too much NaNo3 as a prticipian?
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maynman1751
Well-known member
You have to tell us more. What did you process, how much, what process, etc.?
Maybe the brown 'mud' IS your gold!
Maybe the brown 'mud' IS your gold!
OK, I dissolved about 20 ceramic CPU s, that is seven grams of gold in my calculation, in AR about half a liter. And didn`t all gold dissolved something was undissolved so never mind. After filtering and cooking AR to neutralized nitric acid (I think I made a mistake cooking only once, cause I thought that nitric all gone since the not all gold dissolved) And when the AR gone about 0,1 liter put water 0,5 liter, heated and put some sodium nitrate to participate and nothing hapend put sam more water and still nothing, my thinking was that id too much water so I cooked once more to reduce water and put same more sodium nitrate and still nothing and when i put on the heat again there was changed color from dark brown and yellow to muddy green and that mud was going slowely on the bottom and there it is I will send some pictures.
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Go back to reading Hoke's book. You clearly do not understand what you're doing.
If, in the process of extracting values, you find undissolved metals, why would you expect that you have anything of value in the solution? Unless what you are dissolving is solid value, with no base metals present, any values that may have been dissolved will have been cemented by the remaining base metal.
As I said, you need to return to reading. Without the basic understanding of how these processes work, you'll struggle endlessly, never knowing what you have, or why you have it.
Read Hoke. Read Hoke again. Read Hoke until you UNDERSTAND what she teaches.
Harold
If, in the process of extracting values, you find undissolved metals, why would you expect that you have anything of value in the solution? Unless what you are dissolving is solid value, with no base metals present, any values that may have been dissolved will have been cemented by the remaining base metal.
As I said, you need to return to reading. Without the basic understanding of how these processes work, you'll struggle endlessly, never knowing what you have, or why you have it.
Read Hoke. Read Hoke again. Read Hoke until you UNDERSTAND what she teaches.
Harold
maynman1751
Well-known member
What Harold said plus you certainly don't precipitate with sodium nitrate!!!!!!!!
Read and study all of the blue entries in my signature line below this comment.
You sure as hell aren't ready to be doing what you're doing.
You're going to end up hurting yourself or others. You're working with some mighty dangerous chemicals and processes here.
One wrong move and you could be seriously injured or killed!!!! NO B.S.!!!!
Read and study all of the blue entries in my signature line below this comment.
You sure as hell aren't ready to be doing what you're doing.
You're going to end up hurting yourself or others. You're working with some mighty dangerous chemicals and processes here.
One wrong move and you could be seriously injured or killed!!!! NO B.S.!!!!
I'm going to second and third what harold and maynman1751 said. What you have said is way off and you need to read. Why are you trying to drop something when you said that not everything had went into solution, that's a no no right off the bat. Also sodium nitrate is used for poor man's AR instead of using nitric acid for AR. I would say put everything away and stop what you are doing and read then read some more and once you think your ready and understand re read it till it all makes since before you ever start. I am also new to this and it is possible, just read a lot and start off small!!
Tyler
Tyler
Thans for warnings, I know that is dangerous but I allready participate some gold with sodium itrate from AR, and the last time something went wrong and I dont know what and I ask for you halp please if you know what hapend to tell me. It is hard for me ro find Smb in my country, my be it will be easier to prticipate with smb? and tell me how to kill nitric some other way instead of cooking?
pattt
Well-known member
Hi, cvikatore,
Like said before : NaNO3 is NOT a precipitant. Sodium nitrate is the chemical compound with the formula NaNO3. To make your "poormans AR".
If it is difficult to find smb for you, I would give it a try with copperas (iron II sulfate), You can make that yourself if you don't find it. (search, read)
But also, like said before You do need to do much more reading :!: :!:
All is on this forum, and the book to read (Hoke's) you can download for free (see for the links in the forum)
Do you have stannous chloride ? Do you have a standard gold test solution? (search, read)
What will you do with the wastes?? (search, read)
The more reading you do , the better your questions will be, the more help you will get here.
precipitant, precipitate, but not prticipan, participate.
Pat
I hope you will do everything you do safely, for you and all living things around you :!:
Pat
Like said before : NaNO3 is NOT a precipitant. Sodium nitrate is the chemical compound with the formula NaNO3. To make your "poormans AR".
If it is difficult to find smb for you, I would give it a try with copperas (iron II sulfate), You can make that yourself if you don't find it. (search, read)
But also, like said before You do need to do much more reading :!: :!:
All is on this forum, and the book to read (Hoke's) you can download for free (see for the links in the forum)
Do you have stannous chloride ? Do you have a standard gold test solution? (search, read)
What will you do with the wastes?? (search, read)
The more reading you do , the better your questions will be, the more help you will get here.
precipitant, precipitate, but not prticipan, participate.
