Ethics/Morality of misrepresenting eBay auctions

I was reading this thread:

http://goldrefiningforum.com/phpBB3/viewtopic.php?f=67&t=15083

I would like to draw this discussion out into a new thread that is not specifically talking about any individual person. Strictly the subject matter.

These are my thoughts on the subject. These are based on the gold drops that are seen on eBay now that consist of maybe 1% total gold.

Regardless if you are "following the rules" posting auctions that misrepresent the item in any fashion is wrong.

If someone posts a bar of metal that might possibly be 1% gold, then they post a buy it now price for a lot more than the worth of that 1% of gold, I think it is fairly clear that the person intends to mislead whoever it is they are trying to sell to.

If someone posts titles like "gold drop" yet it's only 1% gold I think that's very misleading as well. Maybe it should be called a copper drop with gold?

Matter of fact, so far as I am concerned, if someone posts a gold drop that is 1% gold, regardless if they are following eBay rules or not, regardless if the person is only posting things that are true, it still does not make the post right. It is still morally wrong.

Scott

Do unto others as you would have others do unto you.

What goes around comes around.

Careful what you swing out there, it might just comeback and slap you up side of the head.

I am not commenting on the other thread here, I am not sure what the details are, but did notice it has caused a stir.

Part of the complication is the Internet itself, as a seller you must become a dual agent. You are the buyers only source of information, you do the inspection and report what you see. What you say and how you say it maters. In a live auction you throw the item on a hay wagon or table and the buyer does their own inspection. Internet auctions bring an additional responsibility you don't have in direct live sales.

Some don't sort this distinction out very well.

pls use this add on ebay to explain clearly what wrong with ebay (im pretty sure the owner wont care...)

edit i have removed my ebay link because i realise that im in fact not doing myself a favor showing to everybody that...

but the things is i was trying to show a good exemple of what to me is acceptable. my nugget a worth about 20 /30$ of gold (full plated pins)my starting bid is at 20$ ... i even tell poeple that there is not much gold in them. someone who buy them will be ok. after that(and i hope that its gonna hapen)if someone dont know what he buy and bid like creazy after i warn them about the content.... i will just be glad for me

it just like when you go at a yard sale and buy a full box of gold plated item for 50$ when it is just cheap china plating worth 3$ of gold....

I didn't see any issue in this case except for the recommendation this was suitable for a child. This item could be a choking hazard for small children or could contain lead or other toxins.

your right on that i will do something about it...

SBrown said:

I was reading this thread:

http://goldrefiningforum.com/phpBB3/viewtopic.php?f=67&t=15083

I would like to draw this discussion out into a new thread that is not specifically talking about any individual person. Strictly the subject matter.

These are my thoughts on the subject. These are based on the gold drops that are seen on eBay now that consist of maybe 1% total gold.

Regardless if you are "following the rules" posting auctions that misrepresent the item in any fashion is wrong.

If someone posts a bar of metal that might possibly be 1% gold, then they post a buy it now price for a lot more than the worth of that 1% of gold, I think it is fairly clear that the person intends to mislead whoever it is they are trying to sell to.

If someone posts titles like "gold drop" yet it's only 1% gold I think that's very misleading as well. Maybe it should be called a copper drop with gold?

Matter of fact, so far as I am concerned, if someone posts a gold drop that is 1% gold, regardless if they are following eBay rules or not, regardless if the person is only posting things that are true, it still does not make the post right. It is still morally wrong.

Scott

Click to expand...

Outright I am fearful to debate you Scott, you are quite wise with your words, but I feel you are quite wrong (in my opinion, which is subjective to personal opinion). What you are saying is no different then saying a jeweler is wrong to sell his item because he is selling it far over the gold value. Let's say a ring that has 4g of gold, the jeweler sells for $1200, but there is only $200 worth of gold and maybe $150 worth of diamonds, for a total of $350. Then the jeweler adds a 50% markup for his labor, that still set the value at $525, but he sells the ring at $1200 and no one questions it's perceived value.

