Sulfuric Acid

[Anonymous]

Question for the Chemists, using sulfuric acid purchased from the auto parts store, how much common salt would it take to convert to Hydrochloric Acid.

Best Regards
Gill

 

[Anonymous]

Gill,
buying regular old muratic, at least were I live is much cheaper.
I get it for 6.72 a gallon, battery acid 5.25 a quart.

Jim

 

[butcher]

NaCl + H2SO4 ==> NaHSO4 + HCl

formula here show it a mole for mole ratio
but if we use:
2NaCl + H2SO4 ---> 2HCL + Na2SO4
here we can remove salts of sodium sulfate easier
NaCl mole wt 58.44 g / mol
H2SO4 mole wt 98.07 g /mol
battery acid 35% H2SO4 & 65% H2O

here is a caclulator

http://theodoregray.com/PeriodicTable/MSP/BalanceReactions
my guess the amount of sulfuric will give the volume of acid, and excess salt should not hurt the reaction, concentration and amount of water may be key to getting acid or HCl gas,
I think if H2SO4 was concentrated you would generate HCL gas, but if dilute the gas would most likely stay dissolved in the water solution,
so since HCl Azeotrope is about 30% much higher than this would just vapor off as gas, your choice of battery acid sounds good to me, maybe add some boiling water to the salt to predissolve it, making a weaker muratic acid (chill to remove insoluble salts), then evaporate on low heat (check boiling point of acid) concentrate off extra water, to 30% HCL, sorry I don't have time to do the calculation's, it takes me quite a while to do them as I have to look everything up,it takes me a long time from my inexpierience just learning.
please keep us posted Gustvas, If you or someone else don't post volume weight calculations I will work on them.

 

[Anonymous]

Thanks guys for the speedy reply, reading up on the reactivity of metals with acids, thought a dilute sulfuric acid would get rid of the base metals in my ground up ic;s. Learning later that lead is resistant and that tin would require a more concentrated sulfuric acid heated decided to change the game plan, to late though the chips are soaking.

Thinking that the sulfuric would eat my filter papers before the job was completed decided to research sulfuric acid when I found that common salt would convert it into HCL.

One observation that I made from some miscellaneous gold plated goodies removed from the finely ground powder is that they now have no visible gold, it appears that the sulfuric has eaten through to the nickel plating underneath the gold which has now fallen off as a fine powder.

Because everything was in the ball mill the abrasive action makes scratches and rubs on everything present inside the mill exposing the nickel plating underneath the gold for a kick start for the acid to react.

My sulfuric acid 98 percent 20 liters is cheaper than buying HCL from Home hardware or the lumberyard $12.00 for 4 liters.

 

[butcher]

remember, sodium nitrate will make your batch into a poor mans nitric,
it is interesting how we can change things.

 

[Irons]

Poor man's HCL :lol:

This works to some degree but the best way to do this is to distill off the HCl gas into another container, otherwise, it's just more salts to get in the way later.

 

[skippy]

Gustavus, I'm curious what auto parts store sells 98% acid. All I've ever heard tell of is stuff around 50%.

 

[butcher]

Irons good point of distillation, temperature and concentration of product would need attention.
I am not 100% sure this is correct, so maybe I will need a few corrections, which are welcome.

2NaCl + H2SO4 --> 2HCl + Na2SO4

NaCl 58.44 g/mol X 2mol = 116g (2NaCl)
H2SO4 (35%) 98g/mol specific gravity 1.25g/ml
so: 98g/mol devided by1.25g/ml = 78.4 ml H2SO4
HCl 36.46g/mol X 2mol = 72.92g
so if: 35% HCL sp.gr. 1.169g/ml
36.46g/mol devided by 1.169g/ml = 31.17ml X2mol=62.36ml (2HCl)

or if: 20% HCL sp.gr. 1.098g/ml
36.46g/mol devided by 1.098g/ml = 33.20ml X 2mol=66.41ml (2HCl)
HCl acid 20% azetrope constant boiling point 227 deg F
if distilling I think I would try for 35% HCL (or more) and have some water in reciever, if making cold method without distill, I would add hot water to dissolve salt and try for 20%HCl acid and freeze out the sodium sulfate salts

OK I am ready for the chemistry teacher to grade this, not having taken any chemistry please dont fail me I still want to learn.