Pat
I hope you will do everything you do safely, for you and all living things around you :!:
Pat
Chemical names are important, prefixes and suffix in their name is also important.
Sodium metabisulfite Na2S2O5 (we use to precipitate gold), (sometimes new members confuse this with sodium metabisulfate)
Notice the ending in the names, a sulfite SO3 is a different chemical compound than the compound of sulfate SO4, notice the difference in their names ite and ate, these denote the oxidation state or valence, how the chemical reacts, which can make a big difference in their chemistry.
Nitrate NO3, is a different chemical than nitrite NO2.
Sodium nitrate NaNO3 will oxidize gold in an acidic solution.
The Hydrogen from the acid (HCl) can form HNO3 in solution (the principle used in poor-mans aqua regia to dissolve gold).
Sodium nitrite NaNO2 can be used to reduce gold, or precipitate gold from solution, I have never used it or studied its use, so I cannot comment on it further at this point.
Although Hoke discusses it in her book.
Notice these two similar compounds with different suffix in their names, which have different oxidation states, can make a big difference in the chemistry with gold in acidic solutions.
Names of chemicals are important, this is a major reason we insist on not using texting lingo, and expect users to spell check, that and many do not speak English and rely on translation to read, if we spell it wrong the translation comes out wrong.
Ferrous sulfate, also called copperas (FeSO4 10 H2O) can easily be made with a fairly pure source of Iron (transformer iron laminates are fairly pure soft iron, if you burn off the shellac and wash them), dissolving the iron in a very dilute sulfuric acid (10% H2SO4) will give a green solution of FeSO4, heating this solution to crystallize the bright green copperas will give you a really pure copperas salts, store these ferrous sulfate salts wet with a few drops of H2SO4 acid to keep the crystals fresh, store in them plastic HDPE bottle to keep them from air, (as air can oxidize them to a white-brown salt of iron oxide/hydroxide that will not work to precipitate gold, the copperas is also used to test for gold in a spot plate (a brown ring of precipitated gold around the crystal indicates gold in solution) very useful also when PGM metals are in a gold solution in the test we can remove gold and retest for PGM's (where gold may mask the color reaction of the PGM test).
Study is important, read Hoke's and the forum, the suggestions above by our members, will help you become a better gold refiner, and help to keep you and your neighbors safer.
Sodium metabisulfite Na2S2O5 (we use to precipitate gold), (sometimes new members confuse this with sodium metabisulfate)
Notice the ending in the names, a sulfite SO3 is a different chemical compound than the compound of sulfate SO4, notice the difference in their names ite and ate, these denote the oxidation state or valence, how the chemical reacts, which can make a big difference in their chemistry.
Nitrate NO3, is a different chemical than nitrite NO2.
Sodium nitrate NaNO3 will oxidize gold in an acidic solution.
The Hydrogen from the acid (HCl) can form HNO3 in solution (the principle used in poor-mans aqua regia to dissolve gold).
Sodium nitrite NaNO2 can be used to reduce gold, or precipitate gold from solution, I have never used it or studied its use, so I cannot comment on it further at this point.
Although Hoke discusses it in her book.
Notice these two similar compounds with different suffix in their names, which have different oxidation states, can make a big difference in the chemistry with gold in acidic solutions.
Names of chemicals are important, this is a major reason we insist on not using texting lingo, and expect users to spell check, that and many do not speak English and rely on translation to read, if we spell it wrong the translation comes out wrong.
Ferrous sulfate, also called copperas (FeSO4 10 H2O) can easily be made with a fairly pure source of Iron (transformer iron laminates are fairly pure soft iron, if you burn off the shellac and wash them), dissolving the iron in a very dilute sulfuric acid (10% H2SO4) will give a green solution of FeSO4, heating this solution to crystallize the bright green copperas will give you a really pure copperas salts, store these ferrous sulfate salts wet with a few drops of H2SO4 acid to keep the crystals fresh, store in them plastic HDPE bottle to keep them from air, (as air can oxidize them to a white-brown salt of iron oxide/hydroxide that will not work to precipitate gold, the copperas is also used to test for gold in a spot plate (a brown ring of precipitated gold around the crystal indicates gold in solution) very useful also when PGM metals are in a gold solution in the test we can remove gold and retest for PGM's (where gold may mask the color reaction of the PGM test).
