NoIdea
Well-known member
ericrm said:
Hi - is their anyone here know french and possibly translate, or at least a summery pretty please
Thanks
Deano
Wastes - The Elephant in the Room
- Thread starter goldsilverpro
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Help Support Gold Refining Forum:
Hi - is their anyone here know french and possibly translate, or at least a summery pretty please
Thanks
Deano
You have to read into it.
what I mean is that the solution to our problem cannot just be one we believe, we are looking for a way of to MBRs of our waste in a way economic and we're sending our way illegal waste has the garbage but if we were looking for products that are usable has several recovery. a title example (personally I do lai use yet) lacide peroxique reoxigener, which many here to be usable has repeating with support dun arrays a poisson.il in will therefore much control much of sense MBRs legally being that give the cost is amortized over many batch.
shortly be should pick us up a return our product rather than meaning MBRs at lesser cost.
otherwise there is the posssibiliter to change our product to finish with a good trick to environment ex: copper sulphate
If instead using of lacide peroxique to remove the finger from card we use of lacide nitric, the residue is doing is of copper nitrate, even copper nitrate can be converts acid nitric with as residual of copper sulphate which if I'm not mistaken is a common fertilizer...
what I mean is that the solution to our problem cannot just be one we believe, we are looking for a way of to MBRs of our waste in a way economic and we're sending our way illegal waste has the garbage but if we were looking for products that are usable has several recovery. a title example (personally I do lai use yet) lacide peroxique reoxigener, which many here to be usable has repeating with support dun arrays a poisson.il in will therefore much control much of sense MBRs legally being that give the cost is amortized over many batch.
shortly be should pick us up a return our product rather than meaning MBRs at lesser cost.
otherwise there is the posssibiliter to change our product to finish with a good trick to environment ex: copper sulphate
If instead using of lacide peroxique to remove the finger from card we use of lacide nitric, the residue is doing is of copper nitrate, even copper nitrate can be converts acid nitric with as residual of copper sulphate which if I'm not mistaken is a common fertilizer...
ericrm
Well-known member
palladium that is a terrible translation but thank to do your best, in large what i mean its we try to reduce cost to get rid for cheap... maybe we can find something that cost a lot to get rid of but who will also do for multiple use...
also
maybe theyr is a way to treat our base metal so the end solution garbage (can be a good thing for environnement)as an exemple sodium nitate i use to make nitric acid,nitric acide make copper nitrate,copper niitrate is reuse for to make nitric acide with the en product witch is copper sulfate ,if im right is a fertiliser... grosso modo but it better in french.... :|
also
maybe theyr is a way to treat our base metal so the end solution garbage (can be a good thing for environnement)as an exemple sodium nitate i use to make nitric acid,nitric acide make copper nitrate,copper niitrate is reuse for to make nitric acide with the en product witch is copper sulfate ,if im right is a fertiliser... grosso modo but it better in french.... :|
ericrm
Well-known member
At the cathode, electrons are supplied to cations, which migrate to the cathode. The Cu2+ cation is discharged by accepting electrons. At the anode, electrons are supplied to the anions, which migrate to the anode. The half reactions are
Reactions at electrodes during copper(II) chloride electrolysis
Generally speaking, prediction of the nature of the products is complicated by (i) concentration effects and (ii) the rate at which the oxidation and reduction of different ions takes place. Standard electrode potentials can give a rough guide as to what may happen.
As a guide, in fairly concentrated aqueous solution, metals with a positive (reduction potential) will be formed at the cathode.Otherwise, hydrogen is formed by reduction of water or of the H+ ion.
<<<<<<<<<<<<<< Halogens (chlorine, bromine and iodine) are formed at the anode when aqueous solutions of halides are electrolyzed>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>.
The sulphate ion is not discharged (oxidized) at the anode in aqueous solution, rather, oxygen is formed by oxidation of water or of the OH- ion. Thus, electrolysis of sulphates produce oxygen at the anode.
the part that i have put in <<>>> doest that mean in a solution of halide we keep our acid when electrolysed or we lost it??? sorry i try my best to understand but im realy not good....
i might be wrong but if to have h+ in solution means to have an acid,electrolising cucl2 would make cu on one side cl on the other side ,keeping the h+ in solution...
if i sound dumb Im NO F...G SCIENTIST i just try to help, so help me too
Reactions at electrodes during copper(II) chloride electrolysis
Generally speaking, prediction of the nature of the products is complicated by (i) concentration effects and (ii) the rate at which the oxidation and reduction of different ions takes place. Standard electrode potentials can give a rough guide as to what may happen.
