What to pay for gold plate and gold filled?

[JustinNH]

Lou,

That place seems to be pretty good, especially at only 2% fee. Do they have any minimum amounts that need to be processed? I couldnt see anything on the site about it. I have around a troy ounce of 10k gold jewelry that I got for extremely cheap thanks to Walmart and others that I was thinking of sendign away. I know some places require more or only deal with professional scrap...

Thanks,

 

[skyline27]

They only charge 2%? That seems to good to be true. Am I missing something?

Would it be a good idea to send them gold buttons in return for marked bullion?

 

[Harold_V]

Would it be a good idea to send them gold buttons in return for marked bullion?

That's when you'll discover that it's "too good to be true".

Harold

 

[Lou]

Yeah I'd advise against sending in processed gold to them in exchange for bars. They do let you buy gold and have them ''hold it'' or they'll process your gold, make it into an ingot and give it back to you (there may be a minimum amount) or hold it there and wait until you want to sell it.

I sent in a 5g 18K gold earring as my first transaction to test them out and I got a check that was better than I expected (gold went up ).

I think Tom recommended me to them awhile ago and I've dealt with them on several occasions, sending upwards of 5 t. oz and everything came back as expected. I've also sent several ounces of old broken 14, 10 and 18K and not told them the mass on any of it, secretly keeping note of how much of each I had. I'm glad to say that the check I received was exactly what I expected out of the material.

They have been honest in all of my dealings with them, so I can say that I recommend them and will sell any of my gold to them preferentially over other refineries.


Lou

 

[JustinNH]

Good to know!
Just picked up some more damaged 10k jewelry for around $4 a gram so Im gettign a small collection going....

 

[goldsilverpro]

My son lives near Dallas and I've been helping him get set up to buy karat gold. I suggested that he try out the above-mentioned company that Tom Smith and Lou have been selling to.
http://aragold.com/

I called them the other day and this is what I was told:

They pay 98% over the counter (OTC) for karat gold. However, all OTC calculations are based on 1/2 karat less. For example, 14K is figured as 13.5K. The 3-5 day period, mentioned on the website, is based on a melt and assay, in which case they would pay 98% of the assay. They don't pay for the Ag in karat gold or the Pd in older white gold.

OTC, they pay 88% of the calculated silver content of 92.5% for sterling.

OTC, they pay 80% of the Pt content of Pt jewelry. For Pt/Ir, the Pt runs 90%. For Pt/Ru jewelry, the Pt runs 95%. They don't pay for the Ir or Ru.

These prices seem pretty good to me. Since my son lives close, I told him to buy for 1/2K under and sell everything OTC. The old "bird in hand" thing.

 

[Harold_V]

They pay 98% over the counter (OTC) for karat gold. However, all OTC calculations are based on 1/2 karat less. For example, 14K is figured as 13.5K.

That goes well with my experiences of long ago. Marking regulations allowed for a full karat under if an item was fabricated. Items such as class rings were------and bordered on being 9K, yet it was legal to mark them 10K because of the ½ K allowance for solder, and the ½K allowance for alloying error. It stands to reason that the major manufacturers would take advantage of the lower karat in that the missing gold was replaced with elements of a much lower specific gravity, thus actually increasing the volume by roughly 10%. That was a considerable amount of profit for the makers.

Newer marking regulations dictate the loose tolerance is no longer acceptable, but a huge amount of old gold still remains. It's wise to make calculations on the light side if profit is your game.

Nice post, GSP.

Harold

 

[JustinNH]

I just sent ARA an email with a few questions, so hopefully they get back to me soon and if I like what they have to say Ill be sending them my jewelry. Thanks for the recommendation!

 

[Ignatz61]

I have a question about refining goldfilled scrap.
I may have several pounds of material to refine soon. I am having a tough time getting Nitric Acid. SO I am looking at alternate methods. I have a sulfuric cell made and have run plated material through it with good success.
I know from posts I have read here somewhere that the cell can strip goldfilled items but it takes a long time.
I am wondering if I set up a modified Mobius cell using lead for the box and a lead anode that would sandwich the scrap in between them. I know there cannot be a fabic bag around it as the acid would eat it.
Will this work? or am I going a hundred miles to avoid a ten mile journey?
john

 

[lazersteve]

Check this post:

Poorman's AR

I wrote it for ceramic cpus, but you can use it on Gold Filled if you have the patience for it to complete. Be sure everything is dissolved (except the silver chloride) before you proceed to filtering and precipitation. If your gold filled has considerable stainless you can stop the reaction just after the items are fully dissolved. The gold should have self precipitated (dark brown powder) along with the silver chloride from the iron in the steel. Use your stannous to confirm the there is no gold in the liquid if going this route. I find that the gold tends to be in both forms (solid brown powder and dissolved in the solution).

