UPDATE : Can someone please help with copper pgm seperation

[anachronism]

How is buying a half ounce of fine platinum and dissolving that going to teach me a single thing about catalytic converters? I get it that some people have all the money they need to have their sealed system and you should be happy with that but that my question. I don’t understand how I can read through so many of these threads and see so much negative comments persuading people to not refine when this website is here to learn about and get help with refining and nothing is done about it. You people,the ones that have the money to buy all the fancy stuff that the little guy would love to have,and only the ones that try to bully people out of doing refining are the ones I’m talking it because not all are bad, must have been born with a silver spoon in your ass and not understand where hard earned come from. Not all people as lucky to have the funds to buy all the latest equipment. Im on a site that I cant abbreviate bc and have to use the actual because word but you jerks “I want to call you something else but I for one have respect for other people” can come on here and gripe a person out on a website that’s just for what the hell they are asking about. If you don’t have a helpful answer and just got on here to tell me to stop bc I don’t have a million dollars for the right equipment “if I had a million a could throw away I would be on a ranch right hunting by the way” then I ask you to not reply to my thread. So if no one else ever replies of what I just said so be it because this is the last refining I probably will ever do. But thank you for not giving one useful piece of information.

You see, people like you are the problem with this world. I started with nothing. Zip. Nada.

For a period in my life I was living in a car because I didn't have a roof over my head. That's classed as homeless in anyones' perception. Everything I have ever done is down to my own efforts from a base line of nothing.

For someone like you to assume that people have a silver spoon in their mouth is a really bad thing to do. People work hard, and make sacrifices to get where they want to be. For some that place might be to have a happy family and raise their kids right, for others it's to be a millionaire but either way its not for you to take an entitled attitude and judge them.

We have the money to do the stuff you want to do because we firstly worked for it, and secondly we planned for it, and thirdly sacrificed other things to have it. We weren't entitled to diddly squat and neither are you.

 

[anachronism]

Mind you, many professionals here will deter you deliberately, because market is already not easy and they fear new competition coming.
They hate 3rd world, cowboy like practices, which are destroying their legitimate business and at the same time are damaging to environment and workers/bystanders health.

Bloody hell what is this forum coming to?

You've got full on professionals offering tens of thousands of dollars worth of advice out of the goodness of their hearts for nothing.

You have that kind of attitude - well go somewhere else and see the standard of advice being offered. It won't begin to compare.

 

[ChemGeek]

Mind you, many professionals here will deter you deliberately, because market is already not easy and they fear new competition coming.
They hate 3rd world, cowboy like practices, which are destroying their legitimate business and at the same time are damaging to environment and workers/bystanders health.

Bloody hell what is this forum coming to?

You've got full on professionals offering tens of thousands of dollars worth of advice out of the goodness of their hearts for nothing.

You have that kind of attitude - well go somewhere else and see the standard of advice being offered. It won't begin to compare.

Go and read many posts criticising peoples, when they try to do something in a crap way, which would nevertheless work fine as long as they know what they are doing and at the same time are daring enough.
Wet ashing on fire stick and similar ideas.
And of course for a skilled person with a bit of a cowboy mind a result will be as good as for you with $$$$$$$ company investment.
You would fail while competing with them very much like Big Pharma with multimiliion dollars worth certified ISO/GMP etc facilities stand no chance whatsoever while competing with Mexican, Indian or Thai generic companies who care little about issuses like worker welfare, safety, environment, Intellectual property or GMP bureaucracy.
Their product if not adulterated later is still 98-99% pure and usually as good as 99.9% Western Corpo equivalent.
It can also be 10-1000 times cheaper.
Do you know, that many Americans are illegaly importing legitimate, *prescribed* drugs from Mexico's generic manufacturers?
They simply cannot afford Western "proper" procedures and corporate charges but still want to live...

 

[snoman701]

You aren't competing with them though. Without buying power, they have little in the world of refining.

The methods used by irresponsible people aren't scalable. If they were they'd be used by larger companies.


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[butcher]

I am wondering where this is going?
How is this helping in our shared interest of refining?
Can we wind this thing down, and get back to helping each other?

 

[snoman701]

And I'm not really keen on the word irresponsible, a word I'd prefer is desperate.

Yes, you can recover pt/Pd/rh in a garbage can....but you can't do it safely in a manor that is competitive on the large scale.


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[anachronism]

This forum has helped countless people with whichever level of refining skill they choose to get to. For no financial gain.

