Not a lot dissolved. I think I started with way too little copper. ty
Accomplished nothing so far
- Thread starter Edwin Price
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You need to read the cement it out thread.
The amount of Copper displaced is dependent on the amount of Gold in solution.
The amount of Copper dissolved will be determined by the amount of extra Nitric and the amount of Gold.
I would think max one gram of Copper for the Gold in solution and then some for the Nitric.
So if there are Copper left you have added plenty.
Yes, I read parts of the "Cement it out" thread, and it was helpful. I checked when I got home tonight. All the copper tubing pieces had finally dissolved into a thick black sludge. The solution is really nasty and black now. I purchased more copper and muriatic acid today. While I'm working on this recovery effort, I have not started any new refinement campaign. I'm depopulating circuit boards to ensure I have plenty of gold bearing material next time. I've also purchased Sulphamic Acid and Ferrous Sulfate to use in place of urea and SMB. Hoke says Ferrous Sulfate should work fine. Thank you for continuing to monitor and advise me on the situation.
You do not need to dissolve the Copper completely.
What you now have is a bunch of Copper sludge with maybe a bit of Gold in it.
The amount of Gold in your solution would barely be visible with the naked eye.
So instead of recovering anything you have now a bunch goo with maybe some minute amount of Gold in it.
Please read the complete thread, then read it again and when you think you understand it, read it again.
"Please read the complete thread, then read it again and when you think you understand it, read it again." Do you often address registered professional engineers (nuclear discipline) as if they were children?
When they do not listen to advice, yes.
You have been told several times what to do and expect and you push on, like nothing has been read or understood.
So tell me what will work and I will adjust to that.
Edit to add:
We/I do not know you the only thing we see is what you do and write here, and that is what drives the responses to you.
Titles do not bear any weight in here only promises.
anachronism
Well-known member
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- May 31, 2016
- Messages
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Hi Edwin. From another engineer (aircraft) here's the tech version. If your solution is fizzing and dissolving copper when you add it you've still got Nitric in there. You would need to keep denoxxing before trying to cement. Otherwise all you're doing is dissolving more copper and that is why your solution is turning black.
There's no point dissolving a load of copper so go back to the Sulphamic in the hot solution as I mentioned before until there's zero reaction when you add more. You don't have to worry about a bit of Sulphamic lying on the bottom when you've finished because filtering will get it out.
Once you have no reaction from the Sulphamic you're then in a situation where there is no Nitric left. Nitric is the oxidant in this process Edwin. Take away the oxidant and you're left with a stable solution containing some Gold Chloride. THIS is what you reduce to metallic gold, and if there's oxidant left you'll just end up in a vicious circle of reduction and oxidation which gets you absolutely nowhere.
Don't add any more HCl - it serves absolutely no purpose. Get rid of the Nitric first mate. It sounds like you've done what all of us do initially and used far too much. Don't worry it's almost a rite of passage and I bet everyone on here will agree.
I still think you've got a tiny amount of gold in there that may be difficult to quantify however let's park that for now and get to he point where you've got a non oxidising stable solution and that's going to be a win.
From where I'm sitting the learning curve should be to get this stable, then see what the next step is once you're there.
I did initially reply under the name Spaceships but now my "old" account has been reactivated hence the name change. I hope this helps.
Jon
There's no point dissolving a load of copper so go back to the Sulphamic in the hot solution as I mentioned before until there's zero reaction when you add more. You don't have to worry about a bit of Sulphamic lying on the bottom when you've finished because filtering will get it out.
Once you have no reaction from the Sulphamic you're then in a situation where there is no Nitric left. Nitric is the oxidant in this process Edwin. Take away the oxidant and you're left with a stable solution containing some Gold Chloride. THIS is what you reduce to metallic gold, and if there's oxidant left you'll just end up in a vicious circle of reduction and oxidation which gets you absolutely nowhere.
Don't add any more HCl - it serves absolutely no purpose. Get rid of the Nitric first mate. It sounds like you've done what all of us do initially and used far too much. Don't worry it's almost a rite of passage and I bet everyone on here will agree.
