XRF device recommendation ?

[HAuCl4]

A friend and client asked me today about an XRF device. I promised I'd ask around and would recommend some thing to her. She buys gold and silver jewellery.

What do you guys think is a good value device and estimated price?.

 

[jimdoc]

They cost around $36,000.
I would buy one if I had money to burn,
but I don't so I will stick with acid testing.

Jim

 

[jimdoc]

Just google Niton XRF for info on them.

Jim

 

[nickvc]

I posted about xrf guns some time back they were niton guns and if I remember correctly could be bought for around 18000 dollars plus shipping from the UK don't know the spec now but can find out if your friend is interested.

 

[HAuCl4]

Thanks guys. That price is out of her league and mine.

 

[Noxx]

Tell her to buy a BMW instead She'll be much more happy of her purchase.

 

[HAuCl4]

Tell her to buy a BMW instead She'll be much more happy of her purchase.

No kidding. Maybe an idea is to manufacture and sell them XRF guns...

I was expecting a price less than $100.00 hahaha.

 

[Noxx]

X-Rays = Expensive

 

[nevadatime]

I run an XRF for assay purpose. Originally it was bought to replace acid or at least make the process of identification at the counter with the client faster and accurate. It did neither.

#1 you need to tell IT what purity your sample is (sort of defeats the purpose)

#2 it won't penetrate the sample beyond the surface (or maybe a few microns) so gold filled, slver plated... those samples will appear as if they are solid material (terrific for those less experienced or caring buyers)

#3 if you get the PC detector... it won't measure much below 50% purity

#4 if you get Si-PIN detector you will spend $20k+ range but it is much more accurate vs. the PC detector (big bucks)

#5 it works will when YOU know the sample so if you need to get near exact measurement of gu, gd, cu, pt, pd and so on. But unless you assay... why do you need this? (if you are using to buy from the public - this is not necessary)

I sell these machines, by the way, and I talk more of my stores out of them because I refuse to sell them something they don't really need. Instead.. buy a specific gravity scale! We use ours 100x a day and it is super easy and quick for under $1k. Coins, bars, nugget, jewelry... you name it. The on-board computer tells you everything and has little downside (won't work with hollow sample or smaple with stones). I sell these too by-the-way! I'd say get this first and if you think you need assay machine - get the Si-PIN detector and drop $19k on one of our Skyray units. I'd still try and talk you out of it.

 

[jimbalaiya]

Hi NevadaTime,

Thank you for the post. It kind of answered my question from my other posting. As for gold flakes and gold dust, Is the specific gravity scale applicable? Which brand do you recommend and which model do you use if you don't mind me asking.

BTW, I love your quote at the bottom ! :lol:

 

[chawimac]

Hello,

My 2 cents.

I buy scrap. The only way to go with scrap is using JSP acid. No stones, and no cheap knock off acids. Use acid directly on the piece with a paper towel. After a couple hundred pieces you can come within 2 karats of actual value.

If you do go for XRF there is only one option, a Fischer XAN120. Its about $38k depending on the software you get. Get the full software. Then you need to drop $2k on standards. Having an XRF without standards is pointless. Your error might be 2% or more. Fischer is the Ferrari of XRF yet affordable. I have 4 Fischers, 1 chinese, and a useless handheld. I am a small operation but I buy about a ton and a half a year, so for me an XRF serves a purpose.

XRF is not for buying jewelry. Not only is it a waste of money but it is not practical. XRF takes 60 seconds for a decent read so its not practical for any volume. Also, its not portable. If it is, its junk. Most error in XRF comes from the user, not the machine. I have heard XRF is more accurate on higher karats, not true if you know what you are doing and have lots of reference standards.

I use XRF to buy molten stuff. 50 grams plus of sketchy stuff or mined/panned gold I melt, take a pin sample, roll it flat and XRF 3 times on 3 spots for at least 60 seconds. 99.98% i'm on the money.

XRF has its uses and will teach you a lot about what you are buying. It also has its limitations. Get a good machine, the cheap chinese machines will cost you many times over.

PS, I have no interest in JSP or Fischer

 

[Palladium]

I got everything else, but what is JSP acid?

 

[chawimac]

JSP? Really. Sold by "Jewelry Supply Products," its a US standard. I mention it because I, being cheap have bought acid from other companies. They suck.

Acids last maybe a year, so you should always test to make sure they are still good.

 

[goldenchild]

So is icp out?

 

[goldsilverpro]

JSP? Really. Sold by "Jewelry Supply Products," its a US standard. I mention it because I, being cheap have bought acid from other companies. They suck.

Acids last maybe a year, so you should always test to make sure they are still good.

You have no idea what you are talking about and I seem to smell a little spam going on.

Nitric is nitric and hydrochloric is hydrochloric, no matter where you buy it. The only differences are purity and strength and you pay for what you get. For refining, only a fool would pay for the highest quality. Single acids, like nitric or hydrochloric, essentially last forever at full strength, if they are kept sealed in the proper container in a cool spot. That BS about JSP being a US standard is just that, BS. With some exceptions, the least knowledgeable people concerning chemicals are those in the jewelry industry, in my experience. They are jewelers, not chemists. Whoever JSP is, they certainly don't manufacture these acids. They buy them from a lab supply or chemical company (the same exact places where we buy most of them) and resell them.

