Urea is not KNO3, right?

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livinthedream

Member
Joined
Mar 30, 2010
Messages
23
I keep seeing people saying Urea is KNO3 (or saltpetre). This is not the case. Are people saying this becuse functionally they're the same? I'm wanting to drop my Au from solution. It's in pure AR. Just don't want to mess it up. I have several pounds of KNO3 from my pyrotechnic days, ans SMB from homebrewing. Man, I was meant for this hobby, ehh? I really trust Harold's published book, but he states using Urea, not KNO3. So again, I just want to be sure. It's looking like several thousand dollars of Au I've accumulated. This is fun. I'll see about some pics after done.

Thanks alot!
 
Right. They are certainly not the same, functionally or chemically. The KNO3 will never be used at this point.

The urea is typically used by many amateurs to eliminate the effects of any excess nitric acid in the AR solution, so that the SMB can then precipitate the gold without interference.

I doubt if Harold suggested using urea. Neither of us like using it. His method of eliminating excess nitric is to evaporate the AR solution. Mine is to not use any excess nitric to start with.

The best next step could be dependent on how contaminated (with base metals) your AR solution is. Questions I might ask are: How much weight of gold is in the AR solution? About how much weight of base metals is dissolved in the AR? How much AR solution do you have? What was the source of the gold? Karat gold? Electronics? Or, what? In other words, just give us more details of what you have and how you got to this point.
 
Urea is used not only by "amateurs" but many professional gold recovery specialists use it to eliminate excess nitric. Sometimes its not feasible to boil down gallons of solution and can speed up your recovery time when you have to work against the clock.
 
livinthedream said:
I really trust Harold's published book, but he states using Urea, not KNO3.
Red flag time.

I have no published book, nor do I endorse the use of urea. I do recommend reading Hoke, however, which, to my knowledge, does not recommend the use of urea.

I refined for more than 20 years and never used it, nor did I care to. You are far better served to use Chris' method of dissolving the values, using only enough nitric to accomplish the task. That is generally beyond the ability of a newbie---they simply don't have the patience it takes, nor do they recognize the signs of total consumption, should it occur. By combining Chris' method of using just enough, with my method of adding a button of pure, to consume those traces that get left behind, you can eliminate the use of urea without evaporating totally. I heartily recommend you do that.

Welcome to the forum.

A tip. Be mindful of where you gather your information. There are people on this forum that are adept at passing along less then useful thoughts, although it's done with the best of intentions. We try to keep close watch over them, posting corrections as we deem appropriate.

Harold
 
I forget about Harold's method of adding a button of pure gold to use up the excess nitric. I like the method and, were I to refine again, I would definitely use it. I should add, however, that it would work only if there were an excess of HCl present. If there were too little HCl and an excess of HNO3, the AR would stop dissolving gold when the HCl ran out and there would still be an excess of HNO3. The same thing with my method of not using an excess of nitric to start with. There must be an excess of HCl to make it work. Since an excess of HCl causes no problems, it always pays to add a little extra when using either method.

Like Harold, I feel that, if things are done properly to start with, there will never be a need for urea. I refined many 10s of 1000s of oz of gold and never used urea once. I have experimented with it, however, and have found that it can effect the purity of the gold, especially if the metallic contaminants in the AR are above a certain level.

I suppose it could be of value as a quick-and-dirty first drop when there are tons of base metals in the AR or when one messes up and uses way too much nitric. A second AR, without urea, should be used in these cases.

I guess the term "amateur" depends on one's reference point.
 
Thanks guys,

Harold, I appologize. I read alot, and must have confused you with someone else. There was a link to a reactions manual I came across. Thought it was written by Harold, but quite possibly not.
Here's more info. The good news is I have not dissolved the values in the AR yet. acids are still separate. I unfortunately only have about 100ml of each, and the volume of scrap I have is like 400ml worth. (could I dilute with distilled to increase the volume so I don't have to use excess nitric/HCl? will this just slow down the reaction, or DELETED it up?) It's basically electronic scrap. probably very little base metals since these were Si wafers that were thrown out after deposiion of the Au layer. On most of them, it was the 1st layer of processing, so the only other metal I'll be coming into contact with is Cr (the adhesion layer for the Au) commonly 10nm of Cr is enough for adhesion. I do have a couple oz of 4 9's pure I can use to eat up the rest of the nitric if this is recommended. I'd rather use as little of this as possible since it's already good to go. worried about breaking a beaker, etc. Anyway, I have no good way to determine an accurate amount of Au present, so could I still use this method?
Thanks again, very grateful for your eagerness to help. what a great forum.
Cheers!
 
