What will hold up ?
- Thread starter smj
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I'm not surprised. When you concentrate heat in a small area, the area expands. If the surrounding area doesn't expand equally, you can expect a fracture, as the heated area is trying to separate the pieces you ended up with. I cracked the (concrete) floor in my furnace room that way after running my large furnace for hours.
Fused quartz is reputed to be able to withstand being heated to redness and then plunged in water without breaking, but I'm not familiar with anything else (non-metallic) that can tolerate such treatment. Yeah, I realize what you're using isn't fused quartz, but that helps explain why yours cracked, at least I think it does.
I did all of my incinerating in a stainless fry pan. While it does slowly degrade, they'd last me for months on end, and that's being used on a daily basis. The small one I used for incinerating filings from the jeweler's bench lasted for years, as there was nothing in the filings to degrade the stainless, unlike pans I used to dry polishing wastes after leaching the values with aqua regia. The small one was a discarded boy scout fry pan, which proved to be an excellent size for filings.
You might consider changing your incineration procedures by switching to old stainless pans. They're available at the second hand stores for reasonable prices. I used to pay no more than $3 each for large ones.
If you make the switch, be careful to not end up with aluminum pans, or pans with aluminum faced bottoms, as they'll melt.
Harold
Edit:
I just took a look at the link posted by Palladium. Maybe I'll have to change the way I think about there not being other compounds that can resist thermal shock! :lol:
Fused quartz is reputed to be able to withstand being heated to redness and then plunged in water without breaking, but I'm not familiar with anything else (non-metallic) that can tolerate such treatment. Yeah, I realize what you're using isn't fused quartz, but that helps explain why yours cracked, at least I think it does.
I did all of my incinerating in a stainless fry pan. While it does slowly degrade, they'd last me for months on end, and that's being used on a daily basis. The small one I used for incinerating filings from the jeweler's bench lasted for years, as there was nothing in the filings to degrade the stainless, unlike pans I used to dry polishing wastes after leaching the values with aqua regia. The small one was a discarded boy scout fry pan, which proved to be an excellent size for filings.
You might consider changing your incineration procedures by switching to old stainless pans. They're available at the second hand stores for reasonable prices. I used to pay no more than $3 each for large ones.
If you make the switch, be careful to not end up with aluminum pans, or pans with aluminum faced bottoms, as they'll melt.
Harold
Edit:
I just took a look at the link posted by Palladium. Maybe I'll have to change the way I think about there not being other compounds that can resist thermal shock! :lol:
Pyroceram dishes are tough but not indestructible. Get a big enough hammer and you can smash almost anything.
Using a rosebud, or a cutting torch tip would be like using a sledge hammer to nail tacks to the sheetrock wall, you can probably get the job done with extreme care, but using a smaller hammer tack hammer will work better.
The rose bud is such a hot torch it would be hard to set the torch low enough to work with, and it would be hard to control the flame to where you were not blowing the powders out of the dish, or to keep from melting the powders.
Pick the best tool for the job.
There are several ways you can do the incineration, and several tools you can use, when using torches, you need to pick one that will get the job done without damage to the things you are working on.
With acetylene oxygen torch set you have several tips to choose from depending on the job you are doing you can pick the best torch tip for that type of work.
With the regulators and the valves of the torch you can also set the torch to different settings to get the flame setting, or temperature setting needed to work with the torch tip you are using, on the material or job you have at hand, you can not expect to cut a thick piece of steel with the small welding tip, and you can not expect to be able to easily weld thin metal together with the cutting head of your torch.
You can use a smaller torch tip from your oxygen/acetylene torch, or use a cheaper small propane torch to incinerate powders if you use the torch's correctly, there are many different tools you can use, you need to learn to pick the right tool for the job and learn how to use it, you do not need a bull dozer to pull weeds from your wife’s flower bed, and you do not need to use the rosebud on your wife’s pyroceram dish.
Having a bit of fun of fun with you here, I am sorry for your poor dishes, I have a few pyroceram dishes I love, they have took some very harsh treatment from me, and have survived it all, I would hate to break one from treating it too badly, I would hate to lose one, they have been such good friends, helping me in so many ways to get the work done in the lab.
Treat your pyroceram a bit more kindly and they will help you get many different jobs done, they are great tools in the lab and have many different uses.