Study is important, read Hoke's and the forum, the suggestions above by our members, will help you become a better gold refiner, and help to keep you and your neighbors safer.
bswartzwelder
Well-known member
- Joined
- Oct 24, 2011
- Messages
- 660
Butcher,
I worked with transformers for approximately 16 years from 1970 to 1986. I even had the pleasure of designing, building, and winding some transformers. One in particular was for a ham radio friend who needed a transformer with a 120 volt primary and 3 or 4 secondary windings with voltages ranging from 6 volts up to about 500 volts.
The "laminations" for the transformers are made from steel, but have "impurities" added to enhance their magnetic behavior. The names for the two steels are hipersil and hipernik. Both of these are the trade names of Westinghouse Electric Corporation, East Pittsburgh Division, where I worked. Hipersil steel has silicon added to the steel and hipernic has nickel added. Hipernik can be as much as 50% nickel. I don't know how much silicon is added to the hipersil cores, but I do seem to remember they were more common probably because they were cheaper to make. They just weren't quite as good as their nickel counterparts.
We made "current" transformers for large generators and circuit breakers. The cores were wound on a machine to form a donut shape. Then, they were varnished, wrapped with insulating paper and one copper winding consisting of many turns with current taps at specific points. When testing an entire rack of these transformers, they all had to be short circuited except for the actual one undergoing the testing. As current was applied to a conductor running through the center of the transformers, the output current of the transformer under test would be a direct ratio of the current running through the "one turn" primary conductor. The voltage at the output leads of any transformer not shorted out would skyrocket, trying to approach infinity. Strange how adding something which is basically non-magnetic can enhance the magnetic qualities of steel which is usually magnetic. I say usually, because there are some formulations of stainless steel which are either non magnetic or only very slightly magnetic.
I worked with transformers for approximately 16 years from 1970 to 1986. I even had the pleasure of designing, building, and winding some transformers. One in particular was for a ham radio friend who needed a transformer with a 120 volt primary and 3 or 4 secondary windings with voltages ranging from 6 volts up to about 500 volts.
The "laminations" for the transformers are made from steel, but have "impurities" added to enhance their magnetic behavior. The names for the two steels are hipersil and hipernik. Both of these are the trade names of Westinghouse Electric Corporation, East Pittsburgh Division, where I worked. Hipersil steel has silicon added to the steel and hipernic has nickel added. Hipernik can be as much as 50% nickel. I don't know how much silicon is added to the hipersil cores, but I do seem to remember they were more common probably because they were cheaper to make. They just weren't quite as good as their nickel counterparts.
We made "current" transformers for large generators and circuit breakers. The cores were wound on a machine to form a donut shape. Then, they were varnished, wrapped with insulating paper and one copper winding consisting of many turns with current taps at specific points. When testing an entire rack of these transformers, they all had to be short circuited except for the actual one undergoing the testing. As current was applied to a conductor running through the center of the transformers, the output current of the transformer under test would be a direct ratio of the current running through the "one turn" primary conductor. The voltage at the output leads of any transformer not shorted out would skyrocket, trying to approach infinity. Strange how adding something which is basically non-magnetic can enhance the magnetic qualities of steel which is usually magnetic. I say usually, because there are some formulations of stainless steel which are either non magnetic or only very slightly magnetic.
bswartzwelder,
Yes of course motors, terroids and transformers can be made out of many different types of materials, shapes and sizes with different operating properties, and many times the core is made to handle the frequency and give to give the desired magnetic flux properties...
Transformers, torroids and motors come in a wide variety of shapes, sizes,, they will also be made for a specific purpose in doing so their construction can vary widely, and they do use different materials to make up the laminate, some transformers use a high nickel iron alloy (similar to stainless steel) some as much as 80% nickel, carbonyl iron, glassy vitreous metals. Ferrite core or donuts, some even add cobalt, as well as other salloys...
These torroid, motor iron or transformers are not what I was discussing making the copperas (ferrous sulfate )from.
The soft iron in most of the transformers is a fairly pure source of iron (it can have from 0 to 3% silicon) and is sometimes referred to silicon steel when the content is at the high end of this range; it is also called electrical steel.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Electrical_steel
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Magnetic_core
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Silicon_steel
Ferrous sulfate can be made from many different sources of iron, when we crystallize the copperas the iron sulfate crystals reject impurity's, and soft Iron transformer or motor laminates are an fairly pure source of soft Iron, which will make some very nice green copperas crystals, the tiny bit of silicon has given me no troubles (0 to3% silicon seems to be common in the iron laminate), you will most likely have a hard time finding a better or cheaper source of soft pure iron than from transformers or motors to make your copperas from.
And or course we do not want to use a transformer, motor, or torroid that do not use the soft iron laminates.