As a guide, in fairly concentrated aqueous solution, metals with a positive (reduction potential) will be formed at the cathode.Otherwise, hydrogen is formed by reduction of water or of the H+ ion.
<<<<<<<<<<<<<< Halogens (chlorine, bromine and iodine) are formed at the anode when aqueous solutions of halides are electrolyzed>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>.
The sulphate ion is not discharged (oxidized) at the anode in aqueous solution, rather, oxygen is formed by oxidation of water or of the OH- ion. Thus, electrolysis of sulphates produce oxygen at the anode.
the part that i have put in <<>>> doest that mean in a solution of halide we keep our acid when electrolysed or we lost it??? sorry i try my best to understand but im realy not good....
i might be wrong but if to have h+ in solution means to have an acid,electrolising cucl2 would make cu on one side cl on the other side ,keeping the h+ in solution...
if i sound dumb Im NO F...G SCIENTIST i just try to help, so help me too
NoIdea
Well-known member
Morning All – And what a lovely Saturday morning it is. 
Hi ericrm – For electro stripping of copper sulphate solutions, a passive anode is required, I must admit, I have not tried this approach yet.
The copper sulphate can be treated in the same manner as the copper chloride, instead of aluminium chloride hexahydrate, aluminium sulphate is the final product, this can be dried and heated to produce SO3 gas which can be absorbed into water or existing sulphuric acid.
The sulphate has a higher decomposition temperature than the chloride, which makes me wonder, if a mixed sulphate chloride solution can be dried and then fractionally decompose by monitoring the decomposition temperature.
I guess I’ll find out as I happen to have a mixed solution of sulphate and chloride to work with.
Today is drying day, so I will keep updating as I go. I have around 30+ litres of waste that urgently needs my attention, so far so good.
Check out the tread “Home Made Filter”, it shows the solutions processed in the manner described so far.
Cheers
Deano
Hi ericrm – For electro stripping of copper sulphate solutions, a passive anode is required, I must admit, I have not tried this approach yet.
The copper sulphate can be treated in the same manner as the copper chloride, instead of aluminium chloride hexahydrate, aluminium sulphate is the final product, this can be dried and heated to produce SO3 gas which can be absorbed into water or existing sulphuric acid.
The sulphate has a higher decomposition temperature than the chloride, which makes me wonder, if a mixed sulphate chloride solution can be dried and then fractionally decompose by monitoring the decomposition temperature.
I guess I’ll find out as I happen to have a mixed solution of sulphate and chloride to work with.
Today is drying day, so I will keep updating as I go. I have around 30+ litres of waste that urgently needs my attention, so far so good.
Check out the tread “Home Made Filter”, it shows the solutions processed in the manner described so far.
Cheers
Deano
NoIdea
Well-known member
Hahaha - I was wondering if anyone was gunna pick that up. :lol:
It's 10:26am Saturday the 3rd of Sep, We see in the new year before anyone else, apart from the Cook Islands, I think.
Deano
It's 10:26am Saturday the 3rd of Sep, We see in the new year before anyone else, apart from the Cook Islands, I think.
Deano
jimdoc
Well-known member
NoIdea said:
Can you see tonights winning lottery numbers?
Jim
NoIdea
Well-known member
Sure can - 1,23,32,8,19,.... blast, miss the rest, Sorry :mrgreen:
LMAO
Gotta love a good morning laugh, thanks. :lol:
Deano
LMAO
Gotta love a good morning laugh, thanks. :lol:
Deano
ericrm
Well-known member
harold im very happy that you told it to me ,because i was realy thinking that it was a fertiliser ...
Copper Sulphate fertilizer 98% (CuSO4.5H2O – 893 Similar from this Supplier
????
Copper Sulphate fertilizer 98% (CuSO4.5H2O – 893 Similar from this Supplier
????
NoIdea
Well-known member
Well I looked it up and sure enough it's used in cereal crop production, not much though. Well I never. I was also sure it was used to kill plants and as a timber preservative. learn something new every day, Live and learn. 8)
Other contaminants would be my biggest worry, using waste solutions; producing copper with impurities is allot more forgiving than a fertiliser with impurities.
Deano
Other contaminants would be my biggest worry, using waste solutions; producing copper with impurities is allot more forgiving than a fertiliser with impurities.
