XRF device recommendation ?

[Dan Dement]

Nick,

Thanks for the reply. Again, being a Newbie here, you really don't know who you are talking to and their point of view. Again, I am search of truth, science, and facts to learn. Lots depend on agenda and what end of the gold tunnel you are on. Me, I am at the beginning of the tunnel and do not make my living off of buying gold. I want to tell the truth in both buying & selling. I have a 2-5 minute window to learn the facts before I write a check! Consumers or sellers of gold deserve not to be ripped off and gold buyers have to make a profit as well as refiners! Crazy week with gold taking a "correction" of almost $100 in a day. As a side note, I have sold thee 3 Carat diamonds this week. Sure reminds me of the 80's for us Geezer 's Club guys.

I would be very interested to do a "XRF" comparison. It's like trying to have the fastest computer today! You are never going to win! With me at least, if your selling something, say so! I am a buyer! If it's better for my needs, I will buy it but I want to be sure it is what you say it is. No BS, no smoke & mirrors!

I am hammered in my real business but going back to my real purpose, the truth from my viewpoint! I want to know why the inside of my 300 gram bars is less pure than the outside! If that is the way it is, that's fine. I want to be treated fairly to both the people ibuy from and the people I sell too. I appreciate the knowledge and experience of the admin's, who moderate and share there experience and there point of view. It takes lots of 300 gram bars to make the Hugh bars that the refiners deal with but I count the thousands not the millions. I need to accurate!

Thanks for the reply,

Dan

 

[Dan Dement]

Nick,

Everyone including me is looking for the Easy Button! in my two year experience in buying gold, every method can be fooled. I have seen the stainless, heavy rhodium plated heavy chain that would fool earlier less expensive machine. I have purchased a small football sized 20 + plus karat hollow elephant covered with emerald , rubies, and sapphires that I would have bet was lead filled but wasn't. Thing was so large, it would not fit into my XRF or SG machine. I have yet to see a solid items that will fool the SG & XRF. I think I could come up with this unusual combination but when you throw melting as a third component, it's fairly fool proof. I have heard of tungsten filled gold coins but have not never seen one. I would be interested in purchasing one to have for testing purposes if anybody has one!

By the way, the Gold Elephant was not lead filled but was a nine metal gold over 20K gold probally from the 1890's. Hate to have melted it and a second one from the same guy about a year later but not something I want to guess about. I am purchasing a larger bandsaw to continue my experiments. I have had difficulties with the blades and have had some custom made. I am also improving my gold dust recovery system as in theory, this is a true cross section average. What ever method used meaning fire assay or XRF is only as accurate as the sample anaylzed and I am still finding the dead center to be less pure. I am going to see if the larger the amount has an effect on the results.

Onward thru the Fog in search of my idea of the truth!

Dan

 

[nickvc]

Dan just a silly thought reference your search for an answer as to why the bars assay seems to vary from the outer surface to the centre. After you cut your bar in half buff the surface and then give it a light polish this should remove any drag through of metals from the cutting. I'm not sure if it will have any effect but it might be worth a try to remove one possible cause from the list, it sure is a mystery to me why your getting those results, if GSP, 4metals or any other of the leading lights of the forum can't give an answer I'm sure I can't, keep us informed of your progress.

 

[Dan Dement]

Nick,

I appreciate the wise consul & time of the more learned and administrators. I had a nice long talk with one today and I as I thought, the solidification and straification are the culprits. It seems that this has been a little inside knowledge not shared by many which I stumbled across. Seems that the pin sample method can vary also which has been my findings also. I will just continue my little experimentsto better understand the ins & outs of the boom as long as it continues.

Dan

 

[GoldBiter]

Would you guys be up to a heads up comparison?

Dan,

I'm sure one of our sales guys would be happy to give you an onsite demo so you can make a comparison. We also provide all sorts of radiation safety training to give you satisfaction that the instruments are safe to use. So we don't clog this forum, I will send you a private email and I'll assist you in setting something up. You are of course welcome to post the results of your tests here if others are interested.

 

[Dan Dement]

Jeff,

Just emailed you all the information and look forward to hearing from your guy to set up a demo! Don't make a special trip as I am three weeks in my new machine and IRS is going to nail me this year. I would be more than happy to consider purchasing a hand held if it is safe & accurate!

