Wastes - The Elephant in the Room

[Anonymous]

My solution was way to acid. I had 100 ml of hcl diluted to 125 with water
and 1 gram of copper chloride the solution was a very light green.
I am going to make some copper chloride test solution today and reduce to a saturated solution, then add only 1 ml of acid, and reduce my voltage to 2 volts. I used a 6volt battery from an exit light the first time further reseach has made me think the high voltage was also bad for my process.

 

[Harold_V]

As a suggestion, instead of creating a theoretical solution, try working with one of the solutions you generate in the process of eliminating base metals --so you're working with what would be representative of the solutions you'll deal with. I would assume the level of concentration would be much higher---and you'd have the contaminants present that are possibly troubling. That's the real world you'd have to overcome.

I might suggest, also, that you get a Variac, so you can control the output voltage---which is likely going to be critical if you expect a decent recovery in a form that is useful.

While I never made the attempt to recover my copper electrolytically when I refined, I had a working relationship with a scrap yard that did business with another small refiner in my old home town. This guy had an education in chemistry and was recovering his copper by plating it on copper starter sheets. I saw them once, at the scrap yard. The deposit was somewhat nodular in nature, but was firmly affixed to the starter sheets, and was readily marketable as scrap copper. I wish I had more information, but that's the extent of what I learned. The guys at the scrap yard didn't know much about his process, and I never met the gentleman.

Harold

 

[Anonymous]

I am going to try and use SS starter plates from the information that I have gathered the copper can be, heres the key word - easily peeled off of them for reuse.

Harold I do not have much to refine and was more working towards developing information that I could provide to the forum to help guys sell that copper they are making, more of a for the public good thing.

I do have about 25lb of boards and a couple whole computers but I would like to get results with a known solution then work towards the unexpect because I think if I can not get a solution that is just HCL and CuCL then I am pretty much dead in the water.

 

[Harold_V]

I am going to try and use SS starter plates from the information that I have gathered the copper can be, heres the key word - easily peeled off of them for reuse.

Mine were made of stainless, but the copper deposited in a solid film only briefly, then it started depositing as a furry mess, as I recall.

If you have any options at your disposal, 316 stainless is the most chemical resistant----so it might be the best choice. 304 would be my second choice.

Prior to starting my machine shop, I worked in a shop that made starter sheets for Kennecott Copper Corp., a huge copper producing company in Utah, which I have mentioned before. They were trying titanium sheets, with the same idea in mind. Titanium is pretty much inert, so it's an excellent choice for such an operation, so if you can obtain some reasonably, it's a good choice. It is difficult to machine----so be aware.

I do not have much to refine and was more working towards developing information that I could provide to the forum to help guys sell that copper they are making, more of a for the public good thing.

I do have about 25lb of boards and a couple whole computers but I would like to get results with a known solution then work towards the unexpect because I think if I can not get a solution that is just HCL and CuCL then I am pretty much dead in the water.

Your cause is noble as hell! I congratulate you.

The problem, as I see it, is that the solutions that you will process in practice are likely to be very different from a solution that is made with specific concentrations and elements in mind. That is likely to have a profound effect on how things work, or don't work. Too bad GSP isn't commenting----he has an extensive background in plating, and understand very well the ramifications of miniscule changes in electrolyte and voltage/current in plating, which, for all practical purposes, is what you're trying to accomplish.

Were it not for seeing the copper that was recovered by my competitor, I'd suggest you're wasting your time, but it's obvious the problems can be worked out. Be sure to keep us all posted on how things go. You'd provide a much needed service, especially for guys that process a lot of silver.

Harold

 

[Anonymous]

Harold, I have some real world stuff brewing now copper pins with gold and palladium. I have them going in the acid (HCL) and hydrogen peroxide. When its done cooling I will proceed to try and get the copper by electrowinning. I have gotten a couple of resisters so I can lower the voltage, I am only going to work at 1volt this time instead of 6v from a lead battery so really closer to 7v.

 

[Palladium]

James check this for some good copper info :arrow: http://goldrefiningforum.com/phpBB3/viewtopic.php?p=19690#19690

 

[Harold_V]

Looking forward to your next report, James.

Harold

 

[goldsilverpro]

To make the metal deposited separate easily from the SS cathode, several things can be done.

You can passivate clean 300 series SS by soaking it for an hour or two in a 50/50 nitric solution. Rinse well afterwards. This will help prevent the metal from adhering to the SS.

Although I never liked this method, some people very lightly oil the SS. Don't use an oil that contains silicone.

The deposited metal will tend to wrap around the edges of the SS sheet, which makes its removal difficult. This can be solved by wrapping plastic plater's tape (3M) on the edges of the SS sheet.

 

[Scott2357]

What about a SS ladle? I saw a 3 1/2" diameter one for about $3 the other day. Cut the handle and bend it to hook on the edge of the process tank. To avoid metal plating on the edge, adjust the hook so at least top 3/16" of the parabola is above solution.

 

[Anonymous]

I got some copper flashing today I am going to use that for my starter sheets. Also I do have a plan B. This may be the best way to go.
Concentrate the Cu chloride solutions, then convert them with sulfuric to cu sulfates then I can boil off my HCL, since summer is coming I may even use solar power to do that and to concentrate the the chlorides.
Then electrolys the CuSO4 giving me copper and my sulfuric back, Hoo Rah I have a realistic plan.