I still think you've got a tiny amount of gold in there that may be difficult to quantify however let's park that for now and get to he point where you've got a non oxidising stable solution and that's going to be a win.
From where I'm sitting the learning curve should be to get this stable, then see what the next step is once you're there.
I did initially reply under the name Spaceships but now my "old" account has been reactivated hence the name change. I hope this helps.
Jon
Edwin you came here to learn and sort out the mess that YOU had created , we are trying to help but seem to think you can skip the learning part which will give you all the answers you are now seeking , if I was to start messing with a nuclear reactor without any real world experience or doing the studying what would your response be to me, put away your pride and listen to the advice that’s been freely given.
Martijn
Well-known member
well, you need to stop and study, really. we tried to tell you to: ask before you do.
like:
Why more muriatic /HCl? this is a sign of misunderstanding that we notice. Immediately.
Measure pH first and know the acidity, don't just add more of something because there is no reaction.
The addition of HCl was advised to make cementation or SBM precipitation possible. This needs the correct pH to work. these details are written in the "when in doubt cement it out" thread.
The "read it ten times at least" is because your understanding will increase every time you read it. Just like with Hoke's book.
And you will have more questions every time you read it. And then you start to notice the fine details you completely missed the first time because you did not understand it makes a difference. But everything is extremely important. Your info about steps taken can not be to much, ever.
Maybe the best advice yet!
That solution has the potential to dissolve a lot more gold, so why waste that beautiful oxidizer to get the (as you said: only visible) gold from 3 PC's? Only a stannous test will show that little gold in solution, and you may not be able to see where it went after precipitation.
A hand full of gold foils can way as little as 0.25 gram, you will not have a lot of brown precipitate from that.
The little details are extremely important, and to be honest until you have performed/read/studied the acquaintance test from Miss Hoke's book, and you can have read the "cement it out" thread at least four times, you have no business dealing with hydrometallurgy.
it's lethal, you can loose your values or lock them up in salts and trash, which are all easily avoided if you follow the right path.
"Do first ask later" is not the right path.
so: ask us before you do anything.
Please read this thread to understand why (even very smart) people need to slow down:
https://goldrefiningforum.com/threa...imple-question-and-get-a-simple-answer.21412/
You don't go field testing a nuke without some form of hazard analysis right?
No offense intended, I think you still have a way better attitude compared to most folk asking for help and some are even demanding a personal assistant, yesterday. Like your answer of my initial questions was a nice example of giving structured info.
Stay on that track!
Martijn.
Thank you for jumping back in to provide helpful information. I really appreciate it. Indeed, as an aerospace engineer, you understand we generally work via detailed technical procedures, directives and vendor manuals whether in the office or the field. And, we do the calculations, run the codes and write the approved procedures. I wish there was a step by step procedure for the gold refining process. Yes indeed, it's pretty clear I used way too much Nitric acid on my initial attempt. I was taught AR was a 3:1 ratio. Now I know one can get by with much less nitric in incremental doses. I have bought and am switching to sulphalmic acid instead of urea. I initially used urea and "stump out" SMB because I watched the Sreetips videos. I may be asking you a bunch more questions over time, if that's ok. But eventually I will get this process correct and perform it efficiently every time. Again, I'm grateful for your help, good sir.
Hello Martijn. That link has some very useful safety info that I enjoyed reading and agree that anyone working with hazardous chemicals should fully understand the implications. On a personal note, I have panned gold, but am new to gold refining, not Chemistry. When I was a kid I had my own laboratory setup starting with a Gilbert Chemistry set. Back then, one living in a small town had to order glassware, lab supplies, extra chemicals, etc. that took weeks to arrive. I had a propane torch kit, but most experiments involving heat were performed with an alcohol lamp. Many of our projects involved making fireworks and rockets with common pharmacy chemicals. We also made hydrogen gas to fill balloons that carried away messages. Later on I learned to make nitric acid by condensing the extremely poisonous nitrogen dioxide fumes produced from combining sodium nitrate fertilizer and sulphuric acid drain cleaner into distilled water. There was no internet back then, so I learned these methods from research done at the public library and with the help from my friends and a chemistry teacher. As part of my engineering education I took two semesters of chemistry, a course in Materials science and Nuclear materials.
