XRF device recommendation ?

[Dan Dement]

Noxx,

According to your profile you are 22 years old and I appauld your eagerness. I am at a different point I'm my life at 62 and certainly have a little experience in my favor. I have a successful Jewelry business and a number of employees as well as several family members who join me in a family business. We pay a very straight foreword 82to85% of spot on gold and a little less on silver. We have several induction melters that can quickly melt gold and a separate machine for PD & Pt. My latest XRF can give me an accurate reading in 20 seconds and I can do separations in 10 seconds. We make a quick guessament and make the customer an offer or we give them the option to melt the gold and pay them an exact payment like a refiner. When my local refiner is paying me the amount I know to be accurate. How, I have over 30 master metals that I have double and triple checked. I have the same setup that the refiners use except slightly smaller. I believe in turning the money. We cash out at about 500-600 grams several times a week or sometimes everyday.

Gold buying does not figure into my business plan in anyway. We reply on a small amount of Craig's List ads and word of mouth for my advertising. I can pay more because I do not guess. I also have two Alpha Mirage SG scales that are very close to my XRF machine to double check my reports. For me, with latest setup and the fact that I have my process down, we get an accurate return on my metal. I am no scientist just an old guy mostly self taught from trail & error but have a few friends who help me. Of course these friends own a rare earth refiner who has 6 PHD's and one who worked for One the Biggest Pt Refiners in the world. Happens to have a mega buck Mass Spectrometers that goes to parts per million! So, I get my processes reviewed by true Pro's who keep me on track. Funny thing about some of us Old Guys, we count pretty good and get by the help of some friends. By the way, my new machine is the Quickshot 295 x which is first one they have delivered. I don't even know if they have it on their Website yet. Their President came down and we really got it dialed in and it is agreeing with the $100,000 XRF that my refiner uses. In the four cash outs I have gotten, we were dead on.

I appreciate your opinion that I have wasted my money. I could say sometime tasteless but I will not. I am happy to encourage young people to grow and learn. If I used your figure of 11oz a week is about $250,000 profit a year on about $10,000 cash capital and $50,000 in expenses which of course are a 100% write-off. I will settle for that on top of my other income from my store, real estate, and other investments. We don't want to go into the diamonds and other things that I buy off the street. All I can say is that I appreciate the fact you think I waste my Money but again, it is my money which I have earned and paid taxes on.

Regards,

Dan

 

[Noxx]

I didn't mean to sound harsh or anything... I should have explained myself more.

I don't want to discourage you at all or anything, welcome on this forum 8)

I am surely young and surely still have a lot to learn!

 

[Dan Dement]

Noxx,

I welcome your zeal, input, and passion. Your in Canada and I am in Texas. I have used Gold Buying as a method to promote honest business methods. Funny thing: Every Gold buyer says they pay the most! Nobody promotes the science side of the business and fair and honest transactions in our area but us. We don't advertise much and rely on the Old Word Of Mouth process. Lots of our customers remake their jewelry into custom designs. We manufacture around 8 bigger rings a week mostly in Palladium. We sell lots of bigger fine cut GIA stones. Customers come in, we give them a guesstament on their metal and tell them we will remove the stones, melt all the metal, run two different analysis by XRF & S.G. Which usually is more than our guess. If they agree we buy the metal at 82 --85% and write them a check on a bank 50 yards away. We sell our metal when we have $10-12000. To a local refiner at 98%. We have refined our process were we agree with Our local refiner. We have good equipment and process. This whole process did not happen by accident and I am on my third XRF in 18 months. My new Quickshot 295x is their latest and greatest. I can set the readings for 10 seconds and do separations with great accuracy. My 20 second readings are dead on to my refiners $100,000 tri reading machine which takes three minutes.

I have just put together a 12 unit purchase of the latest and greatest Alpha Mirage SG machine in a group purchase. Just have gotten through Beta Testing an Induction Wand Melter that can melt several kilo's a couple of minutes from a cold strait. When warm, the time is much less. You can turn the wand 180 degrees for full recovery of the melted gold. Pour in an ingot mold and immediately drop into a hot pickle crockpot to remove scale. Just like the refiners but much quicker within full view of he customer. Not the usual method but works for us.