Sorry, didn't mean to offend. thought about it for a sec when typing and thought it would be OK. Wasn't necessary though. I guess when in doubt...
Anyway, if anyone would like any further clarification on my process, let me know. As far as the process, I can come up with a weight of values plus or minus 30g, so I guess I should be able to use my pure Au to use up the nitric. I'll just be REALLY! careful. Hoping to get a pop-up for the family with the extra $!! I'll see if I can find a clear process for Harold's suggestion. If anyone can let me know about diluting with distilled to bring the volume up enough to cover all my scrap, that'd be great. Thanks again!
 
livinthedream said:
I have no good way to determine an accurate amount of Au present, so could I still use this method?
I hope I am addressing your concern.
Using the right amount of acid requires that you have patience, and that you understand that too much HCl does no harm, and too much nitric does. I reflect on the patience because it's common knowledge that those unfamiliar with the way acid works on metals may not be something with which they are familiar. When they don't see violent action, it is often assumed that the reaction has ended, when that may not be the case. As the acid diminishes and the volume of remaining material does as well, the reaction becomes somewhat subdued. Adding more acid accelerates the reaction, so it is commonly wrongly assumed that the acid was exhausted. So then, in order for you to use the right amount, you must be patient and wait until you see NO further action, after having added some fresh HCl.

How well this system works (using the proper amount of acid) is reliant on your ability to know that all of the values have been digested. That isn't always possible. I offer you, as an example, dissolving filings from the jeweler's bench. Because the filings are typically accompanied by bits of abrasive, it isn't always clear when everything has been put in solution. Therefore, it was always my intention to use just a little too much nitric. That way I could insure that I was NOT leaving behind any undissolved values. I then added a weighed button of pure gold to the solution, which consumed the traces of unused nitric. It was important for me to process in this manner, for I did NO assaying of customer materials. They were always processed as individual batches, flagged with the name of the owner attached to the vessel in which it was processed. By weighing the button of added gold, I could then determine how much gold was added to the lot, so the owner received a proper accounting of that which was recovered.

I heartily endorse Chris' method----but it can get you in trouble if you lack experience. Play it safe and use a little excess nitric, then consume it in evaporation. The alternative is to intentionally use too little nitric, allowing the solution, which has an excess of HCl, to digest until all action ceases. You can then safely assume that the nitric acid you have added has been totally consumed, evidenced by the presence of yet undissolved values. Decant the pregnant solution, then start with a fresh batch of acid. That way, if you do happen to use too much nitric, the volume of solution that requires evaporation will be small, so evaporation will proceed quickly. You would, of course, still add a button of pure to the lot, which would consume the unused nitric acid.

Don't be concerned about breakage. As long as you use vessels that are intended to be used in the lab, or are intended to be heated, breaking is not an issue. Use a thin asbestos pad between the heat source and the vessel. Be certain you work such that should you break a vessel, the solution can't readily escape. NEVER work in a sink, not unless the fluid runs to a catch barrel instead of a drain. Keep a supply of paper towels near. You can soak up a spill and achieve a respectable recovery that way. All that is required to recover the values is to incinerate the paper and to then reprocesses the ash.

No apology is necessary. I am not the least bit concerned about your comments----I just want to insure that you have a clear understanding. Being misinformed is not in anyone's best interest.

Harold
 
Please note that I wrote this before seeing Harold's post.

Diluting it this much may or may not work well. I would guess that it might, but don't know for sure. You have plenty of nitric. You could buy a jug of muriatic acid (HCl) from the hardware store for less than $10?

You might divide the material into about 4 batches (or, more) and use the same aqua regia, over and over. After dissolving a batch, pour off the acid as much as possible. Rinse the chips well with as little water as possible and save the rinse water separately. Use the same strong acid on each batch. After you finish, the rinses can be added to the acid solution, the solution evaporated (as per Harold's method), and the gold dropped out (using the proper procedure).

Does the total amount of silicon wafers you have only occupy 400 ml of volume? Doesn't sound like much to me. Do you know the gold thickness? I used to run these reject wafers, from the Silicon Valley, by the drum load. The yields were good but I don't remember them being that good. Unless you know something I don't, I wouldn't expect much gold.

The wafers, when whole, tend to stick together and prevent the acid from getting in between them. You might break them up a bit and stir them carefully while dissolving the gold. Heat will help also.

The chrome is super thin and I don't think there's enough to cause any problem at all. After dissolving, you should end up with a pretty pure gold solution.
 
