My issue isn't the metal gods, it's the accountability gods! :lol:
99.5%? Is it possible?
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HAuCl4
Well-known member
4metals said:
Try to think a way to use the same furnace you use to melt the silver, using a crucible like you suggested. Some pottery school can likely make you a large crucible for a song, and coal is cheap, else use wood!. :shock:
Not accountability in terms of what it costs to do it, accountability in terms of " you said 290 pounds of copper a week and we're only getting 280!!!"
HAuCl4
Well-known member
Geez. If I had clients that demanding... I would really use the furnace... :lol:
You mean make a fresh batch of bone ash!!!!! There's an idea.
HAuCl4
Well-known member
There's always the simplest solution to the original problem, without any furnaces, fluxes, jackrabbitts or other: Use a continuous process for replacing/keeping the electrolyte clean. It consumes some nitric acid sure but all the silver and copper would be easily recovered. I prefer the pyrotechnical processes, but that's just personal preference. If the cells are going to be ultimately used, might as well use them from the beginning.
My real goal here is to produce, from a cell, 99.99 silver. By going in with a product from a reverb, low in copper and traces of most other metals, (except silver and a few PPT gold and Pd)this is possible. Going in with sterling I can get 99.95 but the electrolyte needs more changing. True the copper is the major contaminant and is easily collected to get it into marketable form, but making 99.99 can fetch a $.10 premium and 50,000 oz a week that's $5000.
First objective, silver with a premium.
Second objective, where's the gold?
Third objective, what about that 8% copper?
Down the list but not forgotten, where's the Palladium. Never much but some.
First objective, silver with a premium.
Second objective, where's the gold?
Third objective, what about that 8% copper?
Down the list but not forgotten, where's the Palladium. Never much but some.
HAuCl4
Well-known member
9999 silver is a worthy goal, especially at the premium you quoted. I have no idea how to do it with a cell, but I will surely read whatever you post about making it. 8)
p.s.: There is a Sx process paper for silver here: http://goldrefiningforum.com/phpBB3/viewtopic.php?f=52&t=8225. Never used it or intend to, but it may be useful to you to clean up that electrolyte of Pd from the silver. Or you can set a Sx trap for the Pd with the other extractant, specific for Pd.
p.s.: There is a Sx process paper for silver here: http://goldrefiningforum.com/phpBB3/viewtopic.php?f=52&t=8225. Never used it or intend to, but it may be useful to you to clean up that electrolyte of Pd from the silver. Or you can set a Sx trap for the Pd with the other extractant, specific for Pd.
The original question that started this thread. Well now the big boys are playing hardball in NYC. 99.65% on bars 150 ounces or larger. Somethings got to give.
4metals said:
Well you know this business better than most 4metals and I'm sure you know the costs of refining almost to the cent so if your saying this it must be getting tight which in my opinion points to a decline in volumes which is what I'm seeing over here in the UK. The big collectors are still getting similar volumes but off many more customers which increases costs. The one saving grace for the refiners must be the price rises in silver and palladium which I assume they don't pay out on.
HAuCl4
Well-known member
4metals said:
They'll soon be bidding 100%+ imho.
9999+ Bars must be at a hefty premium. Maybe 0.5%+ ?. :shock:
Someone big must be short physical...lol
Fournines
Well-known member
I know a NYC company that claims to pay 99.65, sometimes even 99.75; they're trying to take over the biz on 47th street.
They are not "refining", and I know who they sell to.
Even if they are not paying people on the silver, you can't run your business entirely on that profit. Not with overhead and NYC rents.
They are not "refining", and I know who they sell to.
Even if they are not paying people on the silver, you can't run your business entirely on that profit. Not with overhead and NYC rents.
The future of the refining industry will indeed be interesting. Fournines is right, a middleman can't survive on those margins. Even if he works out of a farm in Idaho.
HAuCl4
Well-known member
Isn't it possible/likely that one of the "big guys", with say 1 Ton per day installed capacity, but that is running at less than installed, say 700 Kg/day, made arrangements to get an extra 200-300 Kgs using a "buyer/collector" that is paying up due to special arrangement/terms with the "big guy"?. His marginal costs on the processing of extra material are negligible, he makes money at -0.25% (shared with the collector) and keeps the silver, etc. At the same time he stifles small/medium competitors for free. :roll:
edit: IIRC a "big guy" wanting to become "good delivery" refiner, has to achieve and maintain a documented amount quota per month/year. So if they can breakeven or better on the processed extra material, they are achieving an extra "objective" at little or no cost. Just a possibility in a background of too much installed refiner capacity and too little material to refine. :roll:
The main requirements to be considered for listing are normally that a refiner must:
•Have an established track record of at least three years of producing the refined metal for which the listing is being sought
•Produce a minimum quantity of refined metal per year – 10 tonnes of gold and 30 tonnes of silver
•Have a tangible net worth of at least £10 million equivalent
•Furnish evidence of their ownership structure and directors
•Provide, if required, a suitable letter of endorsement, e.g., from the central bank or an acceptable commercial bank in their country of operation.
