Taking it to a new level

[MMFJ]

OK, I've read through the entire doc on IRIRS Specs (quite an interesting read for those so inclined!) and know a LOT more than I ever thought I'd ever need to know in my life about metals, and recycling in general. (If you are like me, you thought recycling means to quickly separate your trash and if you get it close to the right bin, it is all OK....) <<==== WRONG!!! Get yourself a copy of that doc (latest update at http://www.isri.org/specs) and learn!

So, now, I feel I can ask some at least more intelligent questions...

Knowing what you have you will soon see how they like to take advantage of the unknowing. Like the difference in price from #1 copper to bare bright copper. Most yards won't even pay you for bare bright, they only want to pay you #1 on your bare bright.

Not finding "bare bright" in the doc, I'm not really sure which 'Red Metal' specification you talking about. From what I understand in the doc, No. 1 COPPER WIRE is the 'best' (although there are two specs that say "No. 1 COPPER WIRE", which makes it all the more confusing....) and what I would consider 'bare bright' from the description would be "No. 1 HEAVY COPPER", which comes further down the list (and therefore would pay less?)

About the only thing I can say is that there is, on my end, still a lot to learn about copper! But, your explaination above helps a lot, which I'll have to put against the actual items coming in - since it is 95%+ post consumer stuff, we'll likely have very much 'clean' copper unless we strip the power cords.

You should have 5 boxes just for the different grades of aluminum: 1-sheet, 2-cast, 3-extruded and 4-aluminum with steel, 5-aluminum wire.

In our current scrapping (electronics from lab, tech and such) we get various types (by visual inspection anyway) of aluminum, but I don't really know one from the other. We took a small box of this stuff to sell the other day and got $.50/lb for it, with the buyer claiming he liked the "clean aluminum" (before, we didn't take some of the screws off and once they complained about some of it being painted, but not this time [same place, different buyer...]). The lot was some card cages, various cases, supports, etc. as well as some 'blocks' [thick bricks that look drilled out or milled in some way] as well as some screws and what I would call 'pot aluminum' [guess that's "cast"?], the stuff that is very brittle and looks like a Milky Way bar when broken up. Y'know, if you could get a picture of each type, it would help, I'd think..... I'm also happy to take some pics of various stuff we get and we can play 'ID the metal'....

I do like the 55 gal drum idea - I just need to find some place to get those for free/cheap (I was figuring a way to just cut up those free wooden gaylords into smaller segments, though they would be hard to move around).

This discussion is really helping. I am getting a much clearer picture of the business, the plan and just 'who we are going to be', which is a great feeling!

 

[Geo]

copper transmission lines are considered bare bright copper even though it has a light green oxidation coating on it. the classification of bare bright is #1 wire that has been stripped and has no oxidation, the individual wires are at least as large as the carbon rod in a #2 pencil. bare bright brings on average $1.00 per pound more than #1 copper.

 

[Smack]

OK, I've read through the entire doc on IRIRS Specs (quite an interesting read for those so inclined!) and know a LOT more than I ever thought I'd ever need to know in my life about metals, and recycling in general. (If you are like me, you thought recycling means to quickly separate your trash and if you get it close to the right bin, it is all OK....) <<==== WRONG!!! Get yourself a copy of that doc (latest update at http://www.isri.org/specs) and learn!

So, now, I feel I can ask some at least more intelligent questions...

Knowing what you have you will soon see how they like to take advantage of the unknowing. Like the difference in price from #1 copper to bare bright copper. Most yards won't even pay you for bare bright, they only want to pay you #1 on your bare bright.

Not finding "bare bright" in the doc, I'm not really sure which 'Red Metal' specification you talking about. From what I understand in the doc, No. 1 COPPER WIRE is the 'best' (although there are two specs that say "No. 1 COPPER WIRE", which makes it all the more confusing....) and what I would consider 'bare bright' from the description would be "No. 1 HEAVY COPPER", which comes further down the list (and therefore would pay less?)

About the only thing I can say is that there is, on my end, still a lot to learn about copper! But, your explaination above helps a lot, which I'll have to put against the actual items coming in - since it is 95%+ post consumer stuff, we'll likely have very much 'clean' copper unless we strip the power cords.

