what happened!? silver and nickel drop with au?

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chris.bozman42

Well-known member
Joined
May 1, 2011
Messages
47
ok here is my situation. i have digested a test run of gold pins. they are gold all the way through so i initially ran a sulphuric cell test run with minor success. i obtained some gold but the alloy along with what i believe is silver and nickel because they are magnetic caused them to stop deplating the gold. So i moved on to a poor mans test run. 10 grams of pins digested in hcl and sodium nitrate poor mans solution. worked great. up until when I threw the smb in to drop the gold. well it started to drop the gold beautifully but after about 10-15 minutes I went back to check on it and there are silver colored crystals floating around the top and a silver colored sediment settled at the bottom along with Au and I still see a whole lot of Au settling. If anyone can help i thank you! Love this forum!
 

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Probably copper chloride. My guess.

"Ok here is my situation. I have digested a test run of gold pins. They are gold all the way through so I initially ran a sulphuric cell test run with minor success.

Pins will not be gold all the way through they are plated base metals usually copper or Kovar.

"I obtained some gold but the alloy along with what i believe is silver and nickel because they are magnetic caused them to stop deplating the gold.

Magnetic could be iron in Kovar or nickel on copper.Very few pins would give very little gold. How many pounds of pins did you try?

"So i moved on to a poor mans test run. 10 grams of pins digested in HCl and sodium nitrate poor mans solution. Worked great. Up until when I threw the SMB in to drop the gold. Well it started to drop the gold beautifully but after about 10-15 minutes I went back to check on it and there are silver colored crystals floating around the top and a silver colored sediment settled at the bottom along with Au and I still see a whole lot of Au settling. If anyone can help i thank you! Love this forum!"

The green solution with the yellow makes me suspect iron is pushing copper from solution, (although the fluffy powder does resemble silver you will not have silver on this type of pins), copper I chloride is a white powder, when you collect powder see if it dissolves in HCl, copper I chloride will dissolve to become a green or brown if concentrate to copper II chloride, silver chloride will not dissolve in HCl.
 
could it be tin oxide from the brass pins? ive seen solution hold it until diluted.maybe the SMB dropped it as tin(II) sulfate.if it dissolves in water,it may be a sulfate.
 
chris.bozman42 said:
ok here is my situation. i have digested a test run of gold pins. they are gold all the way through so i initially ran a sulphuric cell test run with minor success. i obtained some gold but the alloy along with what i believe is silver and nickel because they are magnetic caused them to stop deplating the gold. So i moved on to a poor mans test run. 10 grams of pins digested in hcl and sodium nitrate poor mans solution. worked great. up until when I threw the smb in to drop the gold. well it started to drop the gold beautifully but after about 10-15 minutes I went back to check on it and there are silver colored crystals floating around the top and a silver colored sediment settled at the bottom along with Au and I still see a whole lot of Au settling. If anyone can help i thank you! Love this forum!
Click to expand...
To reiterate.

None of these type pins are solid gold. They only look that way because the base metal is a yellow copper alloy, which appears as gold to the unitiated. I've been doing this for 45 years and have only seen solid gold pins 2 or 3 times. In these cases, the pins were tiny, much smaller than yours, and they were only used for something very unique or special. Common pins like yours are NEVER solid gold. To make them solid gold would be a huge waste of money and I can guarantee you that the manufacturers never waste money.

These pins are usually a copper alloy plated first with a thin nickel layer, to act as a diffusion barrier, and then with thin gold. Only the nickel is magnetic, and this is attracted somewhat to a very strong magnet. With an ordinary weak magnet, there is only very slight attraction to this small amount of nickel. If the base metal is white and is attracted strongly to an ordinary weak magnet, it is likely kovar, an alloy of iron, nickel, and cobalt. It is best to test these type things with a weak magnet. I use a weak scrap yard magnet on a chain. I hold it by the chain and bring the magnet very slowly and steadily to the object I'm testing (or, visa versa). If gold over nickel plating over copper, the magnet will slightly deviate towards the object when it gets very close.

If the pins are completely gold plated and the color is uniform overall, you can assume the value to be about $0.50 per square inch of surface area, or less, at a $1670 gold spot price. This is based on a gold thickness of 30 millionths of an inch. It could be a bit less than that but will rarely be more. By measuring, weighing, and calculating, you can get a ball park idea of the $ value per pound. If the pins are only partially gold plated or if there are 2 different shades of gold visible, they will be worth less.