But if it is ebay all of the sudden it is an issue of moral efficacy, material, time, and labor, but honestly what is the real difference between the two ebay seller and the jeweler?

cnbarr said:

Outright I am fearful to debate you Scott, you are quite wise with your words, but I feel you are quite wrong (in my opinion, which is subjective to personal opinion). What you are saying is no different then saying a jeweler is wrong to sell his item because he is selling it far over the gold value. Let's say a ring that has 4g of gold, the jeweler sells for $1200, but there is only $200 worth of gold and maybe $150 worth of diamonds, for a total of $350. Then the jeweler adds a 50% markup for his labor, that still set the value at $525, but he sells the ring at $1200 and no one questions it's perceived value.

But if it is ebay all of the sudden it is an issue of moral efficacy, material, time, and labor, but honestly what is the real difference between the two ebay seller and the jeweler?

Click to expand...

I just do a good job pretending to be wise with words, in reality I am most likely not any different than you are.

Actually, you do a really good job debating yourself, and adding value to threads like this. =)

When you are talking about jewelry you also have to remember you are paying for artistic quality, for workmanship, labor and all kinds of other things like shipping, insurance, etc.

When you are buying a gold glob from someone off eBay, they have really done nothing. And in saying it's a gold drop from gold plated pins, you are also leaving the value, which you must be aware of, to be speculated when you know better. Everyone knows the value of gold, when you buy a ring it's 14k and so much weight, you know how much gold is in it, and you know what you are paying in markup. But when you sell a gold glob, nobody knows what metals are in it unless it's been assayed.

I think they are two totally different points, but I could be wrong and just seeing it that way. Buyer beware and all that, I agree with. However, that doesn't mean that I agree with refiners conducting themselves in such a way that makes all the rest of us look like scam artists, or people who prey on other people less knowledgeable.

Scott

Although a noble effort... Honestly... I think this discussion could go on forever and is pointless. "Morals" are different from individual to individual and cannot be taught or learned in the academic sense. They need only make sense to the individual. Trying to deem something moral or immoral is like asking what's better, blue or red?

blue :mrgreen:

nah gold 8)

:mrgreen: , Scott, Goldenchild,

All valid points, opinion is just that, opinion!

I had a whole list of rebuttals for you scott, but like goldenchild said we could go on and on for years in an argument like this forever. Like my philosophy teacher used to tell me, "the two worst types of arguments are the "circular" and the "reducto absurdium" (reduce to the absurd), they both point and counter pointer but lead no where.

Scott, I respect you and follow many of your posts with great interest, and would love to further this debate if you would also (through pm or possibly over the phone)? But it is coming to the point where what is the benefit of the forum?

Again Scott, if you want to further this (of course in a friendly manner) PM me and I will shoot you my phone number.

SBrown said:

However, that doesn't mean that I agree with refiners conducting themselves in such a way that makes all the rest of us look like scam artists, or people who prey on other people less knowledgeable. Scott

Click to expand...

One last point, not that I am aware of has any of these ebay sellers, selling gold pin drops, conveyed themselves as refiners or offered their services as such. Just because they were/are members that we are aware of does not mean they have represented themselves in such a way on ebay that is degrading the rest of us or our craft.

Yeah, this type of discussion is just people saying their views. No ones mind will ever be changed. It's still good to hear the opinions, because just having the issue brought to people's attention will raise their awareness and encourage them to behave responsibly.

I consider myself very honest. I don't do double features at movie theaters, I've informed professors they gave too high a score on a test, I've received free gifts in the mail at work intended for someone else and forwarded it to them.
But I think that selling something you're not misrepresenting and you know someone is going to overprice is not unethical. You're providing the item, the buyer provides the price. It'd be different if they were incapable of being informed, but they're not. Items are worth what people will pay for them.

Now, I also feel that sellers need to describe their items better. You have to describe your item fully, like say the actual % gold content, not just how you got it. Otherwise, I could make a post saying something like "100g bar of gold melted from 1g 24K gold bar + copper" or "silver refined from 2 pounds of 1965 US half dollars" (these are the 40% silver ones). You're selling the item, not what the item used to be, so describe the item, not what it used to be.

I sell door knobs on ebay, I buff them up using jewelers rouge on my 3 hp buffer. Mine sell for twice the money of what others offer.

I also cast fishing weight molds, using old molds previously purchased from ebay for my patterns, does this make me deceitful and dishonest.

When I sell on e-bay I give a truthful accurate discription. Whatever the buyers want to pay after that I have no control over. I don't care if the buyer pays too much. It happens all the time, and not just on e-bay. I myself have overpaid before. Oh well. Next!

rusty said:

I sell door knobs on ebay, I buff them up using jewelers rouge on my 3 hp buffer. Mine sell for twice the money of what others offer.

