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It is fesable in that pot furnace to melt gold with it. This tourch is used for heating large areas. You want to be looking at a tourch that concentrates the flame to a smaller point. Look at the videos again and you will see where I have my flames at. At the edge of the blue flame that is your hottest area and you want this concentrated to apply the heat correctly.
 
Hi Barren
Can I melt gold and platinum with this

3/4" Venturi Burners:

Completely assembled and ready to install in your forge.

These Venturi burners will heat a typical well insulated forge volume of approximately 350 cubic inches up to forge welding temperature!


- Requires propane hose, regulator (0-30 psi), and POL fitting (see below!).

- May require some tuning for your particular forge, but it's easy to do!

$80.00


The Video below shows one of our Venturi Burners operating over the pressure range of 1 - 30 psi. Click the "play" button to view

http://www.elliscustomknifeworks.com/
 
PreciousMexpert said:
Hi Barren
Can I melt gold and platinum with this

3/4" Venturi Burners:

Completely assembled and ready to install in your forge.

These Venturi burners will heat a typical well insulated forge volume of approximately 350 cubic inches up to forge welding temperature!


- Requires propane hose, regulator (0-30 psi), and POL fitting (see below!).

- May require some tuning for your particular forge, but it's easy to do!

$80.00


The Video below shows one of our Venturi Burners operating over the pressure range of 1 - 30 psi. Click the "play" button to view

http://www.elliscustomknifeworks.com/

With the venturi burner yes you can melt gold with a burner of this type. The burner and burning chamber will need to be matched so you can keep your temperature up. You don't want to put an 1/8" supply line on a 30 gal pot(not enough BTU input) and you don't want to put a 1" burner on a 3 gal pot(too much BTU input. Always try to keep an eye on your BTU output rating as this is the amount of heat you are developing.

For platinum you will need a set up like an oxy/acet set up but you can not use acet because it can contaminate the metal with carbon when melting. In place of acet it is recomended to use propane.

The refractory needs to be rated for 3,000 deg. The bag's you order should be date tagged because the refractory has a shelf life if not used.
 
You're not going to have any luck melting platinum in a typical gas crucible furnace. The melting point of Pt is 3215 F. With a natural gas furnace, for practical reasons, the upper limit is about 2300 - 2400 F, and that's difficult to obtain. Unless you spend a lot of money, the highest temperature rating of common refractory is about 3000 F. I know from experience that SiC crucibles can soften at white heat.

There are basically 3 ways to melt platinum: resistance melting, induction melting, and torch melting. As I recall, Ms. Hoke's daddy developed the first practical torch to melt platinum. It was called the Hoke torch and it is still sold. I think it originally used H2/O2 and some sort of lime melting dish for platinum.

Here's a chart of temperature colors that I posted earlier. I took it from a fire assay book. Note that white is about 2200 F and above. When the furnace and what's in it turns white, you can barely see the crucible. It's very hot to work around white heat and, with even a medium sized furnace, protective aluminized clothing is needed.

APPROXIMATE FURNACE TEMPERATURE COLORS

Lowest red visible in the dark.......... 470 C ..... 878 F
Dark red, blood-red....................... 550 C ..... 1022 F
Dark cherry.................................. 625 C ..... 1127 F
Cherry-red, full cherry................... 700 C ..... 1292 F
Light red....................................... 850 C ..... 1530 F
Orange......................................... 900 C ..... 1652 F
Light orange.................................. 950 C ..... 1742 F
Yellow........................................... 1000 C ... 1832 F
Light yellow................................... 1050 C ... 1922 F
White.................................... 1150-1200 C ... 2102-2192 F
 
goldsilverpro said:
Might I suggest a set of cutting goggles to look thru or a welders helmet.

I like to see the colors. Actually, with a small furnace, low to the ground, you can take quick looks with just a clear face shield.

Me and you know this along with other experienced people here. But new people don't realize the danger in looking at heated items like this and don't realize it takes but a few seconds of aw amazing color and bam your eye's are possibly damaged. That was the reason for my recomendation. Your idea was excellent as well and has been used for many decades.
 
"You will not be able to do platinum with that tourch." Quote

I agree. Iron is about the max you can melt using air aspiration and propane.
Remember the blacksmith used air and coke to hammer weld iron.

dickb
 
dick b said:
Remember the blacksmith used air and coke to hammer weld iron.

Platinum melting,no. But I have forge welded up to 3/4" using a propane forge.
 
PreciousMexpert said:
Hi Oz
forge welded up to 3/4" using a propane forge
This is intresting can you tell us more about this
Thanks

It is taking 2 pieces of Iron and heating them in a forge with added air flow to increase the heat till they are glowing close to melting temp. They are then placed on an anvil and beat till they are fused together.

This is not to be confused with layering metal the way that true oriental swords are made.
 
goldnugget77 said:
Hi Barren
That is intresting
Can you join metals in this way withoult solder or welding sticks

It is a crude and backwards way of joining metals together. But yes as far as know I virtualy all metals can be done this way if you can get them hot enough. This will not give you the same hamoginous mix as if the metals were melted together because this is being done with force.

There is a company that does work for the US Armed forces that will take 2 diffrent kinds of metal and place them on top of each other. They put an even coat of explosives on top of the metal as a powder. When the explosive is detonated it fuses the 2 metals together. I think they are using it in armor plating, been a while since I have seen the report.
 