Thanks for the reply and look forward to a heads up. I promise to give it a honest comparison.

Dan

 

[goldsilverpro]

Am I misinterpreting this or is this whole thing is going to end up as a big sales pitch to sell XRF equipment? If so, Dan, you are so gone.

 

[Dan Dement]

My relationship with Quickshot is simple: They sell me equipment and offer technical help & I buy it. Would I buy another machine to help in my gold buying yes but I have made it clear, I just bought my third machine and until after Tax time, I ain't buying nothing. My real business is very good which being a custom jeweler and I have sold every big diamond I have. I am looking to buy stones over 3.00 carats. If you recall, I have never tried to hide who or what I am. In this forum, there no profiles to see who people really are and what their real expertise and training is based on.

I have looked at handheld machines over three ago. I have expressed my concerns over the safety issues of handhelds and I already have had an extended audit by OSHA. If anything, GB is the person was hiding his cards and all mine are on the table. So, if you want to kick me out, investigate me, and IF anything I have said is not 100% please kick my behind out of here! I would prefer to give the guy a deposit, have him run a credit report on me, check out my references and send me the machine for a week or so and let me test drive the thing.

I appreciate the time and expertise of the guru's and admin's here bit we are at different ends of the tunnel. From my experiments, I found out that no matter how well gold is mixed.. it's going to straitify or Solidificate and form different purifies in a solid bar. When you run pin samples, you can have 1 to 1 1/2 percent differences from one end to another. If you are running samples no matter which method, is this really not an important fact? I had a very nice conversation the other day with a Guru and he told me that that is very near the simple truth. Health issues are certainly another factor here with the handhelds. I am going to get several radiation badges like they have the hospitals and try to borrow a radiation meter, to truly test the safety levels of these guns. Several companies sell XRF machines and most sell tabletop and handhelds, me I like to be sure of things and not take salesmen's word for things. This is not my first rodeo!

A couple of questions: In the US, a couple of people who do Fire Assays? With FA's being your standard, Who can you buy 7-8 metal 14kt -18kt standards?

Dan

 

[GoldBiter]

Am I misinterpreting this or is this whole thing is going to end up as a big sales pitch to sell XRF equipment? If so, Dan, you are so gone.

GSP;

I don't see any sales pitch whatsoever, so I think your comment is adversarial and inappropriate. There are many other ways you could state your concern in this case other than threatening someone that has a lot to add to this forum. Like any forum, members here should be free to express opinions on equipment while refraining from sales pitches so it doesn't turn into a marketplace. I work in the field of XRF (which I openly admitted), and Dan in the field of precious metals. We had a good debate on the merits of different types of equipment and took it off-line so we could talk more freely and openly so as not to disturb the forum. I think the debate provided some useful information for those that choose to follow this thread.

My question to you is how you view your signature as not being a sales pitch? ...

GoldSilverPro's Book For Sale

I have no problem with anyone trying to make a buck in this world, but maybe you should practice what you preach.

 

[Lou]

Dan's the real deal. I think GSP thought the back and forth was a convoluted sales pitch and that you two were on the same "team" with the purpose of selling XRF equipment. I don't think that's the case.

 

[goldsilverpro]

Dan,

I reread everything and I did misinterpret the situation. Please accept my apology. And, if Lou says you're the real deal, you're the real deal. I am interested in your research and think it will be valuable. I am glad you're on the forum. You were right, the other guy was the fox-in-the-henhouse.

Am I misinterpreting this or is this whole thing is going to end up as a big sales pitch to sell XRF equipment? If so, Dan, you are so gone.

GSP;

I don't see any sales pitch whatsoever, so I think your comment is adversarial and inappropriate. There are many other ways you could state your concern in this case other than threatening someone that has a lot to add to this forum. Like any forum, members here should be free to express opinions on equipment while refraining from sales pitches so it doesn't turn into a marketplace. I work in the field of XRF (which I openly admitted), and Dan in the field of precious metals. We had a good debate on the merits of different types of equipment and took it off-line so we could talk more freely and openly so as not to disturb the forum. I think the debate provided some useful information for those that choose to follow this thread.

My question to you is how you view your signature as not being a sales pitch? ...