We do not want to use transformers or motors that use materials like the ferrite core, high nickel, high cobalt iron, Fe-Al alloy or glassy vitreous metal core, powdered magnetic cores or one of the other alloys...
Steel wool, as long is it is not the bronze or stainless steel or soap impregnated should work also (although I have not tried it to make copperas with).
http://go.rockler.com/tech/RTD20000185AA.pdf
Yes of course motors, terroids and transformers can be made out of many different types of materials, shapes and sizes with different operating properties, and many times the core is made to handle the frequency and give to give the desired magnetic flux properties...
Transformers, torroids and motors come in a wide variety of shapes, sizes,, they will also be made for a specific purpose in doing so their construction can vary widely, and they do use different materials to make up the laminate, some transformers use a high nickel iron alloy (similar to stainless steel) some as much as 80% nickel, carbonyl iron, glassy vitreous metals. Ferrite core or donuts, some even add cobalt, as well as other salloys...
These torroid, motor iron or transformers are not what I was discussing making the copperas (ferrous sulfate )from.
The soft iron in most of the transformers is a fairly pure source of iron (it can have from 0 to 3% silicon) and is sometimes referred to silicon steel when the content is at the high end of this range; it is also called electrical steel.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Electrical_steel
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Magnetic_core
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Silicon_steel
Ferrous sulfate can be made from many different sources of iron, when we crystallize the copperas the iron sulfate crystals reject impurity's, and soft Iron transformer or motor laminates are an fairly pure source of soft Iron, which will make some very nice green copperas crystals, the tiny bit of silicon has given me no troubles (0 to3% silicon seems to be common in the iron laminate), you will most likely have a hard time finding a better or cheaper source of soft pure iron than from transformers or motors to make your copperas from.
And or course we do not want to use a transformer, motor, or torroid that do not use the soft iron laminates.
We do not want to use transformers or motors that use materials like the ferrite core, high nickel, high cobalt iron, Fe-Al alloy or glassy vitreous metal core, powdered magnetic cores or one of the other alloys...
Steel wool, as long is it is not the bronze or stainless steel or soap impregnated should work also (although I have not tried it to make copperas with).
http://go.rockler.com/tech/RTD20000185AA.pdf
NaNo2 is preciptation sorry my mistake. and I am reading Hook book I see what was wrong nitric was still in the solution but what can I do to whit this mud ? I will boil again the solution that I have without a mud and do steps again but I think that in mud is some gold?
Thanks for your ansvers
Thanks for your ansvers
Because I have never used sodium nitrite as a precipitant, I probably will not be much help here.
I would expect the gold to precipitate as a brown powder as it normally does, free nitric acid will normally keep the gold in a oxidized state and keep it from forming a precipitant of the elemental gold brown powders, base metals (my guess is you have several involved here from the CPU's) can also complicate matters, the acids can form salts, such as NaCl as well as other base metal salts, many of which are white or fairly clear crystals, and concentrating a solution these salts will many times form as the water or solution concentrates, these salts could form before all of the excess HNO3 has been driven off by evaporation.
Looking at just NaNO2 and HCl we can see where NaCl common salt is formed as well as nitrous acid in solution:
NaNO2 + HCl --> NaCl + HNO2,
In most of the reactions where we dissolve gold salts are formed, some methods Like with HCl / NaClO (bleach method, the salts can form in a much larger volume than other processes, base metals also form salts several of which are insoluble or only slightly soluble, especially in a concentrated solution.
Many of these salts can be mixtures of common salts and other metal salts, and can normally be separated, NaCl is water soluble (even in cool water), lead chloride is insoluble in cold water but becomes quite soluble in boiling hot water, silver chloride is insoluble in cold water or boiling hot water, silver chloride can be dissolved in ammonia solution (and precipitated again as AgCl with HCl {read up on the safety of silver ammine solutions to avoid explosive mixtures} before attempting this), copper I chloride will dissolve in HCl ....
With the free nitric and base metals in solution you may have a hard to getting a good gold precipitation, cementing the values out onto copper metal is always an option.
evaporation may form copious amounts of salts before the free HNO3 is vaporized completely off, here I see several options:
Separate salts to keep solution from bumping or overheating the bottom of the beaker and possibly breaking it due to temperature difference, or scorching the salts to the bottom of the beaker, and deal with the salts formed separately from the concentrated solution, while evaporating the solution to de-nox, (not that good of an option).
Adding a bit of gold to consume HNO3, using heat to drive the reaction to completion.
Using sulfamic acid to remove free HNO3.
Cementing values on copper metal (this is the one I think I would choose, because of the base metals involved).