Old guy that is still learning. I greatly appreciate this new forum and hope to try to contribute in a positive way. Lots for me to learn but always happy to share!

Dan

 

[Westerngs]

Noxx,

The reason most people prefer XRF over fire assay is the speed. With XRF, you can pay on the metal within minutes, and the training and knowledge is probably less than you need for fire assay. Not to mention XRF does not need acids (except for the scratch/acid tests to check for plated items).

A fire assay, on the other hand, can be done in as little as 2-4 hours, but that still does not compare to minutes with XRF.

If you don't do the fire assay yourself and send it out, you are looking at days.

I will always prefer fire assay, but there is something to be said for XRF done by good, well calibrated equipment by someone that knows what they are doing.

 

[Dan Dement]

I don't think a Fire Assay is going to tell every metal you are dealing with either. When you manufacture, everything else is Very Important. 20 seconds is very hard to beat! I have seen 9 metals in some golds. I am not on my third XRF in less than two years because I don't like them

Dan

 

[GoldBiter]

XRF is not a technology where you can compare "apples to apples" very easily. There are major differences in how XRF is employed (hardware - including detectors and x-ray sources, software and calibration technology), differences in the companies that manufactures them, and of course the type of support and maintenance required for their continued use.

Quickshot is a US label/distributor for a Chinese company called Skyray, who build decent systems and have done well in the market due to their comparatively low cost. Fischer, based in Germany, is a very well known quality manufacturer of mid-to-high end equipment that has been supporting the precious metal industry for many years. Thermo Fisher Scientific makes high-end laboratory XRF equipment, with XRF being only one of many technologies they employ. These companies as well as many, many others often employ a type of calibration that require standards to build known spectral "signatures" to function correctly. It can be a very time consuming and costly process, but when done and maintained properly, can provide very good results.

Niton is actually a product name for portable XRF systems manufactured by Thermo Fisher Scientific. Niton pioneered taking XRF to the average lay-person by making it simple to use while offering excellent accuracy and speed. The calibration technology is called fundamental parameters (or FP), which is a standard-less calibration meaning that there is no need for the user to build their own calibrations based on known standards. It simply works right out of the box with accuracy rivaling that of fire assay. There are a few other companies outside of the Niton products that offer systems with this type of calibration.

I recommend that anyone considering XRF do their homework and not rely solely on blog posts to make their decision since it entirely depends on what you are trying to achieve. For instance do you have the time and resources available to build your own calibrations, or do you want a standardless calibration that provides immediate results? Most companies will provide on-site demonstrations of their equipment to show how they would work in YOUR business. Test as many as you can, similar as you would test drive a car before making a purchase. Only then can you make an informed decision on the proper investment. What I can say is that XRF is fast replacing the acid test as the method of choice since the errors involved acid tests can be a big liability for anyone doing any significant amount of business in the world of precious metals.

Regardless of the direction you take, I've learned that you cannot remove the human element from the process - you must still use your head and experience in making a proper decision since there are always sophisticated thieves looking to take your hard-earned money!

 

[Dan Dement]

Gold biter,

I am on my second Alfa Mirage SG machine and my third XRF from Quickshot. I keep upgrading and selling the older machines to friends, the Alfa Mirage scale is a Brand new model which I put in a order for 12 units. My AM is accurate on melted bars to about .2 tenth's meaning 56.5 could run 56.3 to 56.7%. the newest XRF is very accurate and I get matching and accurate readings in 20 seconds. By accurate, I mean I average 4 readings from the corners on top and bottom and average. If the readings are close, I cut the bar in half and check the center. I then average the three and I am usually dead on what I am paid by NTR. This payout is within .2 from the SG. I cash out a couple of times a week and for the last 21/2weeks, I am running with $20 on $10,000 pls payouts.

Funny thing, least purity is dead center of the well mixed, quick quenched in pickle bars. If you got the toys, check it for yourself.

Dan

 

[HAuCl4]

It simply works right out of the box with accuracy rivaling that of fire assay.

No. It doesn't even rival the accuracy of a 30 minute torch assay.

 

[HAuCl4]

Just have gotten through Beta Testing an Induction Wand Melter that can melt several kilo's a couple of minutes from a cold strait. When warm, the time is much less.
Dan

I'd love to see a picture or video of this melter in action.

