Trouble reading posts - Chemistry is all mixed up -

[snoman701]

I've got a peanut butter jar and some hose....lol

Peanut butter comes in plastic jars these days, be very careful when heating them as the temper isn't that good. :lol:

Wife does the shopping....organic pb is in glass, and kept in the fridge...and so much better!!!

 

[g_axelsson]

Kurt, I thought I made it clear that I do know the limitations of trying to calculate and describe the reactions we run into in real life situations. I think we are on the same page there.

I see it a bit like directions between two cities. A guy with a description will find his way every time as long nothing unexpected happens.
"Go straight forward to the big meadow, take next left..." and so on. This is the refining for a monkey approach. With experience he will eventually learn most back roads and with that added experience less things make him loose his way.

A guy with a map that can see the layout of every back road can still follow a way but has it easier to find his way out of a tight spot and can also spot shortcuts without having to do random testing.

A refiner with the added knowledge of chemistry will have less problems following the directions as he sees the underlying process, he will also have easier to find out what happened when things goes south.

When I run a batch with copper chloride leach I always think of the Cu⁺ and Cu²⁺ ions, it might not work faster or better, but it gives a better understanding to what is happening.

Here you go snowman701 --- you want numbers - I will give you "some" (but right out the gate I am going to tell you these numbers are only "in theory" - due to the above)

pure silver --- to dissolve 1 gram it takes 1.17 ml 70% nitric & 1.17 ml distilled H20

pure gold --- to dissolve 1 gram it takes 1 ml 70% nitric & 4 mil 30% HCl

BUT - here is a good example of how that just does not hold up :arrow: http://goldrefiningforum.com/phpBB3/viewtopic.php?f=34&t=22286&p=233294&hilit=electrolyte#p233294

This is actually hilarious, first you give him numbers and then you prove that the numbers for dissolving silver is wrong.
The one for gold is also wrong, I've dissolved 50 grams of gold with circa 30 ml of nitric acid.
And measuring the volume of water with three digits precision is also fun... especially as it isn't used up, but the process works better when diluted.

All this could be shown with some math and formulas. But in reality the numbers are in best case ballpark numbers because of differences in scrap composition. Temperature, concentration and reflux or evaporation will also affect the numbers.

If we write down the formulas for dissolving gold, copper, silver and zinc we could see how much acid we need at least for each metal, then we would easily see that karat gold with a lot of copper would take more acid to dissolve than pure gold.
This is something that we don't need to do every time, just once. After that it can become a rule of thumbs, red gold takes more nitric than gold foils. If it is of use I don't know, but it gives a deeper understanding.

For silver and gold the reactions are so simple so it might just be an academic question, but going into PGM:s then I think a solid understanding of the chemistry behind is a good thing to have.

FreeChemist is a perfect example, too bad he isn't with us any longer. His explanation of how to prepare DMG and why it works is just obvious because he wrote down the formula. Today I don't expect many refiners to know why they should mix the DMG with sodium hydroxide, it just works that way.

Sorry, this has been a rant and I just wish there were more formulas and calculations in the posts on the forum. :wink:

Göran

 

[g_axelsson]

My beakers the same size as yours!

:lol: :lol: :lol: --- ya but - is it half full - or - half empty :mrgreen:

Kurt

Beware of the half empty glass if it is the wrong half...
https://what-if.xkcd.com/6/
The lesson: If the optimist says the glass is half full, and the pessimist says the glass is half empty, the physicist ducks.

:mrgreen:

Göran, the physicist

 

[Palladium]

Half full - half empty. Both are pessimistic to me.

I like my beaker Full! :mrgreen:

 

[FrugalRefiner]

Ahhh... Physicist humor. "But it only works with spherical chickens in a vacuum."

And I thought I was half a bubble off level... Wait, which half? :lol:

Dave

 

[Shark]

Ahhh... Physicist humor. "But it only works with spherical chickens in a vacuum."

And I thought I was half a bubble off level... Wait, which half? :lol:

Dave

Hopefully not the half that floats to the ceiling.

 

[Barren Realms 007]

I think you are all a few marbles shy of a full load. :roll: :mrgreen:

 

[anachronism]

I think you are all a few marbles shy of a full load. :roll: :mrgreen:

No, just a sandwich short of a picnic?

 

[jason_recliner]

I guess I must be a pessimist, for I view a glass half full of water as a glass that could be [at least] half full of either wine, beer, cider or scotch.

To anyone who may read this thread in the future, do NOT try making nitric in a plastic peanut butter jar.

The irony to this big No-No is that peanuts actually contain beneficial dietary nitric oxide, NO! :lol:

 

[kurtak]

You guys crack me up - lots of good laughs to go with my cup of coffee this morning (which is now half empty - ya - no wait - half full - ya - no wait - now I an confused) :lol: :lol: :lol:

anyway just a few comments ------------

My beakers the same size as yours!

:lol: :lol: :lol: --- ya but - is it half full - or - half empty :mrgreen:

Kurt

Yes but whose is fullerer? Haha is there such a word?

Then palladium wrote ---------

Half full - half empty. Both are pessimistic to me.

I like my beaker Full!

Just be careful because if your beakerer is to fullerer you might have a foamerer overer when the reaction gets goinging :lol: :twisted:

Beware of the half empty glass if it is the wrong half...
https://what-if.xkcd.com/6/
The lesson: If the optimist says the glass is half full, and the pessimist says the glass is half empty, the physicist ducks.



Göran, the physicist

:shock: So your saying when drinking from a glass that is half full/half empty --- I should wear my PPE (Personal Protective Equipment) :wink: :lol:

And I thought I was half a bubble off level... Wait, which half?

Dave

That's a good thing - IF - your a plumber - & - the half bubble off is in the direction of the drain :mrgreen:

I think you are all a few marbles shy of a full load.

Speaking for myself - that's always been true - just ask any of my friends :!: :lol:

No, just a sandwich short of a picnic?

That's ok - I will go without a sandwich & take more chips (BGAs are my favorite) :mrgreen:

Kurt

 

[kurtak]

Kurt, I thought I made it clear that I do know the limitations of trying to calculate and describe the reactions we run into in real life situations. I think we are on the same page there.

Per the under lined - Yes my friend - I am sure we are on the same page in that regard --- we are each just approaching the deeper content of this thread from different angles --- which is a good thing mate :!: 8)

Sorry, this has been a rant

So no need to be sorry - I am not seeing a rant - but rather an "good" opening for further discussion 8)

But today I have an appointment at 8:00 AM & will be gone "all" day --- So tomorrow

Kurt

 

[kurtak]

snoman701, please don't think that I or these guys are attacking you or your beliefs.

Correct Geo --- snowman701 - I am not attacking you --- I have to leave for an appointment in a few minutes & will be gone all day - so will explain more tomorrow

And by the way - welcome to THE worlds "leading" discussion forum about refining precious metals

Kurt