http://www.lbma.org.uk/pages/index.cfm?page_id=4
I believe further that Republic is currently seeking such good delivery status. There are only 55 such refiners active worldwide.
edit: IIRC a "big guy" wanting to become "good delivery" refiner, has to achieve and maintain a documented amount quota per month/year. So if they can breakeven or better on the processed extra material, they are achieving an extra "objective" at little or no cost. Just a possibility in a background of too much installed refiner capacity and too little material to refine. :roll:
The main requirements to be considered for listing are normally that a refiner must:
•Have an established track record of at least three years of producing the refined metal for which the listing is being sought
•Produce a minimum quantity of refined metal per year – 10 tonnes of gold and 30 tonnes of silver
•Have a tangible net worth of at least £10 million equivalent
•Furnish evidence of their ownership structure and directors
•Provide, if required, a suitable letter of endorsement, e.g., from the central bank or an acceptable commercial bank in their country of operation.
http://www.lbma.org.uk/pages/index.cfm?page_id=4
I believe further that Republic is currently seeking such good delivery status. There are only 55 such refiners active worldwide.
Fournines
Well-known member
This particular collector is getting paid around 99.75-99.80 from his refinery, and I think 97-99% on the silver in the alloy. He's not selling to Republic, they have their own NYC offices.
Assume he's doing around $4,000,000 a week. Let's assume that means 2,900 fine oz. If he pays his customers 99.65 and he gets 99.75 - that's 2.9 fine oz per week in profit, or around $4,060 with gold at $1,400. There is probably around 400 fine oz of silver in the alloy, which he might be paying his customers 60% of (on average). So that leaves 155.2 fine oz of silver profit - around $5,432 in silver profit (155.2*35).
Now you're probably thinking, "Wow, that's great $9,492 in profit every week." But if he needs advances on those refining lots every week to keep the cash flow going, $4 million at 8% interest comes out to around $360,000 in interest a year, or $6,153 per week in interest.
Now you're down to $3,339 a week in profit.
Subtract rent - at least $3k a month (just to rent a booth in an exchange on 47th St to buy gold costs that much).
Subtract electricity costs
Subtract water costs
Subtract employee and labor costs
Subtract supplies (crucibles, flux, stirring rods....)
You're doing a lot of work for very very little reward.
And if your gold assay is off by 0.1, you've just blown your profit.
Again, I'm not sure how that company is staying in business.
Assume he's doing around $4,000,000 a week. Let's assume that means 2,900 fine oz. If he pays his customers 99.65 and he gets 99.75 - that's 2.9 fine oz per week in profit, or around $4,060 with gold at $1,400. There is probably around 400 fine oz of silver in the alloy, which he might be paying his customers 60% of (on average). So that leaves 155.2 fine oz of silver profit - around $5,432 in silver profit (155.2*35).
Now you're probably thinking, "Wow, that's great $9,492 in profit every week." But if he needs advances on those refining lots every week to keep the cash flow going, $4 million at 8% interest comes out to around $360,000 in interest a year, or $6,153 per week in interest.
Now you're down to $3,339 a week in profit.
Subtract rent - at least $3k a month (just to rent a booth in an exchange on 47th St to buy gold costs that much).
Subtract electricity costs
Subtract water costs
Subtract employee and labor costs
Subtract supplies (crucibles, flux, stirring rods....)
You're doing a lot of work for very very little reward.
And if your gold assay is off by 0.1, you've just blown your profit.
Again, I'm not sure how that company is staying in business.
Barren Realms 007
In Remembrance
Fournines said:
That is the layout of the majority or buisnesses in this economy unless you can find a niche and stick with it. Everyone thinks running a business is all roses, it's not what it is all craked up to be.
HAuCl4
Well-known member
Or maybe the collector has a lot of cash and 8%+ is a mighty return for him, since the alternatives to invest cash at low risk are bleak. :shock:
EDI Refining
Well-known member
Fournines said:
I don't argue your numbers / math but I'd like to add they would be hedging and using market fluctuation which doesn't always go in their favor, but when it does a good chunk of change can be added to your profits.
The big boys are all charging 5% per annum these days, usually with a 90% advance and 5 days to settle. Still it adds up.
Those that don't hedge are taking huge risk, What do you do when on a day like this past Monday gold drops 1.7% Can't afford to do that too often. The market has been ramping upward for so long that most gold buyers haven't operated in a declining market. When that day comes a whole lot of amateurs will shake out of the business.
HAuCl4
Well-known member
Obviously the big boys settling in 5 days while refining in 5 hours run a huge short term positive cash flow lending borrowing operation, and
Any interest they manage to charge is pure profit free and clear.
4metals: Do you know details on how the big boys SELL their final output?. I.e. to whom, what terms, if 9999+ is there a premium, other. I could never "penetrate" the business that far and I'm curious.
Any interest they manage to charge is pure profit free and clear.
4metals: Do you know details on how the big boys SELL their final output?. I.e. to whom, what terms, if 9999+ is there a premium, other. I could never "penetrate" the business that far and I'm curious.