I also cast fishing weight molds, using old molds previously purchased from ebay for my patterns, does this make me deceitful and dishonest.

Click to expand...

Rusty, there is nothing wrong with what you do. and you may be able to squeeze a little more than that out of it. when people see what you have, they know exactly what it is. there can hardly be anyway to deceive someone with a doorknob unless you imply it came from the whitehouse bathroom door. :shock: :lol: the same with fishing weights. if you ask an inflated price, no one will buy it because the value of the item is in its usefulness, unless you implied it was made out of gold plated whatever.

Dare I say I know there is a joke in there somewhere about polishing door knobs. Just can't quite grasp what it is.... hmmmm

I have 2 full time eBay employees, and a 3rd that handles shipping only.

We have found that complete and utter honesty, to the point of TRYING TO SCARE AWAY CUSTOMERS, is the best route for us to go.

We don't try to get the MOST on each sale, we want the EASIEST sale. 8)

Less problems = more $ in the long run when running volume like we do.

cnbarr said:

SBrown said:

I was reading this thread:

http://goldrefiningforum.com/phpBB3/viewtopic.php?f=67&t=15083

I would like to draw this discussion out into a new thread that is not specifically talking about any individual person. Strictly the subject matter.

These are my thoughts on the subject. These are based on the gold drops that are seen on eBay now that consist of maybe 1% total gold.

Regardless if you are "following the rules" posting auctions that misrepresent the item in any fashion is wrong.

If someone posts a bar of metal that might possibly be 1% gold, then they post a buy it now price for a lot more than the worth of that 1% of gold, I think it is fairly clear that the person intends to mislead whoever it is they are trying to sell to.

If someone posts titles like "gold drop" yet it's only 1% gold I think that's very misleading as well. Maybe it should be called a copper drop with gold?

Matter of fact, so far as I am concerned, if someone posts a gold drop that is 1% gold, regardless if they are following eBay rules or not, regardless if the person is only posting things that are true, it still does not make the post right. It is still morally wrong.

Scott

Click to expand...

Outright I am fearful to debate you Scott, you are quite wise with your words, but I feel you are quite wrong (in my opinion, which is subjective to personal opinion). What you are saying is no different then saying a jeweler is wrong to sell his item because he is selling it far over the gold value. Let's say a ring that has 4g of gold, the jeweler sells for $1200, but there is only $200 worth of gold and maybe $150 worth of diamonds, for a total of $350. Then the jeweler adds a 50% markup for his labor, that still set the value at $525, but he sells the ring at $1200 and no one questions it's perceived value.

But if it is ebay all of the sudden it is an issue of moral efficacy, material, time, and labor, but honestly what is the real difference between the two ebay seller and the jeweler?

Click to expand...

Not to contest your integrity, but there is a reason that some products have a higher markup percentage than others, no matter what they are.

It generally goes like this: If a product stays "on the shelf," or in inventory a very short time, like bread in a grocery store, it has a "fast turnover rate." That results in the store being able to recover their cost, plus profit, and reinvest it rapidly. With a fast turnover product, you can mulitply your investment many times in a given period. In one month, for example, you will make more sales of each item, and thus end up with a greater amount of profit than if you only sold one of the items per month. So on fast turnover items, the markup percentage is low.

Now imagine a jewelry store. They can have lots of money tied up in inventory. You can see jewelry pieces sitting in their display cases for months before someone buys them. Jewelry is generally slow turnover. The markup percentage on jewelry is generally 300 to 500%. (That's why jewelry stores can have so many "half off" sales---they get a faster turnover during the "sale" period, and still sell at a profit.)

An average markup for any dry goods item is 100%, and this is called a "keystone" markup. Faster selling items can be priced below keystone, and slower selling items are usually above keystone markup. You can sell many items for below keystone, or just one or two "high end" products above keystone, and still "make the rent" just the same. Grocery stores usually run about an 18% markup for food products, because they are mostly very fast turnover.

That is the actual logic behind differing markup percentages for different types of products.

Industry standard markups are not just arbitrary or whimsical. There is some sense and fairness to them.

I just wanted to inject some perspective into what is being discussed, for what it's worth.