Using a rosebud, or a cutting torch tip would be like using a sledge hammer to nail tacks to the sheetrock wall, you can probably get the job done with extreme care, but using a smaller hammer tack hammer will work better.
The rose bud is such a hot torch it would be hard to set the torch low enough to work with, and it would be hard to control the flame to where you were not blowing the powders out of the dish, or to keep from melting the powders.
Pick the best tool for the job.
There are several ways you can do the incineration, and several tools you can use, when using torches, you need to pick one that will get the job done without damage to the things you are working on.
With acetylene oxygen torch set you have several tips to choose from depending on the job you are doing you can pick the best torch tip for that type of work.
With the regulators and the valves of the torch you can also set the torch to different settings to get the flame setting, or temperature setting needed to work with the torch tip you are using, on the material or job you have at hand, you can not expect to cut a thick piece of steel with the small welding tip, and you can not expect to be able to easily weld thin metal together with the cutting head of your torch.
You can use a smaller torch tip from your oxygen/acetylene torch, or use a cheaper small propane torch to incinerate powders if you use the torch's correctly, there are many different tools you can use, you need to learn to pick the right tool for the job and learn how to use it, you do not need a bull dozer to pull weeds from your wife’s flower bed, and you do not need to use the rosebud on your wife’s pyroceram dish.
Having a bit of fun of fun with you here, I am sorry for your poor dishes, I have a few pyroceram dishes I love, they have took some very harsh treatment from me, and have survived it all, I would hate to break one from treating it too badly, I would hate to lose one, they have been such good friends, helping me in so many ways to get the work done in the lab.
Treat your pyroceram a bit more kindly and they will help you get many different jobs done, they are great tools in the lab and have many different uses.
RikkiRicardo
Well-known member
this is a good read up
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Glass-ceramic
RikkiRicardo
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Glass-ceramic
RikkiRicardo
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- Feb 25, 2007
- Messages
- 8,360
Interestingly, the large Hoke torch (does that name ring a bell?) I used to use had exactly that---a rosebud tip. I used it for all of my work, including incineration. For melting pure gold, I used a different (but identical) tip, to ensure that no contaminants fell from the torch tip to contaminate the double refined gold. That tip was cleaned on a regular basis by sanding with fine abrasive cloth.
Smaller Hoke torches are unlike the rosebud, as they have but a single orifice, and there are various sized tips, just as there are for welding torches. They tend to be more convenient to use at the bench than the large torch, as it rivals the typical welding torch in size.
For the record, I purchased my Hoke torch from Freshman's (jewelry supply, in Utah). That was more than 30 years ago. A recent inquiry revealed that they no longer offer the torch, which I suspect is no longer made.
I used my Hoke torch with oxygen and natural gas. It was suited perfectly to the work I did, and varied very little from the typical rose bud, so using one wouldn't be all that bad of a decision, at least in my opinion.
Harold
Smaller Hoke torches are unlike the rosebud, as they have but a single orifice, and there are various sized tips, just as there are for welding torches. They tend to be more convenient to use at the bench than the large torch, as it rivals the typical welding torch in size.
For the record, I purchased my Hoke torch from Freshman's (jewelry supply, in Utah). That was more than 30 years ago. A recent inquiry revealed that they no longer offer the torch, which I suspect is no longer made.
I used my Hoke torch with oxygen and natural gas. It was suited perfectly to the work I did, and varied very little from the typical rose bud, so using one wouldn't be all that bad of a decision, at least in my opinion.
Harold
I am not familiar with the Hoke torch and its rosebud, I suspect it to be similar to the oxygen /gas torch and tips, except a bit smaller for the jewelers bench, and the work they perform.
But I am familiar with the rosebud of the acetylene/oxygen torch, (normally used to heat very thick metal almost to its melting point) and how to use the rosebud and other tips of acetylene gas, and how to adjust them for the application at hand, it can be used in many application from incineration to melting gold. I also see where a rose bud could be used in incineration even in the ceramic pyroceram dish (if it was adjusted and used properly).
I did not mean to say it could not be used, but that it may not be the best choice, much would depend on how you are using it also, and your skill with the tools.