You should have 5 boxes just for the different grades of aluminum: 1-sheet, 2-cast, 3-extruded and 4-aluminum with steel, 5-aluminum wire.

In our current scrapping (electronics from lab, tech and such) we get various types (by visual inspection anyway) of aluminum, but I don't really know one from the other. We took a small box of this stuff to sell the other day and got $.50/lb for it, with the buyer claiming he liked the "clean aluminum" (before, we didn't take some of the screws off and once they complained about some of it being painted, but not this time [same place, different buyer...]). The lot was some card cages, various cases, supports, etc. as well as some 'blocks' [thick bricks that look drilled out or milled in some way] as well as some screws and what I would call 'pot aluminum' [guess that's "cast"?], the stuff that is very brittle and looks like a Milky Way bar when broken up. Y'know, if you could get a picture of each type, it would help, I'd think..... I'm also happy to take some pics of various stuff we get and we can play 'ID the metal'....

I do like the 55 gal drum idea - I just need to find some place to get those for free/cheap (I was figuring a way to just cut up those free wooden gaylords into smaller segments, though they would be hard to move around).

This discussion is really helping. I am getting a much clearer picture of the business, the plan and just 'who we are going to be', which is a great feeling!

Let me answer this way: Now you will know more about what you have and that's where the battle will begin. Getting the buyers to pay you for what you have can be frustrating. I've found that when I know what I have, I go to the office and talk to someone other than the guy running the scale. Tell him what I have and that he can look at it and make me an offer and I'm batting 100 on that route as I always get paid more then what the guy at the scale wanted to give me. You will (now) most likely know more then your buyer and if he feels you won't be able to find any one to buy what you know you have he will stand his ground. And that's the battle and that's why I say find the foundry or mill or manufacturer or whoever and sell directly to them. You won't be able to take everything to a mill but when and if you find one you can find out what they want the way they want it, in what minimum quantity and you can tailor your operation accordingly.

Plastic 55gal drums? Check larger automotive repair shops (they get antifreeze in them). Any kind of company that goes through tons of food (casinos) will have food grade blue barrels in various sizes like 15gal. that pickles come in. Steel fab shops will get cutting fluid in plastic 55gal. drums.

Man I'm gonna need a smoke after this and I don't smoke.

The 3 or 5 panel gaylords are nice if you can find a good supply of them because you can fold them for storage, I'm sure the wooden boxes don't fold. But whatever you can get for free. Also, if you don't cut the whole top off the barrels, you can stack them. They make a barrel clamp for forktrucks (forklifts).

Another good place to find a steady supply of material is a town or small city that has their own utilities, to include electricity. Lots of copper, brass, silver plated brass, aluminum, the list goes on.

Do you have a business plan? If not you should, and keep it updated as this is your guide as a company and gives you quick reference and direction for where you want to go with your company. And if you ever want a business loan it will make life easier. Have you addressed your company structure? Sole proprietor, partnership, LLC, Corporation, non-profit? Liability policy is something to consider. I've had a S-corp. which failed due to funding and my current business is a LLC that I've been running since 1994, both of which offer protection of your personal assets in liability. You can opt to stay under the radar for now but at some point you will want to claim your expenses.

I'll try to get some pic's of some scrap up for you.

 

[bobinpasask]

If you want some smaller barrels go to a laundry. They get washing chemicals in them (you will have to triple rinse them) and they are very thick plastic. The oness that I got are about 15 gallon ones.
Just cut out half the top and leave the handles on so you can lift and tip them. Makes it easier on the back.
Hope this all works out for you.

 

[glondor]

Take any buyer at any price ( the best you can get of course) for the cheap stuff and keep it moving out. BUT.. Keep looking for better prices from other buyers. Do not stockpile cheap crap. Get rid of it. Shop prices hard for the most valuable stuff. Some of the better materials can be stockpiled until the right price is found. Keep the crap moving out .

 

[trashmaster]

If you need 55gl. drums :roll: then go to your local automatic car wash . You know the 3 min drive thru..

