Where in Canada or the States can you get Aqua Regia training ?

[401Gold]

Hey all

I want to begin my journey of refining gold, and I want to get it right on both the process and the equipment required

I've been looking at this system (https://www.ishor.com/aqua-regia-gold-refining-system), and what concerns me is that it apparently can only refine to 99.95% purity

Naturally I would far prefer to refine to 99.99

Any suggestions or thoughts would be most welcome

 

[Shark]

Just my take but forget ishor and study the forum. What the forum teach’s will be cleaner and easier to understand as well as to work with. Of course you could spend a bunch of money and hire a personal trainer, but I have no idea what that would cost.

 

[4metals]

Welcome to the forum.

hiring a consultant to teach you to refine isn't cheap, I happen to know a thing or two about that. The only folks who benefit from hiring a consultant are those who wish to refine commercially and have an established business to bring in the work. For a hobby refiner or a small shop, save your consulting fee's and put it towards a good hood and scrubber setup.

And listen to Shark, he learned his skills here! (is it shark or The Shark?)

 

[Shark]

And listen to Shark, he learned his skills here! (is it shark or The Shark?)

When I started here I had no idea how or where to get nitric acid. I learned to make my own here. I had never used Copper(ll) chloride before, based on what I learned here I used my own process version and used it for three years before getting away from electronic scrap. I had never ran an electrolysis cell of any kind before, now I can run copper cells, silver cells and a few others. And that is just little of what I have learned here. The things I learned to do from this forum could easily amount to a college education. And I even made a few dollars along the way.

Much thanks to those who have taught me all of this.

 

[Yggdrasil]

Hey all

I want to begin my journey of refining gold, and I want to get it right on both the process and the equipment required

I've been looking at this system (https://www.ishor.com/aqua-regia-gold-refining-system), and what concerns me is that it apparently can only refine to 99.95% purity

Naturally I would far prefer to refine to 99.99

Any suggestions or thoughts would be most welcome

You have been given good advice here.
I posted some links for your studies on your introduction post.

 

[401Gold]

Welcome to the forum.

hiring a consultant to teach you to refine isn't cheap, I happen to know a thing or two about that. The only folks who benefit from hiring a consultant are those who wish to refine commercially and have an established business to bring in the work. For a hobby refiner or a small shop, save your consulting fee's and put it towards a good hood and scrubber setup.

And listen to Shark, he learned his skills here! (is it shark or The Shark?)

I'm buying around a kilo of scrap a week, and that number is growing. So I hope that gets me into the commercial level you mention, so getting someone to train me is pretty important. If you have any contacts at all, please let me know

 

[4metals]

I hope that gets me into the commercial level you mention,

Barely. I have been working in and setting up refineries and training the personnel since the '70's so as you can imagine, I'm old. I have pretty much retired from consulting and I honestly do not know anyone who can help you get set up and environmentally approved and teach you what you need to know.

But I'll tell you what I am willing to do. If you give us the details about what you are looking to do, not specifics like who you are and where you are setting up, but details about what you wish to accomplish, I can walk you through it every step of the way to get you set up and operating. This offer alone will save you $15-20,000 US dollars. If you want to take me up on this offer let me know, in fact reply by answering these first few questions.

1. What do you plan on doing with your refined gold? Do you have a buyer and what purity does it need to be?
2. I assume you will be a registered business and as such be able to purchase the chemicals classic refiners use for recovery.
3. Exactly what type of scrap are you buying?
4. Are you equipped with any device to perform analysis on your metals like an XRF?
5. do you have a place in mind where you want to set up this start-up refinery?

This should do for now. If you are serious I will commit to help you on this forum so many more members can benefit in the same way you will.

 

[401Gold]

1. What do you plan on doing with your refined gold? Do you have a buyer and what purity does it need to be?
I need 99.99 and I plan on making my own product
2. I assume you will be a registered business and as such be able to purchase the chemicals classic refiners use for recovery.
correct yes
3. Exactly what type of scrap are you buying?
mostly jewellery
4. Are you equipped with any device to perform analysis on your metals like an XRF?
I own several XRF's
5. do you have a place in mind where you want to set up this start-up refinery?
First I need to know if this is feasible, then I will be finding a suitable industrial space

 

[4metals]

First I need to know if this is feasible

In a word, absolutely! Karat gold jewelry is by far one of the easiest scraptypes to refine and to refine well.