I also see where another torch tip or even fuel source, may work better with the dish or material you have at hand, or with the skills you have in using them, whether in incineration, welding or melting gold, or whatever, understanding how to pick the tools for the job at hand and how to use them, is a big part of getting any job done, I guess what I am trying to say here is you can use the sledge hammer to drive the tack in the sheet rock if you understand how to do it, or that is the only hammer in the tool box at the time.
Basically if not used right you could break the pyroceram dish with many different types of torches, or other heat sources, it is not only the torch and how it is adjusted, but also how you heat the ceramic dish.
I could weld metal with a rose bud, but then it is easier with another torch tip, or I can heat metal with a welding tip, but a rosebud may work better, it is not only the tools and materials, but also the skills you have with the tools and materials, and how you use them together.
Even with the boy scout stainless steel pan if the rosebud was not adjusted or used properly, you can blow all of the gold out of the pan and burn a big hole through the bottom of that pan.
if working from the bottom of the pan, with the torch (rosebud or other tips) burn a hole through the pan and then blow the gold out.
Not only is it what tool you choose but also how you use that tool.
I struggle to explain what I wish to say in a way that makes sense, you need to know the tools you are using, and how to use them, its not that the tool will not work, or that another tool or dish would work better, it is also how they are used.
My wife still wont let me back into her little flower bed with my tractor and plow, although I think I could get the weeds out next time, if she would let me try again, without digging up all of her roses.
I can easily use the rose bud with my pyroceram dish and know I will not break it. or blow my gold out of the dish, I can work from the bottom of the dish and then the top with the torch and not blow the powders out, but to try and explain how to some one else, without being there to physically show them how I would do it, and not to break their dish I would suggest they use a different tool like a cheap propane torch, or pull the weeds in their wife’s flower bed by hand.
But I am familiar with the rosebud of the acetylene/oxygen torch, (normally used to heat very thick metal almost to its melting point) and how to use the rosebud and other tips of acetylene gas, and how to adjust them for the application at hand, it can be used in many application from incineration to melting gold. I also see where a rose bud could be used in incineration even in the ceramic pyroceram dish (if it was adjusted and used properly).
I did not mean to say it could not be used, but that it may not be the best choice, much would depend on how you are using it also, and your skill with the tools.
I also see where another torch tip or even fuel source, may work better with the dish or material you have at hand, or with the skills you have in using them, whether in incineration, welding or melting gold, or whatever, understanding how to pick the tools for the job at hand and how to use them, is a big part of getting any job done, I guess what I am trying to say here is you can use the sledge hammer to drive the tack in the sheet rock if you understand how to do it, or that is the only hammer in the tool box at the time.
Basically if not used right you could break the pyroceram dish with many different types of torches, or other heat sources, it is not only the torch and how it is adjusted, but also how you heat the ceramic dish.
I could weld metal with a rose bud, but then it is easier with another torch tip, or I can heat metal with a welding tip, but a rosebud may work better, it is not only the tools and materials, but also the skills you have with the tools and materials, and how you use them together.
Even with the boy scout stainless steel pan if the rosebud was not adjusted or used properly, you can blow all of the gold out of the pan and burn a big hole through the bottom of that pan.
if working from the bottom of the pan, with the torch (rosebud or other tips) burn a hole through the pan and then blow the gold out.
Not only is it what tool you choose but also how you use that tool.
I struggle to explain what I wish to say in a way that makes sense, you need to know the tools you are using, and how to use them, its not that the tool will not work, or that another tool or dish would work better, it is also how they are used.
My wife still wont let me back into her little flower bed with my tractor and plow, although I think I could get the weeds out next time, if she would let me try again, without digging up all of her roses.
I can easily use the rose bud with my pyroceram dish and know I will not break it. or blow my gold out of the dish, I can work from the bottom of the dish and then the top with the torch and not blow the powders out, but to try and explain how to some one else, without being there to physically show them how I would do it, and not to break their dish I would suggest they use a different tool like a cheap propane torch, or pull the weeds in their wife’s flower bed by hand.
I've used the pyroceram dishes quite a few times to incinerate papers. However, instead of a torch, I covered the papers with methanol and lit them. It took several applications of the methanol. At the end, when only a few glowing pieces of paper remained, I finished burning them with oxygen only from a torch, at very low pressure, of course.