They get there cleaning solution im them . :roll: They throw they in the dumpster. :twisted:

One of the solutions they use is ( Sodium Hydroxide) it is used as a prewash.. :mrgreen:

 

[MMFJ]

Thanks to all for the input and ideas - some great stuff here for the small guy that wants to take it up a notch and actually make a living from scrapping e-waste items (or, at least, get a good grasp toward it!).

Another nice resource I've come across in looking for buyers is a page with nice pictures along with their description of the various barrels, buckets and gaylords described by several on this thread (and especially Smack) - it helped me a lot to get a real idea of what to separate and how, I trust it will help other newbies as well... http://www.ocrecycling.com/productsOCRecycle.html#

I have yet to contact them about pricing, etc., but will today. I'm finding it rather difficult to get pricing out of these 'big boys' (and I find that really odd, but not unexpected after reading the comments above...), though working on it every day. I am going to update my 'signs' to incorporate pictures like these to make it easier for separating material, and use some of their descriptive ideas as well as some from the ISRI docs to make it very clear what we need in each container.

For anyone that wants to 'take it to a new level', be sure you understand what you are getting into - there is a LOT of preliminary work (or certainly should be!) before you take in your first piece of scrap! And, there is always something else you need to learn or research. In other words, it is just like any other business, it takes time and dedication to make it successful! Thank goodness for this forum where you can pick up a bunch of pointers before you start (though, the real work is still up to you to do!)

 

[MMFJ]

As an update, I have found my 'answer' to separation issues, and it works out great for selling/shipping out as well.

I spoke with my buddy that does crate construction and he told me he (and various movers, in case you don't have a crate builder handy...) get TONS of old cardboard moving boxes all the time. In his case, he actually gets paid to pick them up, then keeps the ones he can reuse and gets paid again when he uses them (my kind of transaction!).

All the 'beat up' ones, he's now holding for me (hey, he doesn't have to haul them to the recycler for pennies...)

I took the "DISHPACK" as a standard size - seems it ships UPS pretty well and you can put about 150 lbs of boards (UPS max) in it tightly. We've shipped several boxes out to boardsort and seems they hold up just fine.

Here's a thread with some pics of my shop, we built the workbench just high enough to slide boards into the boxes and still not have too high a worktable (seems it is at 39" - a bit high for some, but works out good for staging if nothing else (I tend to tear down on a rolling cart that has a 'trough' which keeps tools handy and my helper likes a short table with a lip on it as well).
http://goldrefiningforum.com/phpBB3/viewtopic.php?f=38&t=12362&p=137475#p137453

We just toss the boards in as we tear down and as the box gets full (or if time permits earlier), we put motherboards 'flat' against the bottom and sides, then fill in the middle with other stufff (as best as possible...). As the motherboard box fills faster than the others, we use it for shipping most often. As most of the stuff is already in there, we just weigh it, then pack in other stuff as we have space.

Slap some tape on the top, stick in a 'new' box (from my buddie's stash of 'beat up' ones), tape it open, a quick label, and we are back in the tear-down mode!

So far, it has worked out very well for the influx we have, though I think this system will max out somewhere around 150 computers a week. Right now, we are taking in a lot of various low-yield e-waste that is piling up (stereos, DVD players, printers etc.) that we need to tear down though we are still focusing on the higher yield stuff to recoup some of the cash I had to outlay to build out the room and get the forklift, etc. (as well as keep a beer fund going!

Things come in spurts, but if you are looking to make it a bigger operation, you need someone focused on bringing in more, more and MORE stuff. It is all out there, you just have to find the folks that are hording it and get it from them!

 

[steyr223]

hello everyone
nice stuff good information. I have 1 question
what do you do when your yard won't give you the price for say bright and shiny that
Is to ISRI specs
but will give you better prices then everybody else on everything else
And you dont whant to make waves
Sorry one more
Hows this "will match or beat any price"
At the scale with receit in hand from another yard
They wont match,so you go to the office they say
Of course we will match the price, but sorry the reseat
has to be from today
So why would'nt I scrap metal at the other place then
Here is the kicker... I have a deal with this yard for 70 cents a pound on stainless better than yourany otther yard In town
Thanks steyr223

 

[Geo]

sell what brings the best price at one yard and take the other stuff to the yard that pays the most for that. theres no code that says you must sell all your scrap at one place.