Deano
qst42know
Well-known member
I wouldn't call it a fertilizer?
But it does have agricultural uses. Perhaps "fertilizer" refers to a grade of purity or "class" of chemical?
I know of a couple of uses. It's used to suppress wild yeasts in grape crops, and to control algae in ponds. Being an anti fungal it may have many other farming applications, though as a poison the dosage must be critical.
But it does have agricultural uses. Perhaps "fertilizer" refers to a grade of purity or "class" of chemical?
I know of a couple of uses. It's used to suppress wild yeasts in grape crops, and to control algae in ponds. Being an anti fungal it may have many other farming applications, though as a poison the dosage must be critical.
Copper sulfate is used as fungicide used on grapes and other crops.
It is also used to remove roots from sewer lines, sold in hard ware stores like wallmart, I save mine for using in electrolisis, or to dissolve metals higher in series than copper.
http://www.google.com/#hl=en&source=hp&q=copper+sulfate+uses+in+agriculture&oq=copper+sulfate+uses+in+agriculture&aq=f&aqi=g1&aql=&gs_sm=e&gs_upl=2578l18172l0l21672l34l34l0l16l16l0l218l2812l2.12.4l18l0&bav=on.2,or.r_gc.r_pw.&fp=e9e4cb08cebaa4fe&biw=988&bih=573
It is also used to remove roots from sewer lines, sold in hard ware stores like wallmart, I save mine for using in electrolisis, or to dissolve metals higher in series than copper.
http://www.google.com/#hl=en&source=hp&q=copper+sulfate+uses+in+agriculture&oq=copper+sulfate+uses+in+agriculture&aq=f&aqi=g1&aql=&gs_sm=e&gs_upl=2578l18172l0l21672l34l34l0l16l16l0l218l2812l2.12.4l18l0&bav=on.2,or.r_gc.r_pw.&fp=e9e4cb08cebaa4fe&biw=988&bih=573
ericrm
Well-known member
finaly it realy has nothing to do with a fertilizer ,but it can be quit useful when you need it
but in my case it is not to solve the garbadge probleme ,and it even create more probleme nowing that if poeple think it is not that dangerous it will still en up in the toilet....
it is kind of a mind bugger...
can copper be melt on a open fire?
but in my case it is not to solve the garbadge probleme ,and it even create more probleme nowing that if poeple think it is not that dangerous it will still en up in the toilet....
it is kind of a mind bugger...
can copper be melt on a open fire?
ericrm, yes it can.
Copper when heated or trying to melt oxidizes very easily forming copper oxides, but can be melted if oxygen is removed from the melting environment, like adding charcoal or flour to the melt or using some other carbon source, this will take oxygen that would otherwise oxidize the copper, and make CO2 gas, when brazing copper brazing or silver solder rod will contain phosphorous which removes oxygen, copper melts at 1084 degree's C, this is much higher than a normal fire, and would usually need oxygen source to reach these temperature's, you can melt copper but it will cost you much in fuel, probably more than copper could be sold for.
Copper salts would be another issue as far as melting them; you would have acidic gasses generated in the melt, and would most likely end up with copper oxides, depending on your starting materials.
As far as electrolysis, unless the copper was very pure it will not plate to cathode as a solid mass but come out of solution as a fluffy moss.
lets look at a few things we may choose to do with some of the copper solutions we generate, copper II chloride we can reuse in our acid peroxide solutions to dissolve more copper, or we can let it go to copper I chloride powder and use this to dry and store to be regenerated later to CU2Cl, or we can use it to remove gold or silver from solutions (usually in recovery processes), or copper chloride solutions will dissolve metals higher copper oxidizes easily when trying to melt it, using a carbon source like charcoal, flour, in series than copper, which would displace copper from solution and make a chloride solution of that metal, copper sulfate could be made from the copper chloride solutions by adding sulfuric acid and heating to a copper sulfate salt, this copper sulfate can be used in electrolysis cells,
now say we had copper nitrate solution left after cementing silver from a silver nitrate solution, we could make copper chloride from it or copper sulfate, we can crystallize the copper nitrate to salt’s had heat them to 256 deg C and drive off NO2 fumes which if bubbled into some water with a little H2O2 would make nitric acid, or with the copper nitrate salts we could separate the copper electrically from the nitrates, using a graphite anode (inert) and make nitric acid and copper powders, we also can dissolve metals higher in series than our copper in this nitrate solution,
The list can go on, of things we can use, from what we could normally consider to be waste.