I have never used NaNO2 to precipitate gold and would like to learn more about it, although I do not have much reason to try it at this point.
I do not know if this will help you any or not, but I can guarantee you Hokes book and understanding what she teaches will help.
I would expect the gold to precipitate as a brown powder as it normally does, free nitric acid will normally keep the gold in a oxidized state and keep it from forming a precipitant of the elemental gold brown powders, base metals (my guess is you have several involved here from the CPU's) can also complicate matters, the acids can form salts, such as NaCl as well as other base metal salts, many of which are white or fairly clear crystals, and concentrating a solution these salts will many times form as the water or solution concentrates, these salts could form before all of the excess HNO3 has been driven off by evaporation.
Looking at just NaNO2 and HCl we can see where NaCl common salt is formed as well as nitrous acid in solution:
NaNO2 + HCl --> NaCl + HNO2,
In most of the reactions where we dissolve gold salts are formed, some methods Like with HCl / NaClO (bleach method, the salts can form in a much larger volume than other processes, base metals also form salts several of which are insoluble or only slightly soluble, especially in a concentrated solution.
Many of these salts can be mixtures of common salts and other metal salts, and can normally be separated, NaCl is water soluble (even in cool water), lead chloride is insoluble in cold water but becomes quite soluble in boiling hot water, silver chloride is insoluble in cold water or boiling hot water, silver chloride can be dissolved in ammonia solution (and precipitated again as AgCl with HCl {read up on the safety of silver ammine solutions to avoid explosive mixtures} before attempting this), copper I chloride will dissolve in HCl ....
With the free nitric and base metals in solution you may have a hard to getting a good gold precipitation, cementing the values out onto copper metal is always an option.
evaporation may form copious amounts of salts before the free HNO3 is vaporized completely off, here I see several options:
Separate salts to keep solution from bumping or overheating the bottom of the beaker and possibly breaking it due to temperature difference, or scorching the salts to the bottom of the beaker, and deal with the salts formed separately from the concentrated solution, while evaporating the solution to de-nox, (not that good of an option).
Adding a bit of gold to consume HNO3, using heat to drive the reaction to completion.
Using sulfamic acid to remove free HNO3.
Cementing values on copper metal (this is the one I think I would choose, because of the base metals involved).
I have never used NaNO2 to precipitate gold and would like to learn more about it, although I do not have much reason to try it at this point.
I do not know if this will help you any or not, but I can guarantee you Hokes book and understanding what she teaches will help.
What type of cpu's did you process? Did they have gold caps and did you process the caps along with the rest of the cpu? I remember seeing a post that said when tungsten precipitates it has a yellow orange color. Some of the cpus with gold caps are made of tungsten under the gold plating so maybe that is what this precipitate is? Just a thought
Tyler
Tyler
The color of the filter looks like it could have an iron salt from the rusty looking color, but the trouble is we cannot use colors as a way to tell what we have, colors are sometimes clues, but can also be deceiving, testing is the only way to tell for sure what you have.
I cannot tell how concentrated the solution is in the large beaker, the dark green solution, it looks to be loaded with base metals.
Then by the filter there looks to be a nice yellow solution, this is closer to the color I would expect for a gold chloride solution (although Iron can give a yellow color also), this is where testing with stannous chloride will help determine if that yellow is gold, ammonium thiocyanate will give a blood red color if iron is in solution, for both of these test it is important to remove free nitric acid before testing, as the free nitric can mess up both of these tests.
I cannot tell how concentrated the solution is in the large beaker, the dark green solution, it looks to be loaded with base metals.
Then by the filter there looks to be a nice yellow solution, this is closer to the color I would expect for a gold chloride solution (although Iron can give a yellow color also), this is where testing with stannous chloride will help determine if that yellow is gold, ammonium thiocyanate will give a blood red color if iron is in solution, for both of these test it is important to remove free nitric acid before testing, as the free nitric can mess up both of these tests.
There was 3 intel pro, 4 amd k5, some 486, 286, and some intel pentium... I break it and put all in AR, in first was yellow and after dark yellow brown green, mistake was puting in AR right away I should put first in nitric to remove base metals. I did before with some less Cpus and percitipate some gold but I belive not all from solution and worked with more patience...
butcher said:
So there is possibility that in AR was more HCl and in reaction with NaNO2 make again HNO3 and that is problem, is there a same problem with sodium metabisulfit because I will get some very soon and try precipitate gold with it. And I made some pictures of salts separated from the rest of the solution. If you know what to do now It will be much of help to me. if put some HCl over the salts it will dissolve and live on the bottom some gold, if will dissolve the gold too?