 

[steyr223]

True but gas wow
Im at a yard right now
I called and specifically asked if the
precious yard and the steel yard closed
at the same time and they said yes
Now im here and the precious yard closed
20 min ago
5 gal of gas ouch

Sorry off subject im just venting(lnstead of burning the
Place to the ground) see you guys are helping keep
People alive with out even knowing :lol:
Thanks steyr223

 

[joem]

True but gas wow
Im at a yard right now
I called and specifically asked if the
precious yard and the steel yard closed
at the same time and they said yes
Now im here and the precious yard closed
20 min ago
5 gal of gas ouch

Sorry off subject im just venting(lnstead of burning the
Place to the ground) see you guys are helping keep
People alive with out even knowing :lol:
Thanks steyr223

You just have to get into a schedule, know when closings and breaks are, know who pays the best, time your trips in a circular pattern, and try to schedule pick ups before after & during breaks in your day job. I bring in all my steel during the week and non ferrous, wire, copper, batteries, and high end stuff on Saturday mornings ( that's when they don't take steel) with the kids and then we stop at McD's for a breakfast on the way back. You'll learn how to plan your time with the little mistakes you do. Don't worry you'll get it.

 

[steyr223]

Sorry guys totally off subject But I gots to answer
Thanks joem
1 this is my day job for 4 years now
2 I have a route, wanted to try a new yard
being they were open Sunday
3 I have been doing atm and store money boxes
What 7/11 drops there money in for in case of
robbery
The company I cant say is doing updates I get 12-15 per week .
They take about 3 hrs to strip
90 lbs to start. 50 lbs of stainles,12 lbs of cast aluminum
15 lbs of steel 2 lbs of pcb and some #3 wire
It would appear that im losing due to always being broke
They take up my time just loading and unloading. I keep telling
Myself it will get better as I have near 100 of them. Soon.....
Thanks steyr223 thats all I will say. Back to subject

 

[MMFJ]

Sorry guys totally off subject But I gots to answer
Thanks joem
1 this is my day job for 4 years now
2 I have a route, wanted to try a new yard
being they were open Sunday
3 I have been doing atm and store money boxes
What 7/11 drops there money in for in case of
robbery
The company I cant say is doing updates I get 12-15 per week .
They take about 3 hrs to strip
90 lbs to start. 50 lbs of stainles,12 lbs of cast aluminum
15 lbs of steel 2 lbs of pcb and some #3 wire
It would appear that im losing due to always being broke
They take up my time just loading and unloading. I keep telling
Myself it will get better as I have near 100 of them. Soon.....
Thanks steyr223 thats all I will say. Back to subject

This is good background info for everyone to see - and EXACTLY what joem was telling you

You just have to get into a schedule

- however, there is not one person on this (or any) board that can make those decisions for you.

It really sounds like you have a great influx (one of the more difficult things to get started), but it is mostly low-grade/value stuff. You should maybe ask your boss if there is some way for you to tap on into the other ewaste stream that is created by these stores (I'm sure there is some, somewhere...) - doing just scrap metal can make some cash, but as you say, it is a LOT of work and the overall pay is low/hour most of the time.

You say you get 2lb of pcb - is that some form of ewaste board (like a computer board or something)? If it is, there are many on this board that would buy it from you, certainly after you get several pounds (to offset the shipping cost). Put a picture of one on here and folks can give you ideas.

Otherwise, you sound like it is all there for you, and you simply have to get a grasp on the best flow that suits your time, personality and desired income level.

Keep us informed on your progress!

 

[steyr223]

Thank you
I get $2.00/lb after I pull the pins

 

[joem]

Thank you
I get $2.00/lb after I pull the pins

Keep searching for buyers. I can pull pins, cpu. flats, and still get full price ($3.00/lb) from a local buyer and a better price with these things on - if I save up and drive it a member on this forum. Get the money you can as you ( and all of us) need it but keep calling and asking questions. One of the best trip ( last spring) I made with boards was a 10 hour return trip and $2400 cash in my hand. Just keep at it.

 

[NobleMetalWorks]

How do you "dump" a gaylord? I can never seem to do it right without destroying the box. Any tips?