Thanks guys. The wafers make up the bulk of the volume. The AU on the wafers is on the order of 1-3um. This is a research facility that designs probes, etc on Si. Alot of micromachining, etc. Typically in Si valley, they're depositing much thinner films (couple hundred nm typical). I also have some of the foil that lined the evaporator that deposited the metals, and was able to remove some of the Au form the wafers in sheets because it was stuck to a parylene layer, so this got rid of some of the volume of Si. Alot of the metal came off the Al foil, but it's layered with several layers Au between Pt, Pd, Al, Cr, etc. I don't have a ton of this stuff, but would it mess things up? Any idea if AR will dissolve parylene? THe problem with it is there doesn't seem to be much that will dissolve it. It's used as a biocompatable material because it's so inert, but I just don't know about AR. I'm worried some of the Au may not be able to contact the AR. I did crush the wafers that were still whole. I think I like the idea of multiple batches and decanting, etc. How long will the AR remain reactive however? I thought it degraded rapidly once mixed. It also sounds like I can add as much HCl as I want, the 1:3 and/or 1:4 ratio doesn't really matter? This could be the easiest way to make up for my volume problem.
Man, thanks again. I love the free flow of information here. not always a real common thing. I'm into prospecting also, and have tons of black sand cons I'm looking forward to seeing what I can do with. I noticed another board along these lines. godspeed.
 
About the proper ratio for AR-----the book is far from closed on that topic. A great deal depends on the two acids in question----their level of concentration. To play it safe, always use excess HCl. It is not only cheaper than nitric, but because it causes no problems when present in excess, it insures that you use all of the nitric, assuming there is enough metal present that requires dissolution. My policy, when I was actively refining, was to mix my AR at a ratio of 1:4. I then added more concentrating the solution by evaporation, at the same time I added the button of gold. That way it was obvious if the solution was free of nitric, or not. Well diluted solutions may be very slow to respond to an added button, so concentration can have value.

Mixed emotions in that regard. Chris refined longer than I did, and enjoyed considerable success with his methods, as did I with mine. I'm not about to say which one was the better of the two, because I firmly believe that there are situations where both of us had the right idea, and where both of us could have improved what we did. That's the nature of refining. Lots of ways to achieve an end, but generally there's one that's better than all others. The problem is understanding the issues well enough, and to have enough experience, to know which is the best choice for any given circumstance. I expect I never achieved that level of performance, but I was more than pleased with the results I achieved. As long as you are not losing values, and you are comfortable with a given process, go with it.

A closing note. I mentioned that excess HCl causes no problems. While that's true as far as the recovery of gold is concerned, it does present some problems when filtering. If you have an exceedingly high percentage of HCl, your filter will often fail. I always tried to achieve a delicate balance, because I filtered heavily concentrated solutions, regardless of the volume. Those that filter well diluted solutions shouldn't experience the problem.

Harold
 
I'm ready to go on this. Lastly can I get any advice on searching the forum. I don't seem to get the results I"m looking for when I do. For example, I'd like to find a link to Hoke's book, and to Harold's AR process. I guess since I'm on the subject, is uploading pics easy to do here? I can post some eye candy for any of my fellow sickos with the fever.

Thx!
 
Start with everything below.

http://www.goldrecovery.us

http://goldrefiningforum.com/phpBB3/viewtopic.php?p=6873#6873

1. Refining Precious Metal Wastes C[1].M Hoke http://tinyurl.com/mfnyhs
(REV) (Free Download)
2. Get the (FREE) Gold Refining Forum Handbook VOL 1 here >> http://tinyurl.com/nyutnp
3. Get the (FREE) Gold Refining Forum Handbook VOL 2 (Final) here >> http://tinyurl.com/y9w5y73
4. Chemistry Handbooks Here (FREE) >> http://tinyurl.com/n27pqu
ALL FREE-----ALL THE TIME
 
livinthedream said:
... Lastly can I get any advice on searching the forum. I don't seem to get the results I"m looking for when I do. .... is uploading pics easy to do here?

Use the forum search page on my site, it work's much better than the forum search function:

http://goldrecovery.us/forum_search.php

There is a post in the 'Other Tutorials' section on uploading pictures.

Welcome to the forum,

Steve
 
Thanks alot guys, this is great stuff. I've been delayed in my project. Unbelievable amounts of good info here. I'll keep you posted.
Thanks again!
 
Harold said:
I'm not about to say which one was the better of the two, because I firmly believe that there are situations where both of us had the right idea, and where both of us could have improved what we did. That's the nature of refining. Lots of ways to achieve an end, but generally there's one that's better than all others. The problem is understanding the issues well enough, and to have enough experience, to know which is the best choice for any given circumstance.
I would like to make one final comment concerning the differences in the methods that Harold and I used. I've thought a lot about this, over the last couple of years, and feel that many of these differences stemmed from our different requirements of the accountability of the end results.