With that kind of entitled and hostile attitude (because that is literally biting the hand that feeds,) why are you here?

I am wondering where this is going?
How is this helping in our shared interest of refining?
Can we wind this thing down, and get back to helping each other?

I'm sticking up for the integrity of the forum. These people have no place doing this.

 

[ChemGeek]

You aren't competing with them though. Without buying power, they have little in the world of refining.

The methods used by irresponsible people aren't scalable. If they were they'd be used by larger companies.

Go and see what this guy is doing on some of his videos:
https://goldenscrap.com/goldrecoveryvideos/
Any HSE/COSHH/OSHA/EPA official would get a hart attack seing it.
Yet he is successful, his approach scalable etc.
This needs to be recognized.

 

[butcher]

I would like to hear the thoughts comments on the subject, from the guy who made those videos,

 

[snoman701]

You aren't competing with them though. Without buying power, they have little in the world of refining.

The methods used by irresponsible people aren't scalable. If they were they'd be used by larger companies.

Go and see what this guy is doing on some of his videos:
https://goldenscrap.com/goldrecoveryvideos/
Any HSE/COSHH/OSHA/EPA official would get a hart attack seing it.
Yet he is successful, his approach scalable etc.
This needs to be recognized.

I'm not going to go watch 50 videos. But here's what I've NEVER seen in any one of these videos.

Assay...assay...assay. AND a comparison as to what you are actually making. The only thing that can be considered "profit for refining" is that which gets you beyond what you can sell it for in a competitive market...after reasonable labor fees, acid costs, etc.

But generally, I would question anyone who thinks it's a scalable business opportunity to buy any e-scrap which is rich enough, on a consistent enough basis, and can be processed strictly using hydrometallurgy, even with some incineration.

When you really compare what I can get for my material selling it directly to a board buyer, or even having it processed by someone like reldon, sipi, etc...it's not that you can't compete using AP, nitric, whatever...it's that you can't process enough product to pay yourself a reasonable rate, and on top of that, you have to source the product.

You really think the guys shipping 40,000 lb loads to the real refinery are worried about guys dropping a few boards in acid?

 

[snoman701]

I mean, lets ask Jon...hey Jon...I've seen you process fingers and gold capped chips. Is there anything else that you save $$ if you process it yourself?

How many pounds of material do you sell per year? And how much income can you derive from material that is more profitable to process yourself? Would you still be able to source that material if you weren't selling thousands of pounds of other boards per year?

 

[Geo]

I am seeing that this discussion is as far apart as apples and potatoes. If you want to refine on a small scale, it is a hobby. If you want to refine on a large scale, it is a career. Just like any enterprise, capital is essential. Either you have to have some money or someone has to be willing to back you that has money. If you are trying to gain knowledge, try and do all you can on the cheap, but safely. No one is going to invest the whole farm on a get rich quick scheme in refining, or if they do, they should be allowed to lose everything to keep them out of danger. No one here is trying to be a financial adviser and micromanage someone else's misguided attempts to break into the lucrative business of small scale refining. Offer advice and move on. Follow it or don't. Your mother will miss you but no one here will bat an eye.

 

[ChemGeek]

But here's what I've NEVER seen in any one of these videos.

Assay...assay...assay. AND a comparison as to what you are actually making.

Gold reprocessed from platinides free sources by AR/SMB method will show 95%+ purity. More likely 99+% purity if done by competent person.
And if there are platinides as contaminants (Pd most likely would sneak in) it is still about as valuable as a pure one.
So don't overstate importance of an assay.
Your customer will take care of it anyway, before he is going to pay.

You really think the guys shipping 40,000 lb loads to the real refinery are worried about guys dropping a few boards in acid?

... and yet 100 amateurs securing 400 lb of raw material each would deprive him of his feedstock.
Bulk lots are still being exported for refining in China so there is not so much left...
Like any valuable business dealing with chemistry, engineering and other high tech activities, refining is *also* being outsourced to Third World and China as we speak.
So don't you ignore this Pakistani guy from a videos here https://goldenscrap.com/goldrecoveryvideos/ who is processing tons in open air with low tech approach.
These kind of operations are often proving to be Nemesis of superficially sound Western businesses.

 

[Geo]

If you watched his video on smelting MLCC's for Pd and silver, you can tell by the final weight that they are losing some somewhere. Either he is showing different batches in sequence or they poured some of it on the ground. Wet ashing in what looked to be a large aluminum pot. Workers walking around this huge pot of bubbling sulfuric acid in sandals and something that looks like diapers. No fume control. No respirator. The video should be removed. It's horrible. I wouldn't recommend anyone watch it unless it's a "what not to do" presentation.