I need 99.99 and I plan on making my own product

While it is feasible to make 9999 fine gold that an XRF will tell you is .9999 fine, a true determination is done with an ICP and measuring the impurities to imply .9999 by difference. Why am I saying this? (other than it is true) Because if you plan to mint your own coins or investment bars it may come to the point where someone has a coin analyzed and if it comes up .9998 you are in trouble. Numbered coins and bars are traceable to analytics on the refining lots they came from. You could have your product analyzed by an independent lab, or an in house lab which you have qualified, but that can be costly.

There are options, such as sending your refined gold to a refiner and taking their certified shot in return and casting their gold into coins. Actually this can be an option as you scale up.

But we are getting ahead of ourselves. Just know that even gold refined by the Ishor system will need proof of assay to use it as you wish. There are tricks to make your refined gold .9999 but I want you to be aware that you may have to do this to meet your final goals.

Let's talk about getting you to your goals. First and foremost, the ability to buy the acids you need to do this work is possible because you are, or will be, a registered refiner.

Basically to get started you will need a refining hood with good exhaust. You will need a strong vacuum generator, and possibly a fume scrubber. Canada's environmental rules often parallel the rules in the US. Many states give an exemption, or a de minimus status for nitric acid emissions. That quantity is usually 10 pounds daily. Truth is using 10 pounds of nitric a day will allow you to refine a bit over 110 ounces a day without a scrubber. You will need to determine if Toronto will grant you a de minimus status. If they do, there are rules to follow to show you are in compliance. If they do not, a properly sized fume scrubber will remove 99+% of your NOx fumes and keep you in compliance.

As far as space is concerned you should get by with a 500 sq ft space which will include about 100 sq ft for a melt area. High ceilings help and there must be a clear path to the roof for exhaust ducts. One for a melt furnace, one for your main hood exhaust, and (if needed) one for scrubbed emissions.

There are existing threads about both building your own hoods and scrubber or showing professionally made systems. I will look for some threads to link you to on the forum which will help. I'll likely post some links tomorrow.

In the meanwhile inquire about the de minimus status for generating NOx from refining. I believe in setting up hoods with all of the ducting to allow setting up so the fumes take 2 paths which, if you do not need a scrubber now, combine before passing out of the shop and if and when you need to add a scrubber, it is easy to add it into the system.

 

[4metals]

Having thought about this overnight, I get the impression that you may not be the DIY type and you may prefer to buy manufactured equipment to do this type of work in. So let me speculate further.

A kilo of gold scrap to be refined needs to be melted and poured into shot to give you both a homogeneous mixture (to negate the effect of potentially higher Silver content on some pieces) and to provide more surface area. A kilo of gold alloy will dissolve in about 4.25 liters of aqua regia, this can safely be handled in a 10 liter beaker and give you plenty of room for a rise in the reaction to prevent spills.

This size processing can easily be carried out in off the shelf glassware. They do make 20 liter beakers as well which can handle close to 3 kilo's at a time but at that size, and the shape of a cylindrical beaker make it harder to handle for pouring and filtering.

There are companies like Italimpianti in Italy that make equipment to handle lots as small as 100 ounces or less but personally I think beakers are the best way to handle this type of processing. Plus there are reactors that can easily handle lots as large as 300 ounces which will integrate easily into a single or double hood arrangement and accommodate future growth. This
is a photo of one of the smaller tumbler plants Italimpianti makes. It will not make 9999 gold in a single pass and I think it will limit your ability to handle special types of processing you will encounter.

The special lots I mentioned are processing dental scrap or chemical stone removal. You will accumulate in your purchases goods that have diamonds and precious gems in them. These are best handled in a beaker or small reactor. The last thing we want to do when setting you up is limit your capabilities down the road.

To give you a sampling of a professionally fabricated refinery doing essentially what you want to do, you can look at this thread. He is also doing fire assays which, at this point, you are not looking to get into. You can also go the DIY route and there are threads in this search which will help you decide on a fume scrubber and this search which concentrates on hoods.

Getting a good exhaust hood and a decent vacuum are necessary for you to begin processing. Honestly, with karat gold we can walk you through that process step by step once you are set up to handle the material safely.

Do you expect to buy scrap from small buyers who host gold buying parties? If you do, you will need a capability to melt the goods they bring you and buy them outright based on your XRF. This has to figure in to your setup plans as well.

 

[401Gold]

Having thought about this overnight, I get the impression that you may not be the DIY type and you may prefer to buy manufactured equipment to do this type of work in. So let me speculate further.

A kilo of gold scrap to be refined needs to be melted and poured into shot to give you both a homogeneous mixture (to negate the effect of potentially higher Silver content on some pieces) and to provide more surface area. A kilo of gold alloy will dissolve in about 4.25 liters of aqua regia, this can safely be handled in a 10 liter beaker and give you plenty of room for a rise in the reaction to prevent spills.