Oh yeah, I bought more HCL because I was running low and plan future recovery campaigns. Once I have everything down pat and have completed successful gold recoveries myself, I hope to write a useful step by step technical procedure for the process. That's the way we handle things in the nuclear world whether it's for research reactors, subs, commercial power plants or other things I can't discuss here.
Thank you for your help, info provided and for being cordial in your responses. Best regards, edp
Oh yeah, I bought more HCL because I was running low and plan future recovery campaigns. Once I have everything down pat and have completed successful gold recoveries myself, I hope to write a useful step by step technical procedure for the process. That's the way we handle things in the nuclear world whether it's for research reactors, subs, commercial power plants or other things I can't discuss here.
Thank you for your help, info provided and for being cordial in your responses. Best regards, edp
We have opted to not make step by step instructions due to two things.
One it is way to easy for someone with no clue to tangle themselves into a real mess this way.
We prefer people to study and understand.
The next reason is that if you have a homogeneous feed stock it can be possible with a step by step instruction set.
But there is way too much different material to be able to write a comprehensive step by step list that works for all situations.
The best I can see is a series of flow charts pointing to the next one.
Really not practical in a real life situation.
Just an example.
If you go to the literature and calculate the stochiometric need for Nitric in AR to dissolve one gram of Gold you will get 1 ml.
But in real life it can be done with as little as 0.5 ml or you might need as much 1.5 ml.
So we say it takes what it takes.
Edit for spelling
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I came here and joined as a paying member to learn the most efficient process for retrieving gold from computer and electrical component scraps. The "mess" I have made so far is of little consequence. I can neutralize all the acids and evaporate unnecessary liquids any time. I never employed anything like cyanide or mercury that could be a significant environmental concern. However, if there are minor quantities of gold in that waste, I'd like to try to retrieve it. IF it doesn't work, I'm only out a few scrap computers.
I did a lot of reading and learning about the gold refinement process of computer/electrical scrap before I came to this site. I have watched Sreetips and Archimedes videos on YouTube. And, I have received some very useful info via responses from members on this forum so far. I was hoping someone had written a step by step procedure for the gold retrieval process. I may eventually be that person, because I will eventually succeed in my goal.
Thank you,
edp
Martijn
Well-known member
You can and I'm sure you will. You are in the right place with all the info you need is already written and in the minds of our members.
The dissolved metal salts you have created are toxic to all life, especially aquatic life. They can be processed and discarded, read the dealing with waste link Yggdrasil gave you.
That is part of of the 'dealing with waste' thread. Recovery of traces of precious metals is step 1. This is actually cementing it out on copper. Exactly as the when in doubt cement it out thread.
We advise against that.
You need to follow the path of learning the basics and putting a plan together for us to review. One can do it all without the review, but with trial and error. If you read the thread 'why cant i ask a simple question... this will be clear.
As you don't know how to do these basic things yet, you are in danger of doing something that may be irreversible.
Start small. Test tubes. Not beakers.
It took me a couple years to study after my first mess before I felt confident enough to really start with this as a serious hobby.
I 'Inquarted' (actually melted and made shot) gold plated pins and put that in nitric in 2014 after seeing a you tube video from streetips about inquarting karat gold. Well, that did not work.
You can read it all in our thousands of threads. It's right here.
You can get advice what to study.
And which processes are best for certain materials.
Stay safe and healthy.
And have fun making sense of this all. Because it really keeps the mind busy!
Edwin, with all due respect, you keep mentioning that you were hoping someone had written a step by step procedure. I directed you to a post I wrote on cementing. It's as step by step as I could make it. According to your own post, you read "parts of" it.