 

[GoldBiter]

It simply works right out of the box with accuracy rivaling that of fire assay.

No. It doesn't even rival the accuracy of a 30 minute torch assay.

Have you done comparative testing? I agree that when fire assay is performed by a skilled person, the results are very repeatable. However, I have seen more often that not if you send samples out to different assayers from the same bar, you will get different results. If great care is not taken in the process, you will get errors. I'm not saying that XRF can replace fire assay, nor do I recommend it, but the results track very well. If you need a fast non-destructive analysis, XRF cannot be beat in the hands of a moderately skilled user.

 

[HAuCl4]

It simply works right out of the box with accuracy rivaling that of fire assay.

No. It doesn't even rival the accuracy of a 30 minute torch assay.

Have you done comparative testing? I agree that when fire assay is performed by a skilled person, the results are very repeatable. However, I have seen more often that not if you send samples out to different assayers from the same bar, you will get different results. If great care is not taken in the process, you will get errors. I'm not saying that XRF can replace fire assay, nor do I recommend it, but the results track very well. If you need a fast non-destructive analysis, XRF cannot be beat in the hands of a moderately skilled user.

Of course I have done testing. XRF is 2 orders of magnitude more inaccurate than a standard fire assay. I'm too old to debate facts. Believe what you will.

 

[goldsilverpro]

Dan,

No offense, but I think you are a gadget junkie.

 

[Dan Dement]

GSP,

No offense taken! I know I am a gadget Junkie!

However, a couple of facts to go along with your 100% correct observation:
1. I am a finacially successful gadget junkie who takes technology and makes money with it and the Government in their wisdom, allows me to write off my gadgets from my profits.
2. I sometimes take conventional wisdom and prove it wrong! IE: if you ain't the Lead Dog the view never changes,
3. I am a Geezer but appreciate the technology. I am not arguing that a fire assay is the most accurate. I find it very funny that I take a 300 gram bar, cut in half, run state of the art tests on it and nobody believes the strange results.
4. I step on people's toes but try to always tell the truth.
5. Life is still fun for me and I enjoy finding new ways of making money.

Dan

 

[goldsilverpro]

Lots of geezers on the forum. I know I sure am one.

With fire assay, I can hold the final gold in my hand. I can visually see it and I can plop it on the scale. If the samples are right, the answer will never be less than what it weighs. I can live with that. With XRF, I just get a number that I am never 100% sure of. Too iffy for me. I'll never change. If I have a choice between speed and accuracy, I'll take accuracy every time.

 

[Dan Dement]

GSP,

I just wish wisdom came with age! I believe that are are in the same tunnel but different ends. I buy gold 4-5 times everyday along with three other guys. It's like arguing which more accurate? An MRI, Catscan, or an autopsy? Just depends if your patient or the doctor? From your viewpoint, you are 100% correct. Big bars, well mixed, pull them pin samples, and fire assay it. If your the guy writing the check, you want it to be right or you are broke!

Me, I got about two minutes to make an informed decision! I am the guy trying to clean the septic tank in a white suit. Everybody says they pay more! Every refiner pays 98% or more! Now, maybe I am just stupid but I can't run my business on that type of margin. Me, I just try to figure out the truth. The truth for me, is the facts I can produce with my two old eyes and my two old hands. I don't walk into the Bank and throw a wad of money and say put it into my account. In my situation, I have to come up with a quick way to come up with the money amount. I just paid almost $20,000 to cut my time from 1:20 to 20sec. And it really was worth it. I don't like the handheld machines, anybody ever heard of radiation called Xrays? At the hospital, you wear a lead apron! At least mine is enclosed in a box! My guys would drop the handheld in two weeks. This ain't no $300 iPhone! I need to pick out he trace elements, is a handheld going to pick out a 9 element gold?

Well, the same way the consumers don't trust the gold buyers, the Gold Buyers don't trust the Refiners. Sure to heck puzzles me when knowledgable honorable experts don't come up with the same answers I do! Yes, it probably me but I must say, I believe I am correct than 99.9 % of the other guys or I would not be getting the checks that I receive.