 

[nickvc]

I have stayed out of this discussion so far as in my view anyone trying to wet refine cats commercially will have a very short business life not to mention the health hazards they are exposing themselves to.
If you can source cats for free or very cheap which these days is not easy then home refining is a profitable exercise or can be but be aware of the health risks and the fact that you will never recovery all the values and you will be left with a toxic pile of debris to dispose of which is why most of the big buyers simply buy and sell on to the big processors, they know the value of each cat they buy and simply make their profit from selling on, but that takes very very deep pockets as I believe settlement times are at least 90 days which in a rising market is fine but if the price falls so does the margin.
Home refiners and small scale refining businesses pose very little threat to the major players as new laws and even more paperwork trails are now been enforced virtually everywhere in the developed world, this does not apply to every country as yet but give it time, environmental controls will be common place within a fairly short period of time, even China has now banned some scrap from been imported into the country as they decided a healthy population was better than a few people getting rich.

The one point I will stress here is that all the active members who post regularly are as one on the point of safety, we have lost a few members some from long term exposure to various elements and others who failed to heed the warnings, the reason we stress to read before trying experiments isn’t because we are lazy but because by reading and understanding the processes you gain a knowledge of the dangers involved.
While I applaud anyone who wants to try to better themselves or their families living conditions or simply to earn a few extra bucks I worry many do not see or perhaps do not want to see the risks when messing with chemicals, metals and or fumes, these are not to be ignored you can not only harm yourself and your family but your neighbors and the environment.
I have said before and will say again we are under scrutiny here from many official bodies on the forum because of the very nature of what we do and what we use, we have to be seen to do and say the right things about proper safety and environmental concerns, many struggle now to source chemicals so imagine what would happen should one of our members should really screw up.

 

[ChemGeek]

If you watched his video on smelting MLCC's for Pd and silver, you can tell by the final weight that they are losing some somewhere. Either he is showing different batches in sequence or they poured some of it on the ground. Wet ashing in what looked to be a large aluminum pot. Workers walking around this huge pot of bubbling sulfuric acid in sandals and something that looks like diapers. No fume control. No respirator. The video should be removed. It's horrible. I wouldn't recommend anyone watch it unless it's a "what not to do" presentation.

I disagree.
This wideo is very informative.
It shows how Third World is actually eradicating Western businesses in globalized economy.
Then don't be mistaken - once they gain some initial capital, they will improve their practice up to our 1960-ties standards... and still undermine our industry to oblivion.
I am not suggesting that this is a correct way of refining but West must understand why it is becoming uncompetitive in so many areas of business.

Regarding MLCC - new (post 1992) lots are Pd poor and in many lots Pd is absent. We don't know what the feedstock they got.

 

[anachronism]

If you watched his video on smelting MLCC's for Pd and silver, you can tell by the final weight that they are losing some somewhere. Either he is showing different batches in sequence or they poured some of it on the ground. Wet ashing in what looked to be a large aluminum pot. Workers walking around this huge pot of bubbling sulfuric acid in sandals and something that looks like diapers. No fume control. No respirator. The video should be removed. It's horrible. I wouldn't recommend anyone watch it unless it's a "what not to do" presentation.

I disagree.
This wideo is very informative.
It shows how Third World is actually eradicating Western businesses in globalized economy.
Then don't be mistaken - once they gain some initial capital, they will improve their practice up to our 1960-ties standards... and still undermine our industry to oblivion.
I am not suggesting that this is a correct way of refining but West must understand why it is becoming uncompetitive in so many areas of business.

Regarding MLCC - new (post 1992) lots are Pd poor and in many lots Pd is absent. We don't know what the feedstock they got.

Now although I disagree with your point of view, you have a right to make that point of view known, however that also comes with the right of others to tell you that they disagree and react accordingly.

You've degenerated into talking baseless poop. If you had any understanding whatsoever of global business you would have thought twice and not posted this. As Geo said the standards in the videos are terribad. The AR leaching one I saw wasn't even thought through properly, never mind the safety concerns. You cannot seriously laud this as inspirational? How is it a good example to anyone?