The reason the sulfuric cell stopped stripping is because all of the gold had been removed. If the cell solution doesn't get too hot (about 110F, max), only the gold and, maybe, the nickel will be stripped if it is quite thin. When the copper starts becoming exposed, the amperage should start automatically decreasing and will end up very close to zero when all the gold has stripped

If silver is present in a gold plated pin, it would be a real rarity. The last U.S. ones I saw were made in the 1930's or 1940's. As I understand it, Russian pins are more likely to have both gold and silver.
 
first off i made a few mistakes in my post. digested 100 grams of the pins. and forgot to put copper before the word alloy. i used the word alloy because the pins appear to be a gold color all the way through. i filed one in half and the gold color is consistant...i have 52 ounces of the pins. just a test run with 100 grams.

they are only slightly and i mean very slightly magnetic. they barely stick to my rare earth magnet.

i was pretty sure there was no silver but i felt it necessary to ask. the white "powder" is not powder like and more snow flake like, almost every single "flake" looks like little mercedes symbols.

i am currently evaporating the solution down to a more manageable level for recovering the sediments. i will be back as soon as i get through with this stage and collection and testing hcl wash to see if the white sediment digests.

now here is one more question. if the white sediment digests back into solution...will the small amount of Au still be recoverable? my brain says yes. because gold will not dissolve in hcl alone. but i want a second opinion from you guys. Butcher, you are very intelligent when it comes to the actual science of this field. i just read your poor mans ar post last night and it was very in depth and full of great info...and geo you are extremely smart with this stuff too. i have read so many of your posts throughout the forum and trust information obtained from you. thank you guys for helping.

geo: i will also be testing to see if it is a sulfate...even though my mind says its most likely not because the solution is roughly 80%+/- h2o after smb mixed with h2o, NaNO3 mixed with h2o and washing of filter with h2o and diluting solution slightly right before smb added. i will still be testing it in pure h2o though.
 
I posted this is the wrong thread a second ago :oops: :oops:

If you want to know how much gold is on the take some measurements ant put them into Sam's calculator. those look like around 30 micro inches plating thickness but I would put 20-25 so I'm under. then you will see how much gold you are talking about. A 1g BB of gold is about the size of a 3rd of a pencil eraser. http://goldnscrap.com/index.php?option= ... &Itemid=66


L*W*H= surface area not saying you didn't know just for someone that reads this how doesn't.
Eric

100g might give you a measurable result. at least you will be able to see it in the beaker. :lol:
 
goldsilverpro

thanks for that info. thats is basically what i was thinking that it was a copper alloy with heavy plating. when i did the sulphuric cell i pulled a few pins out that had some gold left on them, with a copper colored base metal left behind. the gold plating was thick enough to see with the naked eye and i could feel a height difference with my finger nail. but i still wanted to try the ar method because of the consistent gold color throughout the pins. i am still learning and really like to experiment with different methods to single out the best methods for whatever i am doing. going off your info i should most likely just deplate the pins in a sulphuric cell and collect my sludge and process that through ar or hcl/cl to rid the Au of any nickel or impurities. that seems to be what sounds best in my mind after gaining info from you, geo and butcher. after testing to see if the white sediment is either a sulfate or chloride i will most like be reverting back the to the sulphuric cell and not digesting the entire pins in ar. once again thanks goldsilverpro
 
etack

i was going to calculate the surface area but i never did. i will calculate it here in a little while and see what i come up with. thanks for replying! all info helps and is greatly appreciated!

i have 52 ounces of the pins. even if i get 1 gram off of the entire lot i still win! as the pins were free and the chemicals used cost so little. plus the refine of various gold items i did prior to this method yesterday made my day anyways! will post pictures in a minute of my successful batch prior to this attempt just for a little eye candy!
 
chris.bozman42 said:
i pulled a few pins out that had some gold left on them, with a copper colored base metal left behind. the gold plating was thick enough to see with the naked eye and i could feel a height difference with my finger nail.
Click to expand...
That could be very misleading, since the gold thickness is only about 1/25 of the diameter of the smallest human hair. If you ran the cell hotter than recommended, the copper could etch around the remaining gold and make it appear raised. Also, there is always nickel under the remaining gold, which is several times thicker than the gold. Excess amperage is what heats the solution. Any thing over about 2 to 3 amps per liter, can get it too hot.
 
here are some pictures of my successful run prior to this not so successful run. gold jewelry and solid gold connectors from a melles griot $2500 laser i got for a few bucks at an auction. also got 50+ lbs of aircraft aluminum out of the machine it came out of!
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it was running at around 4 amps max...most of the time more around 3 amps. solution never got hot. it was surrounded by an ice bath.
 