Also making a tube to pack the copper slug to run through the electrolyte before depleating to acid.

 

[Anonymous]

Well I have two solutions ready to test the first is from AP process on copper with Gold plating and PD content mixed the second is just copper
reacted with the commonly used formula for AR that is nitrate and HCL based - I use KNO3 for the nitrate. I will be attempting the plate out with
1.5v from for ease of use rechargeable D Cell batteries.

I am also going to prepare some Cupric Oxide to add to my solutions to make sure they are used up.

Picture and results tomorrow or monday.

 

[Anonymous]

Well plated out some copper. I did better than the first time but was still very spongy. Also, I use SS for my anode and it dissolved contaminating my solution.

I have been doing some more research. I have diluted my solution and have a new lead anode. Also increased the surface area to cut down on amp density. Added 1 teaspoon of sugar to the solution as a lot of
the references state that the solutions contain organic stabilizer but do not say what it is.

 

[Palladium]

Have you tried Titanium James ?

 

[Harold_V]

Well plated out some copper. I did better than the first time but was still very spongy. Also, I use SS for my anode and it dissolved contaminating my solution.

My anode was comprised of gold alloy and copper, which worked well aside from the spongy deposit. That seems to be a common problem, and was enough to discourage me from any further attempts, considering my purpose was to gather the slimes for further processing. They were too heavily contaminated by the spongy deposit, which regularly fell free from the cathode. It's important to get a nodular deposit, if not a smooth one, when depositing the recovered copper.

Ralph's recommendation to try titanium is pretty much right on the money. It's commonly used in plating, being inert. I used to use a slab of titanium for stripping watch bands with cyanide, and found it would erode to some degree if allowed to contact the electrolyte. I don't think that will be an issue with sulfuric, but I'm not sure. Could be Lou or Irons can comment in that regard. If lead works, that, too, may be the right thing to pursue. If any transfers, I'd forget it in a hurry. Sort of defeats the purpose, especially if the copper is intended for recovering silver.

Harold

 

[Palladium]

Here is a good pdf on Ti :arrow: http://www.timet.com/coresistframe.html

 

[Anonymous]

I may try some Ti, got lead this time because research indicates it is the
material used commercially.

I will keep plugging away. This has consumed most of my free time and I have to work on my new furnace some. I really need to get it done as I have all of the molds ready to cast myself a new milling machine.

 

[Bernie Foley]

Hi all,
I used to do copper electrowinnig processing the slimes for gold and silver. To get a plating solution to work i used an electrotyping solution of sulfuric acid and copper sulfate. The anode consists of the metals to be refined.. a clean thin sheet of copper for a starter cathode.
from the 1929 metals finishing guidebook solution as follows:
copper sulfate 32 0z per gallon of water
sulfuric acid 8-10 0z per gallon of water current density 20-50 amps/sqft.
at 1-4 volts dc. well filtered power supply..(not a charger)
However for the electrowinning keep the voltage below .38 volts as only the copper will plate out. I used to grow different shaped cathodes and sell them..deposit is nodular to crystal.........Good luck....Bernie

 

[Anonymous]

It has been a while since I have worked on trying to get the copper to plate out solid. The problem is from what I can see using sulfate and sulfuric works to plate solid, but we have either copper nitrate or chloride or a mixture of these with some other metals in the mix.

My first attempts were with the voltage to high. I did get copper to drop out at the cathode but it was a powder. Harold brought up the point that this is cathode copper even though it is not solid. I think this could be washed and pressed or melted into a salable form. It would definitely be better to get the copper to plate out as a solid deposit.

The problem I have is that everything I use for an anode gets dissolved in the process and ends up messing up my solution.
I do not have access to the good stuff like Pt or enough pure gold to try. I am not even sure they would work because I have seen a lot of stuff on the internet where they use electricity and different chemicals to dissolve gold and Pt.

The basic electrowinning process may be best, melt the scrap into an anode and process it in a copper sulfate and sulfuric cell, to get pure copper (hopefully solid) and gold powder to filter out.

 

[Jehu]

Hi all. I just joined up today so go easy on me.

I'm not too sure on the orderof how reactive different metals are but I do know that Aluminium will precipitate out the copper from a copper sulfate solution leaving Aluminium Sulfate, which is used as a blueing tonicfor hydranger flowers. I don't know if it will drop the other metals that we're worried about but if it does you could melt them all together and then put them through the electrowinnowing process, recovering each as you go.

Also on the note of clorine, if you burn it with hydrogen you will get your hydrocloric acid back. So it might be a god idea to try and collect the clorine gas with a fume hood or something and pump it through a bubbler with distilled water in it to scrub it. Then you can get it back later.

Just a few thoughts

 

[Bernie Foley]

Hi all,
Welcome to the forum Jehu!
I think aluminum will precip.most all or if not probly all of the values.
I beginning to see why a thum cell has to have 90% silver to work!!
GSP could tell us all about silver cells. Titanium anodes cathodes when i tried them they either anodized or pitted real bad...even in salt which
titanium is sposed to be impervous to salt and seawater!
Would be nice if we could precip. all the nickel&copper out of solution..
Good luck!..........Bernie