 

[Genesis]

I run an XRF for assay purpose. Originally it was bought to replace acid or at least make the process of identification at the counter with the client faster and accurate. It did neither.

#1 you need to tell IT what purity your sample is (sort of defeats the purpose)

#2 it won't penetrate the sample beyond the surface (or maybe a few microns) so gold filled, slver plated... those samples will appear as if they are solid material (terrific for those less experienced or caring buyers)

#3 if you get the PC detector... it won't measure much below 50% purity

#4 if you get Si-PIN detector you will spend $20k+ range but it is much more accurate vs. the PC detector (big bucks)

#5 it works will when YOU know the sample so if you need to get near exact measurement of gu, gd, cu, pt, pd and so on. But unless you assay... why do you need this? (if you are using to buy from the public - this is not necessary)

I sell these machines, by the way, and I talk more of my stores out of them because I refuse to sell them something they don't really need. Instead.. buy a specific gravity scale! We use ours 100x a day and it is super easy and quick for under $1k. Coins, bars, nugget, jewelry... you name it. The on-board computer tells you everything and has little downside (won't work with hollow sample or smaple with stones). I sell these too by-the-way! I'd say get this first and if you think you need assay machine - get the Si-PIN detector and drop $19k on one of our Skyray units. I'd still try and talk you out of it.

Very good pointers you posted here Nevada Time. All 5 tips are correct. The manufactor has to calibrate the gun to your specific needs and that is not applicatable to different types of ore bodies.
i too was looking at the XRF for prospecting before I knew anything about them. A sales rep called me and we talked about the applications. To my suprise the rep talked me out of it and thankful for that.
I would be interested in your specific gravity scale. Are you in the Reno area?

 

[jessica]

Our company is specialized in the manufacturing and exporting XRF gold analyzer for decades. So far we have two models, XRA 1000 and high-end XRA 3200 gold analyzer. The testing results of our machine can compare with those famous brands, like Niton and Fischer, but with much cheaper price and the results can be as accurate and perfect as the Fire Assay method. And our gold analyzer is only designed for jewelers who buy or sell gold. So I think our gold analyzer can meet the requirement of your client to the utmost.

 

[QuickshotXRF]

Quickshot XRF offers both handheld and desktop analyzers with a large focus on identification of gold and additional precious metals.

Regarding NevadaTimes points -
1. The software that we offer does not require a user know anything about the sample; our karat matching function will determine that and results will show soon after.

2. Yes, this is a drawback from XRF and I am surprised at the number of sales organizations that claim more...it's not right. Again, our karat matching function can help but the only way to be 100% is to scratch/cut and test.

3. The PC detector (proportional counter) should really only be used for coating thickness measurements but it is a lower cost option and many companies market it as a great solution for gold buyers - but its not. It is only good for yellow gold with four constituents.

4. Very true. Much better return on investment.

5. Refer to #1 above.

XRF is not for every gold buyer but when the quantity purchased is enough or uneducated employees are buying, it helps and will return the value.

 

[Dan Dement]

Guys,

I am a newbie of this forum but am on my second SG scale and third XRF machine. I am platinum & palladium jewelry manufacture who buys well over a million a year from the Public. We melt almost every purchase and pay off the XRF analysis. I think I have tried almost every method in determining the gold finess in house with the exception of fire assay. One of the real interesting facts is the least gold purity is in the middle of a sawn in half ingot. Pin samples, drilling with drill, drilling with end mill, cuttings from band saw, making triangle bars, making thick bars, specific gravity testing are a few of the different methods all double checked with the latest XRF machine that I wanted to pay for which is $38,000. My payouts with my refiner is in agreement. The ability to have experimenting with all the different methods and get accurate readings made me understand the difficulties and variances that refiners face. For me, the understanding that the center of the bar is about 2% less than the exterior is very eye opening!

The ability to accurately determine the purity of given amount of gold is a mathimatic average at best. The truth is no amount of stirring can overcome the stratification process which makes the inside less pure than the outside. The longer the cooling process takes place in the ingot mold, the more the difference. Immediate quenching helps the difference smaller. We try to quench the 500 gram plus bar in pickle in an old large crockpot. A $200 craftsman bandsaw with a good metal blade and a great XRF will sure educate you more than complaining how your Refiner is ripping you off!

Dan

 

[Noxx]

Why have you never tried fire assays ? They are extremely accurate when performed correctly and can be done all year long with less than $10k of equipment.

I am platinum & palladium jewelry manufacture who buys well over a million a year from the Public.

It is in my opinion that you wasted a lot of money in various testing equipment but for what purpose ? I think it's not worth it considering the relatively low volume you're handling (approx. 11ozT / week).

Your best bet would be to melt, drill or pin sample your bars and send your samples to assay labs. You can get assays for $40 or less these days...