Silversaddle, they make forklifts that rotate to dump the pallets.

A pallet swing with a counterweight might work better and be a little safer. I have seen one, not sure if it was custom made or not. The Gaylord could be rolled in on a pallet jack, then when the production disassemble line needed replenishment, a simple lever was geared so that it moved the counterbalance and the pallet swing rolled up and spilled it's items onto the sorting table. The Gaylord would sit in a wire cage allowing the box to stay totally in tact.

I am not so sure, for safety reasons, I would use a forklift of any type. Just a standard lift weighs thousands of lbs. I have driven lifts for years, forklift and pedestrians just simply don't mix well. And if the driver is not skilled, you can wipe out expensive equipment trying to use a rotating lift. Not to mention that if you hit a sorting table, even if it is bolted to the cement floor, you are going to send it flying, and if people are around you could injure them as well. Then there is always the chance of actually hitting someone with the bank end as you make your turn to leave the area. I would unload a Gaylord by hand before using a lift that close to the work area, or people.

But I might also have misunderstood your set up, or not taken into consideration the safety measures you plan, so I apologize ahead of time if that is the case, no offense intended.

 

[MMFJ]

How do you "dump" a gaylord? I can never seem to do it right without destroying the box. Any tips?

Silversaddle, they make forklifts that rotate to dump the pallets.

A pallet swing with a counterweight might work better and be a little safer.

This was my original thought, though didn't know the name of it. As our work area has now had some 'trial by fire' testing, we are tweaking the process and storage of the scrap, moving around boxes and changing sizes to match the influx, etc.

Thank goodness we've had a few weeks of testing time before the 'big day' meeting, which will happen next Monday. It has, at times, been pretty busy, with about a full gaylord of stuff hitting in a single day - making a serious test for us, and a massive learning experience in total.

One of the things that still remains to be clear is IF we really need a dumping area at all - we have found that two people can clear out a 'gaylord' (at least, our test one) in about three hours. And, as it gets close to the bottom, as long as it is a 40" high one, we can reach just about everything by hand, or a small helper stick, etc. Worst case, one can jump in there pretty easily to clear out the last bits, or just heave it over manually and let that last part spill on the floor.

Given a lot more floor space and 2 - 3 times the influx we are planning to process, I think there would be some time saved in having a dump table setup of sorts (I'm thinking of 4-6 people, perhaps 2 per station that have a rolling table they can go grab a load and go back to their sorting area or just one long table that has some sort of way to scatter the load {or just have the people change positions now and then} and share the work).

Seems hundreds of ways available, all of which will, as most things do, work themselves out as/when the emergency arises (which is why, for those new folks reading this, nobody has perfect answers for you, and you should simply move ahead {in a SAFE MANNER} and jump past that fear (note that I do NOT recommend jumping in with chemical stuff - read this board for safe and sane methods!). I do recommend that you also post your ideas here as there are some great minds around here that happily share their thoughts and experience for us all to learn from, everyday!

 

[Smack]

MMFJ, see if you can find a pallet tipper. Don't want to bend any more then absolutely necessary.

 

[MMFJ]

Well, the 'big day' came, and we had a really great meeting - started off good at one of the big stores, went well, then she took me to see another, even bigger store, and she even invited me to lunch (and she paid...) - everything going just like I thought it should....

Then, she took me back to my scooter (yes, I even told her I was going to take it to our meeting - she liked the fact that I really do live the 'less waste' lifestyle...) and the story changed, a lot....

She said she was going to meet three other groups in town (this never came up before - she may be playing the "I don't have to deal with you" card, or maybe the "There's others out there looking for this business so you better bid high" one, I don't know) and that I'd have to submit my ideas to her by week's end and she'll make a decision by next week.

So, I sent her a plan, now just waiting to see what happens.

In the meantime, though, I got a couple of HUGE loads brought in of 'casino boards' (pretty high quality, not your everyday computer stuff) along with a nice bunch of motherboard stuff, so I've been really busy just taking care of that.

Some days, it seems like I really don't need (or can't handle) the 'big' contract, though on those days I get caught up, I wonder just what I will do unless I get it (for anyone following this thread and considering taking your business to the next level, just know that this kind of thinking happens - a LOT!