 

[ChemGeek]

I have red several recent replies in this thread.
Yes, guys you are right, however for various reasons you seem incapable to discuss legitimate subjects regarding refining in any meaningful fashion, maybe out of fear that officials might visit your scrapyards or whatever.
These subjects will not go away anyway, at any time there will be plenty of activities in the Third World countries or in China taking greater share of the market than you think. Yet out of desire to conform to prevaling narration you won't even dare to discuss issues which actually *are* affecting your prospects on the West.

Regarding availability of chemicals - many incidents involving throwing sulfuric acid and caustic soda on men and women in the UK, in London, will soon enough make virtually any discreet chemicals other than water, salt and sugar unavailable to public, regardless what bushman refiners do or not do.
So anyone in this business will need to set up company.

Anyway good luck for you, many threads here are quite interesting but open/honest discussion is sufficiently crippled, not to be worth to pursue anymore.

 

[butcher]

ChemGeek

I have red several recent replies in this thread.
Yes, guys you are right, however for various reasons you seem incapable to discuss legitimate subjects regarding refining in any meaningful fashion, maybe out of fear that officials might visit your scrapyards or whatever.

Wrong. we discuss legitimate subjects, in a meaningful fashion (although this topic is not one of those discussions), I surely doubt we have any fear of some official visiting our scrap yards or whatever.


These subjects will not go away anyway, at any time there will be plenty of activities in the Third World countries or in China taking greater share of the market than you think. Yet out of desire to conform to prevaling narration you won't even dare to discuss issues which actually *are* affecting your prospects on the West.

True these problems will continue,
Wrong in my opinion I cannot see where a third world country which is willing to kill themselves or their people to feed themselves while the (mostly corrupt) people in power have control over them, watch the nations innocent children die over a few grains of gold from a pile of burnt circuit boards (burning trash of a more developed nations).
I cannot see how this would affect our prospects, How would this kind of activity affect a more developed country with people which educate themselves, and attempt to educate those poor souls which will kill their neighbor or themselves for a gram of gold or a piece of bread to eat?


Regarding availability of chemicals - many incidents involving throwing sulfuric acid and caustic soda on men and women in the UK, in London, will soon enough make virtually any discreet chemicals other than water, salt and sugar unavailable to the public, regardless what bushman refiners do or not do.
So anyone in this business will need to set up company.

Wrong again, in my opinion, We live in a world where chemicals are all around us, heck there are chemicals in our salt and rocks, any caveman could refine gold with as long as he was educated.


Anyway good luck for you, many threads here are quite interesting but open/honest discussion is sufficiently crippled, not to be worth to pursue anymore.

Wrong again, in my opinion, this thread has not been interesting for me at all, I have found no good, and see no good coming from this discussion. I feel it has detoured the forums object of learning recovery and refining and doing so safely and profitably...
Wrong again, I can see where members here have been open and very honest in the discussion, although not everyone agrees or would like to hear it.

I sure hope you are right on this one, My hope is this discussion soon becomes sufficiently crippled.

 

[g_axelsson]

So don't you ignore this Pakistani guy from a videos here https://goldenscrap.com/goldrecoveryvideos/ who is processing tons in open air with low tech approach.
These kind of operations are often proving to be Nemesis of superficially sound Western businesses.

The price of success...
[youtube]https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=axYKPbr9_MA[/youtube]

In my opinion it's only a matter of time before Umar Iqbal's refinery needs to shape up or close down. Just because the government doesn't act today doesn't mean you can continue to pollute your surroundings forever. As long as people earn a dollar/euro a day on scrapping electronics there are more acute problems to deal with, but the clock is ticking as the pollution is flowing downstream and accumulates in the environment. The knowledge of what to do and how to handle electronic waste safely already exists, it's just a matter of implementing and enforcing a regulation. The only reason it isn't done yet in Pakistan is that poverty and lawlessness is such a huge problem to overcome.

Sure, I could lower my refining cost and getting more successful in refining if I just pour my waste metal solution down the drain, but I wouldn't call that successful as the price to deal with the waste down the line is going to cost a lot more than it would have costed me to take care of it when I had a concentrated solution with metal salts.
I spend just as much time on treating waste as on refining. I want to be able to drink the water from my own property, grow my own vegetables and refine without worry and that is how I'm planning my lab.

Chemgeek, I honestly doesn't understand what you mean when you say

Anyway good luck for you, many threads here are quite interesting but open/honest discussion is sufficiently crippled, not to be worth to pursue anymore.

In what way is it crippled? I'm one of the moderators here and we would never moderate a discussion as long as it is civil and not putting people in danger by bad advice.

Göran