GoldSilverPro's Book For Sale

I have no problem with anyone trying to make a buck in this world, but maybe you should practice what you preach.

Although they aren't set in stone, there are some general rules we moderators tend to follow concerning advertising.

(1) Anyone pushing a commercial product or service in the text of a post can only do it in the Refiners, Buyers, Assayers, etc. Category. These products or services usually must have something to do with PMs.
(2) The signature is different. I allow advertising links in them if, and only if, they are PM related or peripheral things like base metals. If you look around, you'll see quite a few of these. When people put links for something totally unrelated, like hair-care products, they and their IP are usually banned immediately.

Please note that, as far as my advertising goes, I have followed these rules to a tee. I can never remember pushing my book in the text of any post unless it was done in the proper category. My ad in my signature is definitely PM related.

After re-reading your 6 posts, I feel you have broken rule (1). Not severely, but you're definitely on the cusp. Consider this a warning.

You should have reread my post before insulting me. I qualified my statement by saying, "Am I misinterpreting this...". I found that I was misinterpreting it and apologized. And, I said that I would ban Dan IF all this were a ploy to sell XRF equipment. It wasn't and I won't.

How dare you lecture me? You're here for one obvious purpose - to promote and sell XRF equipment. The info you're providing is interesting but, considering the source, it is biased and self-serving.

In the 5 years I've been here, I can't remember demanding an apology from anyone but, in this case, I am making an exception. Think about this and PM me with your apology. If I haven't heard from you by Thursday, 3/8/12, 2PM CST, you are gone.

 

[Dan Dement]

GSP,

Thanks for the apology! I accept it and know you were looking out for the best of the Forum. I know I come across aggressive which is code for A**Hole sometimes and really don't mean to be. When I do, it's just the Old Diamond Man coming out in me. I will try to take a fresh outlook on things. I am a serious "gadget freak"and do try to find the latest and greatest equipment if I think it can make me money. I have good relationships with most of the jewelry equipment manufacturers. Not so great in the Science Dept but fairly good at making things work and very good at understanding a dollar. Open exchange of ideas is what makes a Forum a good place to learn. I called out GBiter figuring he had something to do with Equipment. IMHO, I find nothing wrong with it but I think sellers of equipment need to identify themselves as such. Me, I not selling anything and if anything, am a buyer and tester of toys. GB & I have had a couple of emails since and I have told him that I am not an immediate buyer but always happy to look and compare. I am less than a month with my newest XRF and with what happened to gold today, it's going to be interesting. I am not a "Gold Bug" and don't think it is going to 2000 anytime soon. However, I am the worst stock picker in the world and certainly no financial guru but no doomsday advocate either. w
Thanks for your time & effort. I will continue my little experiments and will report for peer review. Truth is, if we all were sitting around drinking an adult beverage, We all could be friends.

Peace,
Dan

 

[GoldBiter]

After re-reading your 6 posts, I feel you have broken rule (1). Not severely, but you're definitely on the cusp. Consider this a warning.

You should have reread my post before insulting me. I qualified my statement by saying, "Am I misinterpreting this...". I found that I was misinterpreting it and apologized. And, I said that I would ban Dan IF all this were a ploy to sell XRF equipment. It wasn't and I won't.

How dare you lecture me? You're here for one obvious purpose - to promote and sell XRF equipment. The info you're providing is interesting but, considering the source, it is biased and self-serving.

In the 5 years I've been here, I can't remember demanding an apology from anyone but, in this case, I am making an exception. Think about this and PM me with your apology. If I haven't heard from you by Thursday, 3/8/12, 2PM CST, you are gone.

GSP,

I don't need to send you a PM to apologize ... I will do it publicly here: I in no way meant to offend, insult or lecture you. If I did so, please accept my apologies. I'm not doing this out of fear of getting booted from this forum since it really wouldn't bother me; I do it out of understanding how things can be misunderstood and that life is too short to have petty arguments. I was simply coming to the defense of Dan, who I felt had a great deal of experience as was not breaking any rules. I saw a double standard, but I understand now that signatures are not covered under the general rules of engagement. I guess I could change my signature, but don't want to be blatant about my allegiances and come across as a salesman.