It looks like you combined the 2 solutions and now we will never know whether the connectors were solid gold or not. I tend to doubt it. Why do you think they were solid gold? Is there a good technical reason they would have to be solid gold, when gold plating would probably work just as well?

If the connectors were non magnetic, you could of put one in some 50/50 nitric acid/distilled water solution in a beaker over a little heat. If solid gold greater than about 8K-9K, nothing will happen to the part. If less than 9K, the base metals will dissolve, leaving brown powdery gold on the surface. If gold plated copper, the copper will dissolve, leaving behind very visible bright shiny flakes or foils of gold plating. If everything dissolves, there is no gold, even in the plating. The same test will work on the pins. Something I just though of. If the connectors are plated very thickly with gold, the nitric might not penetrate to the base metal. So, you might file an edge off first before putting the connector in the acid.

You could also file a fairly deep notch in a connector with a small triangular file. Then, put a drop of nitric in the notch. If, after filing, you see the inside of the filed notch is all yellow and, if there is a reaction with the nitric and the solution turns blue or green, it is gold plated copper. You can use 10K gold testing acid for this if you don't have nitric.

Learn to test and not guess, and you'll be money ahead.

Have you read the Hoke book yet? It would set you straight on much of this stuff.
 
i tested the connectors with 50/50 nitric and medium heat. no reaction at all. they came out of a medical laboratory grade laser imaging machine. even before the nitric test i filed a corner off and did a gold test of the outside and the inside with a test stone and acid test kit. all tests showed for solid gold. i ran through 10k all the way to 22k acid tests. all sample lines stayed up until i hit it with the 22k test solution. then it SLIGHTLY disappeared. non magnetic and they looked like fine gold. not plated. the gold color and texture was exactly how my 2 and a half dollar gold coins look so i instantly started testing these. the other parts tested as 10k. the machine i obtained these from sells for $2500 used. it was almost $5000 new when i ordered a quote from bio rad. which is another factor for my reasoning that they were solid gold. it is a class III b green laser set up for rna and dna molecular imaging and analyzing. i also got a lot of pgm plated items from this machine too. also the main board circuitry tested as pgm. circuitry like ive never seen before. all the wires from the machine are pgm wires as well. i will be posting pictures of all the pgm stuff in the next day or 2 in the types of pm scrap and will post a link in this post and will title it Bio Rad gold and pgm score.
 
i have read everything in Hokes book except the platinum group metal related stuff. simply because i do not have the necessary equipment for pgm refining yet. i have a few items that are in my cart on ebay. waiting for pay check tomorrow and ordering. was planning on reading these chapters this weekend and rereading the gold related chapters as well as rerefining and all the final chapters such as how to deal with precious metals where tin and lead are present because i have a load of gold filled stuff i have been saving for a year and want to better understand this process. i plan on reading hoke many times and returning to it for any info.
 
ok i have gone back and checked solution with the white sediment. which i think i have confirmed that its copper chloride. it is digesting back into the hcl and has lost about 75% of its mass and i see Au powder settled on the bottom of the beaker. i think this is turning out to not be as bad as once thought. will update as more happens!
 
Chris,

There are exceptions to everything and, although I am still somewhat skeptical, I'll take your word for it, for now. I do think you should have kept the connectors and the jewelry separate throughout. I assume you weighed both first, though, and will be able to compare the final melted gold weight with what you expected both together to yield, by calculation. I hope you're right. I'm too old to worry about having to eat a little crow.

Chris
 
I understand your skepticism and respect it because i myself was very skeptical hence why i tested it with multiple tests. i initially weighed separately. the 14k batch was 4 grams and the connector batch weighed 3 grams. so after melt i will be able to determine how true my statements are. will be melting this batch tonight or tomorrow. i hope i am right too. next time i will completely keep items of this type separate to get a better idea of what they will yield. i will post results as soon as i have melted into button and weigh. will take pictures as well.
 
If my calculations are correct and your testing was done correctly. I would estimate that you should recieve approximately 4.5-4.8g of gold + or -. Hope you do. Let us know what you get. I would say around 2.25g from jewelery factoring in wear and another 2.25-2.6 from the connectors if they are what you hope they are. Good Luck.
 

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