade. Degradation products usually make things worse. I don't know how stable ethyl acetone is (but based on the ethyl and the acetone parts, it won't be very stable compared to robust organic extractants like D2EHPA).

8. oil leaks - I have seen this once - an auto-oiled mixer was leaking thick oil/grease into the system, causing all kinds of havoc. Best found by walking around and looking.

I am sure there are other possibilities. I am also sure that there are chemical possibilities related specifically to your extractant (ethyl acetone) but I have zero experience with that one. Feel free to ask me about organophosphates and oximes, which I am much more comfortable discussing...

Best Regards, Gerald
 
Oh, and I just looked up ethyl acetate on Google, and find several things that disturb me just on the wikipedia page that came up first:

1. "Ethyl acetate is rarely selected as a reaction solvent because it is prone to hydrolysis and transesterification." That can't be good...

2. "Ethyl acetate is very volatile and has a low boiling point of 77°C" which means it will be VERY sensitive to operating temperature, can't be used in a column extractor (air will strip it out), probably requires sealed vessels, and with continued changes in actual amount of available extractant (due to vaporization and later condensation, assuming it isn't just blown away by the wind or an exhaust fan) will make for a very unstable SX process.

Just a few more thoughts...

Good luck!

Best Regards, Gerald
 
Geraldo, you are the man! I made it work, now I know why (not just guessing). Thank you very much!
Dr. Poe 8) :idea:
 
Geo, did Geraldo just blow your mind too?
It's amazing the kind of expertise that gets shared here.

Dr. Poe, what did you change?
 
we do have some very knowledgeable people on the forum of different fields. I had no doubt Dr.Poe would get a suitable reply, I just wasnt sure how long it would take. For some reason i was waiting on Lou to come on and give an answer.
 
Geraldo, that was a good post, although I did not understand most of it,
are you a chemist, or is this from experience with ore leaching and organic solvent extraction? I guess I am asking for some background, and where you learned about this. I have read where it was done, but really do not know anybody who has done it.
 
butcher said:
Geraldo, that was a good post, although I did not understand most of it,
are you a chemist, or is this from experience with ore leaching and organic solvent extraction? I guess I am asking for some background, and where you learned about this. I have read where it was done, but really do not know anybody who has done it.

Hi butcher! Thanks for the kind compliment (and the alarming "did not understand" comment).

My background is about 17 years as a Metallurgical Engineer, mainly in process metallurgy in the non-ferrous industry. I spent about a decade working at Cominco's Trail Refinery, which is good for all kinds of unit operations (they use them all...), for lead, zinc, silver, gold, bismuth, cadmium, copper chemicals, antimony chemicals, indium, germanium (lots of solvent extraction involved there), sulfuric acid, liquid SO2, elemental sulfur, ammonium sulfate fertilizer etc. Then some time in various research departments , some time at a large primary copper operation (lots of solvent extraction there too), nickel/cobalt with Inco, etc. and some consulting.

I don't have direct experience in gold ore leaching, and insufficient operating experience in mineral treatment.

As for understanding - perhaps I used some "insider" terminology. I suspect if you took a look at a solvent extraction circuit, you would find it all pretty straight forward. I am not saying all the PROBLEMS are straight forward (there are many, many mysteries!) but the processes themselves aren't really rocket science. If only I could draw pictures on here, instead of my long-winded posts...

Best Regards, Gerald
 
Dr. Poe said:
Geraldo, you are the man! I made it work, now I know why (not just guessing). Thank you very much!
Dr. Poe 8) :idea:
Dear Dr. Poe,

Thank you! I too would love to know what conclusions you came to, what you changed etc.

Best Regards, Gerald
 
Geraldo, sounds like you will be helping us quit a bit here on the forum.

" Processes themselves aren't really rocket science. If only I could draw pictures on
Here, instead of my long-winded posts..."

Geraldo, Rocket science is not really rocket science to a rocket-scientist either.
Most things are simple once you understand them.

I know how you feel about drawing pictures; I can communicate better with drawing pictures also.

I have not really spent any time studying solvent extraction, and with a carbon based (what would seem to me to be a fuel).

I can see how gold bonds to carbon, or can be floated in oils with air,’

To me this actually seems to be some other reactions involved, more closely related to organic chemistry.

I guess I just cannot understand how the emulsions, that sound similar to making soap out of hog fat and wood ashes can extract gold from a solution.
 
O K,
I'm going back to extracting gold from beer. :p :p :p
I can understand that process. :shock:

keep up the good work though.
Tom C.
 
skippy said:
Geo, did Geraldo just blow your mind too?
It's amazing the kind of expertise that gets shared here.

Dr. Poe, what did you change?

I got the system to work by adding ethyl ether. I should have saved my money and added a non-reactant to lighten the over-saturated ethyl acetate. Kerosene (mixed amyltol) would have floated the ethyl acetate above the HAuCl4 without actually pulling gold back out of the backwash of HCl. Ethyl ether, having lightened the solvent would have grabbed some gold
from the HCl acid reversing what action was wanted. Not completely or the whole thing would have failed. A gallon of kerosene would have been much better and much cheaper than several cans of ether. It would also have been a whole lot safer. Trans-esterfication or somehow overloading the system was my main concerns. It didn't occur to me that maybe mixing was too in-vigorous. We did mix way too vigorously . Basically my problem was trying to float too much gold acid.
The specific gravity of both the ethylacetate gold chloride mixture and the muriatic gold chloride became the same preventing separation. Had I added kerosene, I could have save three days of tests. Now I know that if the problem comes again in my life, I will be able to handle it without delay. So, once again, let me say; "Geraldo, you're the man!"
A very grateful Dr. Poe
 

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