Obviously I do promote XRF, but don't deserve to be treated like a 2nd class citizen or spoken down to due to this fact. I understand you've been in this industry a long time, and I've been in the field of XRF quite a while as well, with precious metals being a primary interest of mine for quite some time. I've traveled all over the world visiting refineries, goldsmiths, jewelers, cash-for-gold companies, pawnbrokers, etc. and while I feel I have much to learn from forums such as these, I also feel I have much to contribute. I promote the virtues of XRF, and you want to sell your book ... if questions are directed at either of those subjects, should we not be allowed to reply? I try very hard not to be biased, and if I come across as so, call me out on it ... but please do not threaten me as I generally don't react well. This could be a considered a personality flaw by many, but I'm sure you and I are similar in this way. Anyway, I hope we can start fresh and have a meaningful discussion moving forward with no hard feelings.

Trust me on this, I'm not here to sell XRF equipment since I reap no financial gain as a result. I will however be clear and straightforward on the merits of XRF as well as its drawbacks which I'm also happy to discuss. I would do a disservice to the industry if I wasn't honest since it all comes out in the wash ... and I'm in it for the long haul.

In closing, If you still feel the need to dismiss me after reading this post, that's your prerogative, but I would like to think you feel otherwise.

 

[Dan Dement]

GB,

First, Thanks for coming to my defense and some find we are on opposite sides of a fence and Some thing we are in allegiance. Truth is, it's all a misunderstanding and we should just move on. It's not my call. It's sort of us being car nuts, and your Porsche and I like Corvette's. GSP is the Big Diesel Pickup guys and we all like horsepower!

Mostly, this all my fault as I do come on strong which I apologize for! From what I understand, GSP is the "Dover Pro" here and gives lots of his time to make sure we all play fair. For me, i have only one questions? Will you sign your book for me as I KNOW I need to buy it & study it!! Where do I send the check?

Peace Guys,

Dan

 

[Dan Dement]

GSP,

Read your book thread and understand not really a book in paper form. Will send a check out tomorrow No signature required but on my check.

dan

 

[paully2013]

thought I add this comment this is my very first post

XRF Spectrometer from $10-15K only used for standards such as 10ct, 12ct, sterling silver etc.... so in other words if you have gold plated pins and melt that into a bar and when you do the test it will show you gold and other metals detected

The XRF gun if your using in jewellery and bars I don't recommend as it only scans the surface in microns so if you have a 24ct gold plated bar with copper base it would just read the surface saying its a solid 24ct gold bar but you should know better due to feeing the weight of the bar to realise its not solid gold .... unless they are using tungsten In the plated bars, where as the first system would say there is a large % of tungsten

Now I have to think of an interesting and witty comment to end this post
Ummm you got me on the spot *panics* !!!

my cats breath smells like cat food

 

[Dan Dement]

Paully,

Interesting to see this old discussion. Your points are partially correct but here's two later results. My jewelry business is good. Still buying gold as it comes in the door. I really do not advertise but have used the "fair & honest" concept in all my business dealings. I use both SG scales and a year old XRF from Quickshot. I find the desktop units much more reliable than the guns. In my METHOD of cash outs, I use both SG & 7 XRF readings and average the XRF readings. With hundreds of cash outs under my belt, I stay within a $25. window on amounts over $10,000. I have helped and taught anyone who wants to come watch and learn for free. I do Induction Melt all my mini wedge ingots which is an important point in my results. Quickshot still helps me keep up with new metals and alloys as they come up. I am not selling anything and don't want anything from anybody. I get no kickbacks from anybody but give my moral support to people I do business with. I am sure they are better ways to do things and I am always open to learning something new.

Dan

 

[goldsilverpro]

In reading this old thread, I am embarrassed. I should have been the one to apologize to Dan. Sometimes I can really be a jerk. Sorry, Dan.

 

[Dan Dement]

Chris,

Nothing to apologize for! You sir, are one of the Protectors of GRF! You keep the BS out of here which I greatly appreciate. You share your knowledge and expertise to the undeserving guys like me. My association with GRF has made me wiser in area's that are very difficult to learn. The journey has taken me down some very interesting different paths which have created many new avenues for me both financially and intellectually. So, just keep doing what your doing for everybody's sake! An honest difference of opinion and discussion is healthy for all!

Dan