Solutions take a lot of room, many of these compounds can be evaporated to salts and saved dry, and used later, who knows maybe some could be sold to eBay, or maybe even the chemistry dept at your local high school has use for some of the salts like copper nitrate, or sulfate for experiments, and maybe the teacher would like you to do a demonstration of dissolving silver, cementing with copper and melting the silver for the students, this would be fun to teach the kids, and then maybe the teacher had a few salts he could give you that his lab no longer needed.
Copper when heated or trying to melt oxidizes very easily forming copper oxides, but can be melted if oxygen is removed from the melting environment, like adding charcoal or flour to the melt or using some other carbon source, this will take oxygen that would otherwise oxidize the copper, and make CO2 gas, when brazing copper brazing or silver solder rod will contain phosphorous which removes oxygen, copper melts at 1084 degree's C, this is much higher than a normal fire, and would usually need oxygen source to reach these temperature's, you can melt copper but it will cost you much in fuel, probably more than copper could be sold for.
Copper salts would be another issue as far as melting them; you would have acidic gasses generated in the melt, and would most likely end up with copper oxides, depending on your starting materials.
As far as electrolysis, unless the copper was very pure it will not plate to cathode as a solid mass but come out of solution as a fluffy moss.
lets look at a few things we may choose to do with some of the copper solutions we generate, copper II chloride we can reuse in our acid peroxide solutions to dissolve more copper, or we can let it go to copper I chloride powder and use this to dry and store to be regenerated later to CU2Cl, or we can use it to remove gold or silver from solutions (usually in recovery processes), or copper chloride solutions will dissolve metals higher copper oxidizes easily when trying to melt it, using a carbon source like charcoal, flour, in series than copper, which would displace copper from solution and make a chloride solution of that metal, copper sulfate could be made from the copper chloride solutions by adding sulfuric acid and heating to a copper sulfate salt, this copper sulfate can be used in electrolysis cells,
now say we had copper nitrate solution left after cementing silver from a silver nitrate solution, we could make copper chloride from it or copper sulfate, we can crystallize the copper nitrate to salt’s had heat them to 256 deg C and drive off NO2 fumes which if bubbled into some water with a little H2O2 would make nitric acid, or with the copper nitrate salts we could separate the copper electrically from the nitrates, using a graphite anode (inert) and make nitric acid and copper powders, we also can dissolve metals higher in series than our copper in this nitrate solution,
The list can go on, of things we can use, from what we could normally consider to be waste.
Solutions take a lot of room, many of these compounds can be evaporated to salts and saved dry, and used later, who knows maybe some could be sold to eBay, or maybe even the chemistry dept at your local high school has use for some of the salts like copper nitrate, or sulfate for experiments, and maybe the teacher would like you to do a demonstration of dissolving silver, cementing with copper and melting the silver for the students, this would be fun to teach the kids, and then maybe the teacher had a few salts he could give you that his lab no longer needed.
NoIdea
Well-known member
Morning All – Just a quick update on recovering HCl from waste solutions.
Recapping So Far:
1. Waste is treated with Copper fines to drop any PGM’s. Solution is blue/green.
2. Waste is treated with Iron bar to drop copper and anything else below iron. Solution is green
3. Waste is treated with Al to drop Ni, Fe, etc. Solution is clearish
4. The aluminium chloride hexahydrate was evaporated to dryness with Al foil present
5. The dried Hexahydrate is distilled to release HCl gas and possibly some Cl gas
6. HCl and Cl gases are dissolved in cold water to produce HCl/Cl acid.
There were traces of nickel still left after dropping with Al, but did not appear to affect the out come.
Note: Do not evaporate the Hexahydrate solution in stainless steel containers. I checked the pH of the evaporating solution through out the process, showed pH neutral up until the solution became saturated, but no HCl fumes were observed. Checked resulting steam with moist universal pH paper.
The hexahydrate appears to be hydroscopic; this may be due to impurities.
Cheers
Deano
Recapping So Far:
1. Waste is treated with Copper fines to drop any PGM’s. Solution is blue/green.
2. Waste is treated with Iron bar to drop copper and anything else below iron. Solution is green
3. Waste is treated with Al to drop Ni, Fe, etc. Solution is clearish
4. The aluminium chloride hexahydrate was evaporated to dryness with Al foil present
5. The dried Hexahydrate is distilled to release HCl gas and possibly some Cl gas
6. HCl and Cl gases are dissolved in cold water to produce HCl/Cl acid.
There were traces of nickel still left after dropping with Al, but did not appear to affect the out come.