This size processing can easily be carried out in off the shelf glassware. They do make 20 liter beakers as well which can handle close to 3 kilo's at a time but at that size, and the shape of a cylindrical beaker make it harder to handle for pouring and filtering.

There are companies like Italimpianti in Italy that make equipment to handle lots as small as 100 ounces or less but personally I think beakers are the best way to handle this type of processing. Plus there are reactors that can easily handle lots as large as 300 ounces which will integrate easily into a single or double hood arrangement and accommodate future growth. This View attachment 63572
is a photo of one of the smaller tumbler plants Italimpianti makes. It will not make 9999 gold in a single pass and I think it will limit your ability to handle special types of processing you will encounter.

The special lots I mentioned are processing dental scrap or chemical stone removal. You will accumulate in your purchases goods that have diamonds and precious gems in them. These are best handled in a beaker or small reactor. The last thing we want to do when setting you up is limit your capabilities down the road.

To give you a sampling of a professionally fabricated refinery doing essentially what you want to do, you can look at this thread. He is also doing fire assays which, at this point, you are not looking to get into. You can also go the DIY route and there are threads in this search which will help you decide on a fume scrubber and this search which concentrates on hoods.

Getting a good exhaust hood and a decent vacuum are necessary for you to begin processing. Honestly, with karat gold we can walk you through that process step by step once you are set up to handle the material safely.

Do you expect to buy scrap from small buyers who host gold buying parties? If you do, you will need a capability to melt the goods they bring you and buy them outright based on your XRF. This has to figure in to your setup plans as well.

I had a meeting this morning with a major player in the precious metals markets here in Canada, and he gave me the following advice.

Aqua Regia isn't a scalable solution for our needs, and they bought this Italian equipment (as you showed here), and had what can only be described as mixed results.

He did mention that there is a better way to refine gold that uses chlorine gas, and he will be getting me further information on this process at our next meeting.

I would be glad to share this with you if you like.

So a huge thank you for all your feedback, and know that

 

[4metals]

He did mention that there is a better way to refine gold that uses chlorine gas, and he will be getting me further information on this process at our next meeting.

You are talking about the Miller chlorine process. This process involves melting your karat scrap and bubbling chlorine gas into the molten pool which oxidizes the base metals and converts the Silver in the alloy to Silver Chloride which floats on the top of the molten gold like a meringue on a lemon meringue pie. This is skimmed off and the gold, which now contains any PGM's is in excess of 99% pure but no better.

The next step is electrolytic gold cell called a Wohlwill process which will bring your gold up to 9999. Any PGM's and any remaining Silver will end up in the slimes for future recovery. The catch is the quantity of gold needed to maintain the electrolyte runs in the neighborhood of 60 grams per liter and the tanks I've used start out with a capacity of 75 liters. So at todays prices you will invest $330,000+ USD in solution for the cell. But it gets better, I am a big fan of lot to lot accountability because, let's face it, people steal from their employers if it is easy enough. With the gold cell, you will only know your losses when you clean up the cell by breaking it down, processing your slimes and the solution and comparing the good gold product you produced plus all of the recovery to what you put into the cell. This can happen every 4 to 6 months. This is why I greatly favor lot to lot accountability to operate a refinery.

Aqua regia is scalable for the needs you stated in your post

I'm buying around a kilo of scrap a week, and that number is growing. So I hope that gets me into the commercial level you mention,

For what you requested. and to a lot more than you requested, the path I would choose is aqua regia. If you want to be the next Canadian Mint, listen to your contact. But there is a world of difference between the two.

You should also realize that a well set up lab with hoods as I described is perfect for processing chemical stone removal which is completely out of the realm of the chlorination process. If you do grow to be another Canadian Mint, and I hope you do, the small hoods and modest setup I described will still serve you well for both learning the trade and eventually processing the slimes and residues generated in the gold cell.

You started this thread wanting basic aqua regia training and that is what was proposed. Within a week you are talking like a major refiner. I will caution you that you need to learn to walk before you progress to marathons. The lessons learned when scaling up will repay you tenfold when you have a major refinery.

I wish you well.

 

[4metals]

I just realized that a refinery was built in Canada and never put into production. It is being sold by Gold Machinery in Pawtucket RI. Capacity is 100-150 kilos of gold per day and 250 kilo's of Silver per day. Call and speak to Greg at Gold Machinery 401-724-3200. There are details on their website.