There are many other examples of such procedures in Hoke's book and on this forum. But you do have to read them fully to get the benefit.
You've been here for a little over two weeks. It took me a year and a half to read through the forum the first time.
I wish you luck in your studies.
Dave
Martijn
Well-known member
Btw, i am not a paying member.
This forum is about sharing info for free by members who want to share that info for free.
I do all this in my spare time. While some gold plated jewelry is stripping away in concentrated H2SO4
Cheers!
This forum is about sharing info for free by members who want to share that info for free.
I do all this in my spare time. While some gold plated jewelry is stripping away in concentrated H2SO4
Cheers!
Edwin you may be a paying member but I can assure no one on the forum receives any of that money it goes to the forum owners to help pay for the forum running costs, what help anyone offers is done out of the spirit of generosity by those members , you have access to the greatest collection of recovery and refining knowledge on the planet with many of the posts by some of the finest refiners but all the members have limited time which is why we ask members to study.
A step by step process is great…when it doesn’t run into problems. So… when you write it up be sure to include any and all potential problems and how to correct them, without disrupting the work flow process and chart.
I’m not being rude or smart, just looking at the issue you face from a potential user standpoint. You are not the first new member with this idea, I am sure you won’t be the last, and so far none have completed the job. A few are still here, most have moved on to other things.
How ever it works out, Good Luck and don’t forget to have fun with it.
I’m not being rude or smart, just looking at the issue you face from a potential user standpoint. You are not the first new member with this idea, I am sure you won’t be the last, and so far none have completed the job. A few are still here, most have moved on to other things.
How ever it works out, Good Luck and don’t forget to have fun with it.
anachronism
Well-known member
- Joined
- May 31, 2016
- Messages
- 3,179
Edwin. You'll get there. Learn one part of the process at a time. Rinse and repeat until it's nailed. You've already learned the folly of too much Nitric so that's a win right out of the gate. Two tips if I may:
1. If you haven't already- get a copy of the reactivity series of metals. It's widely used in recovering precious metals from liquids.
2. Get a serious grip on what reagents dissolve which metals and equally importantly which metals are not dissolved by certain reagents. I use the term reagents because there are both acids and alkalis used in recovery. It is honestly a cracking starting point. There's no need to be a chemist but it helps to have a cracking grounding in the basics because the secret to this trade is recovery not refining. If you can't get your gold, you can't refine it and make shiny bars.
The chemistry is also extremely useful for situations where you stuff it up (and we all do it) and then have to work out how to still get the gold out of a mess....
There's a wealth of experience in this group even if it comes across somewhat gruffly at times.
1. If you haven't already- get a copy of the reactivity series of metals. It's widely used in recovering precious metals from liquids.
2. Get a serious grip on what reagents dissolve which metals and equally importantly which metals are not dissolved by certain reagents. I use the term reagents because there are both acids and alkalis used in recovery. It is honestly a cracking starting point. There's no need to be a chemist but it helps to have a cracking grounding in the basics because the secret to this trade is recovery not refining. If you can't get your gold, you can't refine it and make shiny bars.
The chemistry is also extremely useful for situations where you stuff it up (and we all do it) and then have to work out how to still get the gold out of a mess....
There's a wealth of experience in this group even if it comes across somewhat gruffly at times.
Proffshuggarn
I know it’s out there, somewhere..
@Edwin Price, You will be interested of the other metals to, believe me
. When you have got it right, and looking at your first self made shiny golden button in your crucible.. Exactly then, thoughts about the rest of the PM:s and PGM:s often start to appear
. I’m also new to this, and the veterans (and some others) here on the forum is very very skilled in the many many techniques that recover and refine e-waste is. And very kind and pedagogic to help us new ones.
But to get that help, it’s important to read what they ask you to do, and sometimes it’s straight questions, but remember, it’s so they can help us new ones to identify what went wrong so they can propose a better solution or explain what went wrong
. And Hokes book can’t be read too many times.. It’s essentially for this we do here.
You’ll make it, cause even I did
Be safe, start small, have patience
/Dennis