Note: Do not evaporate the Hexahydrate solution in stainless steel containers. I checked the pH of the evaporating solution through out the process, showed pH neutral up until the solution became saturated, but no HCl fumes were observed. Checked resulting steam with moist universal pH paper.
The hexahydrate appears to be hydroscopic; this may be due to impurities.
Cheers
Deano
Thanks for the progress update, sounds like the HCl is formed in the fusion and attempts to make back aluminum chloride in fusion, is that the way you see it?
NoIdea
Well-known member
Evening Butcher – Hmm, not sure of the mechanism, but I would suspect it has a lot to do with equilibrium and temperature, at low temperatures the equilibrium will go by way of the hexachloride and as the temperature increases that equilibrium will head towards the aluminium oxide and HCl gas.
I Should Have Noted: I ended up distilling the un-dried hexachloride due to its very hydroscopic nature, brought about by contaminated metal salts, excess aluminium foil added, or just because it likes water. After applying gentle heat, boiling of the goo-wee mass started, producing HCl gas, and water vapour.
In the previous post I noted that the solution became more acid at higher concentrations and that is why I added extra Al foil in an attempt to push the balance of the solution towards the hexahydrate.
To be honest, I am unsure as to what is actually going on, too many variables, but I will stick with it to recover, at least in part, some of my consumed chemicals and reduce my ever mounting waste, which I refuse to “Pour Out”. It’s amazing how much the aluminium pulls out of solution, not to mention the amount of material I have obtained after the iron and copper drop’s, food for thought.
I have, after today, 36lt of aluminium dropped HCl waste solution, with only 2lt reduced to the goo.
Not sure if I answered your question or not.
Cheers
Deano
I Should Have Noted: I ended up distilling the un-dried hexachloride due to its very hydroscopic nature, brought about by contaminated metal salts, excess aluminium foil added, or just because it likes water. After applying gentle heat, boiling of the goo-wee mass started, producing HCl gas, and water vapour.
In the previous post I noted that the solution became more acid at higher concentrations and that is why I added extra Al foil in an attempt to push the balance of the solution towards the hexahydrate.
To be honest, I am unsure as to what is actually going on, too many variables, but I will stick with it to recover, at least in part, some of my consumed chemicals and reduce my ever mounting waste, which I refuse to “Pour Out”. It’s amazing how much the aluminium pulls out of solution, not to mention the amount of material I have obtained after the iron and copper drop’s, food for thought.
I have, after today, 36lt of aluminium dropped HCl waste solution, with only 2lt reduced to the goo.
Not sure if I answered your question or not.
Cheers
Deano
Yes question was answered very well, what material are you using for a distilling vessel glass, or can it take the temperature?
Why not recover most of the HCl, or other acids early in the waste stage that is what I will normally do. Like distilling the acid peroxide waste, or Iron chloride waste, this will concentrate metals in solution, once thick syrup, I move to another jar on cooling the salts crystal out of solution lowering acid content in them, the cool solution can be decanted and redistilled with more of same more dilute waste (reusing these metal salts in recovery or making other metal salts from them, or re-dissolving them depending on what they are), the distilled solutions I normally use in recovery processes, as sometimes they may contain more than one acid like HCL and nitric. (But these can be cleaned up like removing chloride from nitric acid by using silver nitrate), the HCl or even nitric solutions distill off fairly easily, the sulfates usually end up as salts, and even these can be roasted in retort, bubbling gas into sulfuric acid for making more sulfuric acid from resulting oleum (I have not tried this one yet).
Why not recover most of the HCl, or other acids early in the waste stage that is what I will normally do. Like distilling the acid peroxide waste, or Iron chloride waste, this will concentrate metals in solution, once thick syrup, I move to another jar on cooling the salts crystal out of solution lowering acid content in them, the cool solution can be decanted and redistilled with more of same more dilute waste (reusing these metal salts in recovery or making other metal salts from them, or re-dissolving them depending on what they are), the distilled solutions I normally use in recovery processes, as sometimes they may contain more than one acid like HCL and nitric. (But these can be cleaned up like removing chloride from nitric acid by using silver nitrate), the HCl or even nitric solutions distill off fairly easily, the sulfates usually end up as salts, and even these can be roasted in retort, bubbling gas into sulfuric acid for making more sulfuric acid from resulting oleum (I have not tried this one yet).