Dilute nitric is still the ultimate way to dissolve gold filled scrap.

The cell and poor man's AR are both very close for second best.

Steve

 

[Ignatz61]

Ok,
I have researched goldfilled materials and I have read all the posts that a search brings up on this forum. I am a bit confused, I have 14k goldfilled wire. I don't know if it 1/10 or 1/20.

I am processing it in a sulfuric acid cell,My questions are:

1: will the gold I get from the black sludge be 14k or will the silver stay behind?

2: How do I judge when the gold is all off, will the foaming stop like plated material?

3: What is left behind? the wire is non-magnetic so I am thinking copper? Is there a standard base metal for goldfilled?

4. Will there be any values left behind that I should think about refining later? Right now I am only looking for the gold quantity.
would it pay to dissolve in poormans AR the wire after I have removed the gold in the cell.

There seems to be some real experts here. I am hoping you guys can shed some lioght on this for me and any other newbies looking to refing goldfilled material.
Thanks
John

 

[Harold_V]

A sulfuric cell for gold filled is not the best choice. You'd be far better served to dissolve the base metals instead of trying to extract the gold.

Harold

 

[Ignatz61]

Nitric it is then!

My father always told me "when in the presence of experienced people, Keep your eyes and hears open and your mouth shut."

I finally got my hands on 1 liter of 6 molar nitric acid. Should I use this stright or dilute it?

I have 3 1/2 lbs of goldfilled 14k wire will this be enough to disolve all of it?

 

[Harold_V]

I am quite sure you don't have enough nitric. It might pay you to explore one of the work-arounds that others use to eliminate base metals.

As far as dilution, you'll get better mileage from nitric by adding water. If it's very dilute, the work it can do will be the same, it just takes a little longer. Heating will cut short the amount of time necessary to dissolve the base metals, and insure that you have consumed all of the acid. That's important as you near the end of a cycle, when you can't tell if action has slowed because all the base metal is gone, or the acid has been consumed.

When you process gold filled materials, it's always a good idea to get all of the solids together after eliminating the base metals. Incinerate to kill any traces of nitric, plus to eliminate any combustibles, then boil the remains in HCl. Rinse well, then dissolve the values. That way your gold chloride solution will filter easily. Be certain to introduce a few drops of sulfuric acid after you're dissolved the material, which will insure that any lead present will be precipitated as lead sulfate and get filtered out.

Harold

 

[Ignatz61]

Thanks harold,
I am loving this forum, SO I guess AP for the base metals. Wait, what about the silver? After the base metal (copper or brass) is disolved I will still have 14 k gold. Should I then use nitric acid on the remaining metal to remove the silver? Then AR or HCL-Cl to disolve the gold.
This would be great my material would be split into 3 containers!
1. base metal
2 silver
3. gold.
(I could use the silver nitrate for the silver cell I want to make as I have a bunch of silver coming soon in the way of photographic flake. After processing the flake i want to use a mobius cell to refine the silver.)

Am I on the right track here?
john

 

[Harold_V]

Your particular product may not contain lead or silver. It might pay you to dissolve a tiny amount with nitric and see if you get a precipitate of silver chloride. If you use less acid than you have material, you'll see silver cement out on the remaining wire as quickly as the nitric is consumed. Otherwise, place a few drops of the blue solution in a small container and introduce some HCl or salt. If you don't get a cloud, you may not have silver in the gold alloy. All depends on the intended purpose of the wire. If the wire is rose red, pretty good chance it's just gold and copper.

Assuming it tests silver, don't expect much--likely no more than 10% of the amount of gold recovered, if that. Still, it's worth recovering.

As far as using any of the work-arounds, I'm not worth a damn where instruction is concerned. I never used any of them, so I'm not familiar with how they behave. Steve would likely be able to provide answers to your questions.

Harold

 

[Ignatz61]

Boy this is really frustrating!
I have this small batch of a few lbs of the 14k gold filled wire shown here. It is all new wire from a jewelry manufacturer so wear is not an issue.
I have cut it into 1/2" pieces to aid in acid digestion. I put 100 grams in Nitric for 2 days. I switched the acid twice and while some pieces are now hollow many still have solid center sections. I have used 500ml and only have 1 more 500ml bottle.

Time being short I started another batch this time 10 grams.