Harold's way of dealing with his jeweler customers compelled him to take each separate job to completion and recover 100% of the gold in that job, as a separate entity. Only then could he properly settle with the customer. The best way (and, maybe, the only way) to do this is by inquaration.

I rarely dealt with jewelers on a recovery basis. When I did, I usually melted the lot, assayed it, and paid on assay. For this reason, and since most of the material I ran had already been paid for, I didn't care if I got 100% the first time. I knew I would always get the rest of it, eventually. In the case of karat gold, I rarely inquarted and, instead, dissolved the scrap directly in AR. There was always a little undissolved gold co-mingled with the resulting silver chloride/dirt. All this was accumulated and recovered at a later date, using one of several methods.

Harold's methods are more cut and dried than mine. If you follow his instructions, they always work, even the first time you try them. My methods are probably faster, but you often have to vary them, depending on what reactions happen to occur and the various materials that are involved. Therefore, you have to have more knowledge to use my methods. For this reason, I have always recommended (at least, for the last year, or so) that the members of this forum follow Harold's procedures to the tee.
 
Very well stated, Chris. You covered the points that are relevant. Inquartation, properly applied, results in total recovery every time. Minimum losses to gold chloride absorbed by traces of silver chloride, but otherwise fully accountable.

For a beginner to attempt to process without inquartation can lead to some serious frustration. My first experience certainly proved the point.

Inquartation, from the perspective of the uninformed, looks like an overwhelming process. That is not true. It is routine, and happens quickly. It adds one step to the refining process, but permits the recovery of silver directly, and insures that the target metal, gold, is divided such that it can be readily dissolved. It has the benefit of cleaner gold in precipitation in that virtually all of the base metals are eliminated in the primary dissolution.

I had options at my disposal through all of my years of refining---including processing without inquartation. My choice was to always inquart, which also was my way of processing silver that was received for refining. I was fortunate to keep a rather equal balance, almost always having silver on hand. YMMV.

Harold
 
The advice from GSP to follow Harold V methods is spot on for all the members of this forum,they work each and every time if followed correctly and remove many variables that can enter the refining process that dont need to be addressed unless your forced to.My methods were a combination of Harolds and GSPs mainly to due to ignorance as to the proper way to proceed, had this forum existed in the days i was refining commercially im sure i would have had better results and a lot less secondary recoveries to secure all the values.
 
Excellent. think I'm gonna have to buy GSP's book based on the contents I read since this is fun as heck, and I have a limited supply of the current material I'm processing. Looks like there may be info on where the nonpro could inquire to obtain more material. (Hopefully?) I am in the semicon industry, but most stuff seems to be going to solar cell fab these days, other than Intel, AMD, etc. All the generic IC's are fab'd overseas anymmore. (China, etc,) "Political statement entered here" .
Anyway, I must confess it appears I've not studied thoroughly enough and maybe gotten myself into the trap of the beginner. I've not done any inquartation if I'm understanding the meaning properly... mostly due to the idea that I thought AR would be a bit more selective to PGM's than it's appearing to be. As a side note, I do not care about purity in the end either. I will be taking the values I've dropped out to (someone like you guys?) to be assayed. They melt it, assay, while molten, then pay based on the weight and assay % Au.
My values are currently in AR, and I may have been overly optimistic in thinkiing the other metals are insignificant. Turns out a couple of the substrates were alloys of Al, Ti, and Ni, and many may have used Pt as an adhesion layer. The sol'n is now a bubbling murky green (good news, the parylene doesn't seem to be reacting). Hopefully this is normal AgCl I'm thinking. It's going to be difficult to separate the AgCl from all the broken up wafer pieces I fear, but The Ag should be minimal, so if you all think there's 'not enough Au mixed in with the Ag, I may just sacrifice it to the chemical God's. Based on rough before and after weights, I've got roughly 3oz. dissolved metal in my sol'n based on before and after, but haven't tried to thoroughly rinse wafer pieces yet.
OK, sorry for such a rediculously long post, but this potentially pays for my bride and I's camper expenses this year, so don't want to mess it up. It comes down to this. Can/should I use up the HNO3 with some pure Au, or with some scrap that's about 30% Au, and a mix of other metals? How long would it take one to evaporate 120ml HNO3 from the sol'n without heating it if they didn't?
Lastly, I'm all nervous I'll mess something up... Is there anything readily available I can get from a local that would act as Urea to eat up the nitric. remember, I don't care about final purity,
Thanks again!!
 

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