There is a company that does work for the US Armed forces that will take 2 diffrent kinds of metal and place them on top of each other. They put an even coat of explosives on top of the metal as a powder. When the explosive is detonated it fuses the 2 metals together. I think they are using it in armor plating, been a while since I have seen the report.

Sounds like thermite welding. I think they used to use that for railroad rails.
 
goldsilverpro said:
There is a company that does work for the US Armed forces that will take 2 diffrent kinds of metal and place them on top of each other. They put an even coat of explosives on top of the metal as a powder. When the explosive is detonated it fuses the 2 metals together. I think they are using it in armor plating, been a while since I have seen the report.

Sounds like thermite welding. I think they used to use that for railroad rails.

Nope that is a completely different process. That is a melting process. This is a force fusion process. No extra heat is involved just the impact of the explosion. It does not mix the metals, they still stay in ther original form but where they meet together they are fused together.
 
I have always done my forge work with bituminous coal forges. But I have had 2 occasions were I was provided the opportunity of forge welding out of a propane forge. Both forges were naturally aspirated propane forges that did a good job of reaching a welding heat.

There is far greater detail than I will go into here as to the manufacture of the oriental swords of old but they were forge welded. Before the invention of Henry Cort's puddling furnace to produce wrought iron in decent quantities and the advent of small rolling mills, iron was produced in small batches in a bloomery furnace. Now a bloomery furnace is much smaller than one would imagine being about the same size as a typical forge of the time. The metal produced was very inconsistent as to quality and carbon content. One bloom may be nearly free of carbon and another be steel, the solution to this (other than setting aside some steel blooms for cutting edges like the bit in an ax) was to take 2 or more blooms and forge welding them together. It was then repeatedly drawn out and folded over on itself as a forge weld, in this way giving a more homogeneous mass. If executed properly this process also removed excess carbon that made the iron too hard and brittle for most applications.

Later they found they could take these blooms to a welding heat and run them through rollers and they would weld, saving much labor. If you look at old wrought iron that has corroded or you can grind and etch yourself you can see the different layers like a wood grain (this is the grain you see etched in old swords, but finer in the blade by far). Then came Henry Cort's puddling furnace that revolutionized iron manufacture giving good consistent low carbon wrought iron. It was still run through rolls and welded upon itself as this removed dross (molten silica) from the iron and improved the quality in general. They actually sold this in different grades dependent on how many times it had been through the rolls.

On a last note the making of wrought iron is actually a high temperature chemical reaction using carbon monoxide to reduce the iron ore not a simple melting process.

Harold may wish to elaborate further.
 
Oz,

Very good post.

The only reason I mentioned the oriental swords is because it is my understanding that they are folded in layers. If I remember right I think there is something added between layers. This give the metal more flexability and a better edge can be put on the sword.
 
I am purposely staying away from the term Damascus steel as there are more than one type and it would get confusing and serve no point here. For the purpose of this conversation I will define what I am talking about as folded and welded sword and knife blades.

Fine swords were folded and forge welded. As an example you would take 5 slabs of iron and forge weld them together then draw them out to double their original length and cut it in half, these 2 halves were then forge welded together giving you 10 layers.

The value in this is not to gain homogeneity of the iron but to layer 2 different irons with differing characteristics . Your original 5 layers would alternate between very high carbon and low carbon iron. As this process was repeated the layer count increases and the layers become thinner. When the finished product was tempered you would have thin layers of very hard high carbon steel that would shatter like glass if the blade was struck against an object. However having alternating layers of low carbon steel that will not harden bonded between hardened layers gives a cushion or support to them. It is the best of both worlds as you can have a far harder tool steel edge that will perform better than a low carbon soft iron edge with a greatly reduced risk of damage in use.

A crude example is the hand forged ax. If the whole head where made of highly hardened tool steel it would shatter even chopping wood. However if you have but a thin leaf forge welded in the center of an ax head (the bit of the ax) and the remainder low carbon iron you can give the piece a relatively hard temper (a dark straw to light blue) and it is only the bit that will be hardened due to the different carbon contents. Your leading edge will always be high carbon but will be cushioned by the low carbon giving far less risk of damage for the same level of hardness of your “working” edge.

This is a simple explanation of a very complex subject of course. I would enjoy hearing Harold's input and commentary given his machinist background.
 
BURNER
http://elliscustomknifeworks.hightemptools.com/images/venturi.jpg
$45.00
-----------------------------
http://www.zoellerforge.com/zburner.html
Z Burner™
$60.00
-----------------------
http://www.zoellerforge.com/flare.html
Side Arm Burner kits
$45.00
________________________________________________
PRPOANE REGULATOR
Single Burner Connection kit.
http://www.zoellerforge.com/flare.html
$75.00
--------------------------
0 - 17 PSI Propane Regulator/Assembly Kit:
http://elliscustomknifeworks.hightemptools.com/propaneregulators.html
- Assembly kit with 10 foot propane hose & pressure gauge - $56.95


********************************************************
SUMMARY
1) The total is about 120 dollare if I buy from ellis
2) The total is about 120 dollare if I buy from zoeller( Side Arm Burner kits)
3) The total is about 135 dollare if I buy from zoeller( Z Burner™)
The dollare differnece is nothing here its only by a few bucks
My problem is that I cant decide on which model to choose.
I have numbered the combination 1,2,3
If you can give me your opinion on which number that would help
Just tell me 1or 2 or 3
Thanks
 

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