 

[Palladium]

Poor man's HCL :lol:

This works to some degree but the best way to do this is to distill off the HCl gas into another container, otherwise, it's just more salts to get in the way later.

Hillybilly Chlorine.

 

[Irons]

Gustavus was right.

http://www.jrjohnson.com/home.php?cat=347&sort=orderby&sort_direction=0&page=1

Check out the Nitric price (without deposit)

 

[Barren Realms 007]

It dosen't say anything about a deposit, 165lb drum for $22.50. Sounds cheap.

 

[Irons]

Poor man's HCL :lol:

This works to some degree but the best way to do this is to distill off the HCl gas into another container, otherwise, it's just more salts to get in the way later.

Hillybilly Chlorine.

HCl, Not Chlorine. Hillbilly Chlorine is made from bleach and HCl.

 

[Oz]

It dosen't say anything about a deposit, 165lb drum for $22.50. Sounds cheap.

I gave them a call and first they said they do not carry it anymore. They then checked their computer and said they can order it but there is a 250.00 deposit on the drum. They also gave a rough quote of $500.00 shipping since it is hazardous. It may work out if you are near them so you can avoid shipping if they will order it for you. They are in Roseville, near Minneapolis Minnesota.

 

[Barren Realms 007]

There we go the $22.50 turns into $800.00. I'll make my own for that price. It was worth the try tho. Thanks.

 

[Anonymous]

There we go the $22.50 turns into $800.00. I'll make my own for that price. It was worth the try tho. Thanks.

You give up to easy, ferret out a supplier closer to home, J.R. Johnson is only one of many who supply chemicals to growers.

You can probably transport the small drum yourself with out worrying about Transportation of Dangerous Goods Act, to be sure check with your local authority the D.O.T. call up a highway scale house and ask some questions.

Lead acid batteries a private individual in Canada may transport 500 lbs and under with out having a Dangerous Goods certificate, anything over you could receive a hefty fine and have your truck impounded - just for fun.

Quit often though you have to worry about mixed loads.

For instance when I purchased dynamite the caps could not be transported in the same load, my truck. I learned a lot about blasting out stumps. One very large stump my step son and I loaded 3 sticks, when the blast went off and we returned all that happened was a larger holes under the stump. Rather disgusted, asked my step son of he knew what a bakers dozen was.

Yup we loaded 13 sticks, lit the fuse and headed for safer ground, the blast shook the ground and when the debris settled we returned to find a much larger hole under the stump along with it being quartered. You could have stuffed the whole case of dynamite under that stump and still had room to park a small car.

Instead set fire under it and burned the sucker out, but also received a telephone call from the R.C.M.P., apparently you are supposed to inform your neighbors with a time etc etc that the dynamite charge is going to be set off. All that ruckus over a stump still firmly set into the earth.

Owning a 100 acer Ranch was not large enough for me to have neighbors.

 

[Barren Realms 007]

I have a friend of mine that can get sodium nitrate from a chemical supplier. I have 2 friends that run auto repair shops and the local scrap dealer also. If I start needing it in large quantities there should be a local supplier in our area I'm sure. There are too many chemical manufacuters around here.

Might I suggest a hole in the center of that stump with about 1/2 to 3/4 of a stick. Pack the top of the hole with gravel. blow the thing outward not upward. Or a 2" hole thru the center of it and fill the hole with fertalizer and let it rot out.

We had about a 350 acre field loaded with stumps. We took a track hoe and dug the stumps out and then dug a depper hole and rolled the stumps off in them and filled the holes in. I think the count was around 400 stumps with the larges being around 4' across.

 

[butcher]

had two stumps next to each other, when I finally got them dug out (by hand) the hole was so big I figured why quit, I now have a
10'x10' underground cement cellar with a stair case,
I too have a love hate relationship with stumps.

Here too chemistry works can't dig it out just Psss on it, it breaks down to ammonia then nitrates, and later burn them poor mans nitrate stump remover.