At one place I worked, when I had a lot of papers, like several buckets full, I used a large stainless pan about 4" deep. To burn them, I covered them with a mixture of about 1/3 diesel and 2/3 gasoline. The diesel tones down the gas considerably. Here again, it took several applications.
Loewen, in his great book, suggests using charcoal starter, which might be the best idea yet.
When using any of these solvents, constant stirring and turning over the papers really speeds up the burning and results in a more complete burn.
At one place I worked, when I had a lot of papers, like several buckets full, I used a large stainless pan about 4" deep. To burn them, I covered them with a mixture of about 1/3 diesel and 2/3 gasoline. The diesel tones down the gas considerably. Here again, it took several applications.
Loewen, in his great book, suggests using charcoal starter, which might be the best idea yet.
When using any of these solvents, constant stirring and turning over the papers really speeds up the burning and results in a more complete burn.
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I avoided the use of any accelerant, finding that simply heating the pan at high heat was adequate to incinerate everything I encountered. I'd use the torch at the end, to raise the temperature to the point where unburned carbon would ignite, just as GSP suggested. That was an excellent way to know when the carbon was gone.
In regards to using an accelerant, although not intentional, that was how I set my lab/garage/house on fire. I've related the experience before, but in a nutshell, one of my regular customers had submitted his polishing wastes for refining. At this point in time, my sole fume hood was made of fiber glass, which is not a good idea.
I placed the remains of his polishing wastes in the pan, plus the large plastic bag in which it was received. If any of you have incinerated plastic bags, you understand that they don't really burn. They get hot, and they turn to oil. Then they're all too willing to burn! You now have an oil fire. Unfortunately for me, I had had my wisdom teeth extracted that day, and didn't feel great. Set the material on the hood and then made the fatal mistake of going to my bedroom for a brief rest. Forgot about the incineration process. Not too long afterwards I went to kitchen, when I heard a noise coming from the lab. Quickly walked there and opened the door, to be greeted by thick black smoke down to waist level. Ducked down (under the smoke) and made my way to the fume hood, at which time I could see the entire hood blazing away, along with the underside of the roof of the garage.
I won't bore you with the rest of the story. Just learn that if you use an accelerant, don't leave it unattended.
Harold
In regards to using an accelerant, although not intentional, that was how I set my lab/garage/house on fire. I've related the experience before, but in a nutshell, one of my regular customers had submitted his polishing wastes for refining. At this point in time, my sole fume hood was made of fiber glass, which is not a good idea.
I placed the remains of his polishing wastes in the pan, plus the large plastic bag in which it was received. If any of you have incinerated plastic bags, you understand that they don't really burn. They get hot, and they turn to oil. Then they're all too willing to burn! You now have an oil fire. Unfortunately for me, I had had my wisdom teeth extracted that day, and didn't feel great. Set the material on the hood and then made the fatal mistake of going to my bedroom for a brief rest. Forgot about the incineration process. Not too long afterwards I went to kitchen, when I heard a noise coming from the lab. Quickly walked there and opened the door, to be greeted by thick black smoke down to waist level. Ducked down (under the smoke) and made my way to the fume hood, at which time I could see the entire hood blazing away, along with the underside of the roof of the garage.
I won't bore you with the rest of the story. Just learn that if you use an accelerant, don't leave it unattended.
Harold
I'm using pyroceram as a catch vessel in my furnace for a crucible. I will have to shoot a video of it next time. The pyroceram glows red, but the flower patterns stay cooler and retain their features. Remember all Pyroceram is not the same because they changed formulas a couple of times. That looks like on of the newer ones. Does it have a "P" designation?
Attachments
No P designation but it has Pyroceram spelled out in full. These were purchased the same day especially for a particular batch. Most of the work was finished in the first dish and completed in the second. The second dish did much better and the job was completed. I decided to burn a rag, old t shirt i was wearing a few months ago when i spilled some aucl and used my shirt to epee it off the counter. It held up until the end when i turned up the oxy. Then it cracked right down the center. I think it had allot to do with the fact that there was a gap in my ceramic wool creating a cold air pocket. Otherwise nice dishes.
Geo
Well-known member
I have one that I will get picture of and post. It's been red many times and white in spots a couple of times. It has a cornflower pattern and the letters are not printed on, they are raised.
