tips for a noobs first trip to refiner

[js112358]

First time post, I have searched for questions like this but haven't found a set of definitive answers.

After buying and acid testing some karat gold, I am planning my first to visit a refiner tomorrow. I was looking for some tips to avoid getting cheated. The guy who runs this refinery was referred to me by a friend in the business who I trust, but I would like to feel closer to 100% secure. He quoted me 98% on gold 90 on silver, so far so good (I'm not bringing in much by professional standards).

I was thinking of asking to watch the melt weighing and xrf just to get a good ballpark figure before handing my metal over. Based on your experience, is asking for something like that closer to standard for first time transactions, or completely paranoid? If that isn't a good idea, what can I do besides my own tests at home to ensure that I won't get screwed? From what I can tell so far, margins are too thin to take any chances.

Thanks!

 

[Johnny5]

While there are some honest refiners out there, I do not believe your paranoia is unwarranted.
Many years ago we had a thread on the forum here, where a lot of us were discussing different ways that we had heard about refineries being dishonest towards their customers. One particular member regaled us with an interesting one. If memory serves, the young man worked for an individual that had been inserting copper slugs into a hollowed out graphite rod that the refiner had been using to stir the melts from the customers. Well of course the copper would end up melting, and diluting down the melt with copper, therefore giving a skewed result in the refiners favor.

My point is, there are a thousand ways a refiner can take advantage of an unsuspecting seller. Always remember the adage "Luck favors the prepared." It's by no means a guarantee, but at the very least it will increase your odds of having a favorable experience at the refiner.
One of my oldest friends used to say, "The refiner is the last liar." To this day I will never wait for a settlement from a refinery, nor will I allow someone else to toll refine my material. I either refine it myself, or sell it outright.

 

[snoman701]

If they have an issue with you watching the melt, they are probably not someone that you want to sell to. I've used a couple different buyers, and they were both very happy to show you their process.

You should be getting paid on assay of the post melt weight, so if they add copper, it wouldn't matter. The pre-melt weight is just a courtesy to you, so that you can observe melt loss. The amount of melt loss varies with material. If you are melting a lot of weighted sterling, with solder joints and pitch remnants...it can be significant.

Following melt, they will either sample metal by pin following a good stir, or they will sample with XRF after drilling the bar in a few places. Weight should be taken before drilling, so any metal removed is paid on.

For the most part, if you are taking a mix of karat scrap, expect actual assay to show 2 points under calculated...as everything except old european/british gold will be under-karat by 1/2-1 karat.

I really don't think gross theft is all that common. Those guys don't stay in business. Word travels fast. Theft of 1/2-1% is much more common, as it's much harder to detect....thankfully, it's also much more palatable. Which is one of the things that makes it harder to detect.

 

[g_axelsson]

No measurement is better than the precision in what you use to measure with. I suppose that XRF needs to be calibrated regularly or at least checked against known good standards. I don't know what opportunity there is to calibrate an XRF to be off a bit or if it even happens, but it's easy to check.

Bringing a pure gold sample or one with well known composition to prove that the XRF is properly calibrated is something that is mentioned now and then. Gold coins are quite good samples, both pure gold or alloys. The alloy is well known and don't vary a lot. A properly calibrated XRF should show the alloy within error margins.

Göran

 

[js112358]

Thanks to everyone who replied. I did end up watching the melt, lost 1-2% per batch. I will ask next time to check the xrf with a 9999 gram or something.

Overall, the guy was pretty easygoing and let me watch the melt. He seemed to confirm my friend's recommendation that he was solid and no bs. I asked him to xray a couple of unmarked brooches from garage sales before melt, turned out to be 14k and 18k. Money hit my bank at midnight. All in all it turned out to be a good experience.

 

[js112358]

Oh and by the way, do any of you who deal with refiners melt your scrap into a dore bar before bringing it in? I figured this might be a good way to ensure that small pieces don't go missing.

 

[FrugalRefiner]

It sounds like you've found a pretty good refiner to work with. Care to share who it is?

While it may be beyond what you want to do at this point, one of the best ways to ensure you don't get cheated is to refine the gold yourself. If you refine it, melt it, and end up with a shiny button with a good pipe, you can be pretty sure of the purity. Then a refiner can't cheat you by telling you your gold is only 90% pure.

Dave

 

[js112358]

It sounds like you've found a pretty good refiner to work with. Care to share who it is?

While it may be beyond what you want to do at this point, one of the best ways to ensure you don't get cheated is to refine the gold yourself. If you refine it, melt it, and end up with a shiny button with a good pipe, you can be pretty sure of the purity. Then a refiner can't cheat you by telling you your gold is only 90% pure.

Dave

Dave, I'll be there tomorrow and will ask his permission. The reason I'm hesitant to share his location right away is because its a secured area, and he told me that he wasn't normally supposed to allow people back there. I wouldn't want to get him in any trouble.

I would love to do my own refining as it seems fascinating. Unfortunately, I live in a condo so installing a fume hood would be impossible for now. It's on my list for some point in the future. I also assume that having 995+ pure puts one in a way stronger position to negotiate 99%.

Do you know of any good threads that discuss the profitability of refining either dental or karat scrap? I tried running the numbers on silver recovery vs nitric consumed and time invested, with some degree of success. Some details remain hazy, for instance, I haven't seen any rough figures on pgm recovery for either of the two categories.

 

[goldenchild]

98% on gold and 90% on silver seems to be the normal going rate. You'll only get 99% on your gold if you're bringing in serious weight on a regular basis. Think accounts. As pointed out by others, an honest refinery should have no problem showing you various parts of the process such as the melt or XRFing. They should also provide you a pin sample of the melt if requested. This way you can get/do your own independent verification. Which brings me to another technique.

I know you said you can't do any refining where you are but I'd like to throw this out there for others. If you don't want to go full scale refining but can at least set up a small melting operation you can take all of your scrap and melt it together. You have to make certain the melt is homogeneous. Bar or button you can then drill out a small sample. Unless you have a tool that can remove an actual plug you can use a normal small bit on a drill and remelt the swarf. 1 gram is good 2 grams is better. You can then have someone other than the refiner you want to sell to do an assay of some sort.

If possible to refine yourself you will obviously be able to get near exact quantity of gold you should expect from your dore. On a scale this small even someone that doesn't want to get into full scale refining can go into a refinery with a much better idea of what they have. But once you do it you'll most likely have so much fun you'll go full tilt :lol:

ETA: Think about the silver you're losing if not refining yourself