I need to quote on a much larger batch soon based on the yield from this test batch. So my thinking is if there is no time to dissolve and wash and melt, I could weigh the foils from either the 100 g or 10 g samples and determine the actual percent of gold for the wire and extrapolate that to a larger batch quoting 75% of the gold value.

The real problem seems to be the small surface area exposed to the acid. Only the ends of the wire! Cutting it small is a pain but seems to help.
Also, some of the wire seems to strip much faster than others. there is about 4 different profiles , all supposed to be 14k. The square seems to go much faster than some of the rounds. Are there known fillers for gold filled that are hard for the acid to dissolve?

I could really use some help here.
How much Nitric should it take to dissolve 10 or 100grams of this wire?
what is the dilution ratio? I am starting with 6 molar nitric.

I tested the cell on a piece, then put the remainder in Nitric figuring if I got all the gold with the cell then there would be nothing left after the nitric did it's thing. After 1 day there was still a thin hollow shell, so the cell did not get everything.

I tried a saltwater cell with a copper cathode(-) and the wire as the (+). This should have ripped the copper out but seemed to dissolve everything. It worked fast but made a brown mud that looked like a lot of work to sort out.
I have another 100 grams in AP but that is going sooooo sloow!

Finally, I have put 10 grams more in a small rock tumbler! I tested the grit with Nitric, HCL and AR none of them effect the grit. So my plan is to let it tumble, stripping off the gold outer layer and maybe some of the copper or brass. Next pick out he remaining wire pieces and cover the powder (grit+gold+copper, silver , brass etc) in Nitric acid or AP to dissolve the base metals that are now very exposed. Then filter and process the rest with AR. Filter the grit out and drop the gold with SMB.
As you can see I am grasping for straws! This whole Nitric thing is new to me, I have the sulfuric cell working great now I would like to master this. But I could use some help.
thanks,
john

 

[lazersteve]

If the wire responds to a magnet it most likely has at the very least a partial stainless steel core.

For Gold Filled over stainless I have found that the modified poor mans AR works best.

Here's a link to the process:

Modified Poorman's AR

The outline is for CPUs, but the process also works for gold filled items with stainless cores with a little modification.

With gold filled stainless steel the AR will need to be poured off and changed after it becomes dark green (saturated with iron and/or salts form). This process is very similar to how Harold has recommended AR with certain items. The idea is to remove the base metal with 2-3 successive AR treatments. After the cores are removed from the gold shells a final batch of AR is used to dissolve the rinsed shells.

I have successfully dissolved several pounds of GF material in one batch on many occasions using this process.

Steve

 

[Harold_V]

The idea is to remove the base metal with 2-3 successive AR treatments. After the cores are removed from the gold shells a final batch of AR is used to dissolve the rinsed shells.

No----that's not what happens, unless you meant to say AP, not AR. Because gold is exposed to the solution, it will dissolve, but as the level (of acid) falls off, the exposed base metal will precipitate (cement) the dissolved gold, leaving it behind as fine mud, likely dark brown to black. If stainless is involved, this is going to be a nasty proposition because once gold is put in solution, it can't precipitate on the remaining gold, only the remaining base metals. The ideal scenario would be to get all of the gold in solution about the time the acid ran out. The base metal would then be dissolved in the process of cementing the gold. A delicate balance, to be sure, but it's a way of getting rid of the base metal.

Assuming the chain is copper based, boiling the material in nitric is a good way to go, and incinerating the material to redness before you start isn't a bad idea, either.

A stripping cell of any kind won't work because the copper that's present in the alloy protects the gold, and the gold that's present protects the copper, so it's difficult to strip the alloy.

Right now, what might be important to determine is what the base metal is. If it's stainless, you're wasting your time with nitric------but your comment that you have achieved some success indicates it is not. Incinerating, cutting to short lengths, then a hard boil in nitric should work, assuming it's copper based alloy. If it is copper based, as the ends dissolve, stir the lot to break off the gold tubes, making the path to the core shorter. That should accelerate the process. Better yet, run the wire through a set of rolls and flatten it as thin as you can. Acid will perforate the gold coating easily that way.

Harold

 

[Ignatz61]

Thanks for the quick reply!

The base metals is copper and some may be brass. Nothing magnetic.
I am a bit confused about the nitric. When first put in with the wire I get the red/brown fumes.( All precuations taken, covered beaker , exhaust ...)

When the red fumes stop is the nitric done? Or do I boil at that point to get the reaction going again?

How do I know when the nitric has nothing left and needs to be changed?

About how much nitric acid should it takes to dissolve 100 grams of copper/brass?
john