Not stopping my experiments and not backing off. Just accumulating and busy as heck in my real business! Crazy times and sure reminds me of the 80' except instead of 18% interest we have 0.8 interest. I guess we all are in favor of the Gold Standard coming back. I bought gas for my own car for $.18 per gallon. The world is crazy and lots of people are going to get screwed.

A Geezer complaining!

Dan

 

[GoldBiter]

Handhelds work great, they are safe, and have been proven safe for decades. You can't compare medical xrays to handheld XRF; It's like comparing 5" deck guns on a Navy destroyer to to a Nerf ball gun, so don't let the benchtop guys scare you otherwise. You can get more radiation exposure getting on an airplane or living in Denver CO than you would from consistent, heavy use of one of these instruments. I would bet anything that there are way more injuries coming from the use of acid or fire assay ... or even a screwdriver for that matter.

And yes, the good handheld systems can do many more than 9 elements simultaneously.

As with anything, purchasing a tool depends on how you intend to use it. Handheld XRF isn't for everyone, but there are few arguments against them that hold any water when you truly understand their capabilities and where they are applied successfully. Just ask the hundreds of people/companies that use these instruments every day who will cut your arm off if you ever try to take it away from them.

 

[Dan Dement]

Gold biter,

I am a newbie here and don't have dog in the fight but from the way you talk, perhaps do you sell handhelds?

Dan

 

[GoldBiter]

I am a newbie here and don't have dog in the fight but from the way you talk, perhaps do you sell handhelds?

I don't sell handhelds, but I do work for a company that manufacturers all types of analytical laboratory equipment including both benchtop and portable XRF. All instruments have their place depending on what you want to achieve, and what your skill level is. I'm a huge XRF fan and will argue its merits until I'm blue in the face. As far as benchtop vs handheld, make the choice depending on what works for you in your business. Just don't believe everything you hear and make a sound judgement based on facts - not stories or what other companies may tell you based on their biased opinions to try and sell their particular piece of equipment. For me, safety is a huge issue and when I hear rumor-mongering being done by some companies for their own benefit, it does everyone a disservice.

 

[Dan Dement]

Goldbiter,

Again, I am a newbie here and LOTS of information is not shown as in other forums. So, if I understand things is that you WORK for a manufacturer that makes XRF along with other things but DON't actually sell them. So all the cards are on the table, I buy lots of equipment, use lots of equipment, make friends with lots of equipment manufacturers, and even Test some of the new toys, but do NOT own, make money, or have any financial interest oher than trying to use try products to make me money! I do have a network of other guys on other forums that I share my findings with. If you have access to the magazine, Jewelers Circular Keystone, there was an article that quoted me on several of related toys. Nothing hidden, no commissions, no smoke & mirrors here!

I like XRF's also or I would not be on my third one. I would be interessted in buying a Handheld if it's near the accuracy and speed of my current machine. We get busy and while some will say I am a mean SOB, I am not a cheap SOB! One of my son in law's is a Physician, and he has concerns of the handheld radiation risks. Sometimes my guys are a little stupid and do things they really should not be doing. Yes, lots of hazards in the jewelry business. . Guys with guns, people trying to rip you off, acids, gases, Bankers, IRS, and lots of other unnice people! So, how much Radiation does your gun emit and how long is the exposure to get a reading! Has there been studies done on this hazard. It may be low but cyandide in low doses can kill you too. I am concerned about extended doses as I know my stationary machine has to have the lid closed before it will operate.

How about dropping? Any warrenty? Would you guys be up to a heads up comparison ? You said that you had a handheld that would do 9 metals. How much is it? How long do you have to hold steady to get an accurate reading. If you saw my first tests, could I get similar readings on a smaller 300 gram piece. I am always interested in a new toy but it's got to deliver!!

Thanks,
Dan

 

[nickvc]

Dan I can tell you from the experience of those that have hand held Nitons that if you drop them it's an expensive accident and I'd be fairly certain that warranties won't cover dropping or any other misuse of them. It can be a great advantage to be able to show the results to customers and I'm sure if I was buying gold in quantity from either trade or public I'd have purchased one years ago but I'd still want fire assays not xrf readings to buy bars....unless the machine was set to read low :roll: