AP method Dissolved my gold flakes

[Wistian]

Hi,

I am not a chemist I am a hobbyist and very new to this. So when Replying please treat me like a idiot.

I only found this forum after I started so forgive my mistake please.

I was using AP method to remove gold flakes from trimmed ram. I used way to much Hydrogen Peroxide so the flakes dissolved.

I was trying to find out exactly how to fix this from the forum but the only thing I was able to find that was helpful was the following :

"The last key note is that if you use too much hydrogen peroxide (3%) to initially generate your copper II chloride you may dissolve some of your gold into solution. If you think more is better and add too much too quickly or use too high of a concentration of hydrogen peroxide you will dissolve gold. The peroxide is a catalyst for the reaction, not the active ingredient. If you do this then simply keep using your AP as directed without adding any peroxide until it becomes saturated with copper and the gold will cement out on it's own. There is no need to add any other precipitants to the solution and doing so will foul the solution."

Can someone explain exactly what I need to do to get the gold out of the solution. I am not sure how to Cement out the gold.
Thanks and remember I am an idiot.

Regards,

 

[FrugalRefiner]

Can someone explain exactly what I need to do to get the gold out of the solution. I am not sure how to Cement out the gold.

Wistian,

Welcome to the forum.

In refining, to "cement" a metal (like your gold), means that we put another metal that is more reactive into a solution, which causes the target material to precipitate out of solution in what kind of looks like wet cement. The quick answer is to just keep using your solution. When you've processed enough, the copper in the fingers will cement any gold out of solution.

Take a read through the Tips for Navigating and Posting on the Forum. There's a link to a glossary there that will familiarize you with the terms used here. Follow all the links and it will get you off to a good start.

Dave

 

[sri steve]

Hi, the advice I will give you is the same as I got when joining this forum and the world of refining.

First; stop what you are doing, search on this forum for answers and read as much as possible about what you are trying to process, it is all here.

There is golden rule about chemical refining, ‘homework’ this comes in the way of reading the threads on this forum and the Hoke book.

What you are trying to do is very basic and once you have done some homework it will all fall into place.

Please understand that you would not be asking this question if you had a basic knowledge of how to strip ram fingers and the answer is in your thread.

Please do as I did and read as possible on the process you wish to do, there are many dangers you need to understand, safety comes first to you and others.
Good luck.

 

[Wistian]

Can someone explain exactly what I need to do to get the gold out of the solution. I am not sure how to Cement out the gold.

Wistian,

Welcome to the forum.

In refining, to "cement" a metal (like your gold), means that we put another metal that is more reactive into a solution, which causes the target material to precipitate out of solution in what kind of looks like wet cement. The quick answer is to just keep using your solution. When you've processed enough, the copper in the fingers will cement any gold out of solution.

Take a read through the Tips for Navigating and Posting on the Forum. There's a link to a glossary there that will familiarize you with the terms used here. Follow all the links and it will get you off to a good start.

Dave

Thanks Dave!,

I will take a read through. So right now I do not have any addition fingers that need processing but it sounds like I could add Bright Copper (Copper 1 for Scrappers). If i add enough it will "cement" out the gold.

Regards,

 

[butcher]

Wistian,

Not knowing something does not make anyone an idiot.

You had the answer in the quote you posted you just did not quit understand what it was saying, maybe if I say it a different way.

When you used too much (or too strong) hydrogen peroxide you dissolved both copper and the gold into solution, now you have a chloride solution of both copper and gold ions along with the chlorides, as copper and gold chloride.

If you add elemental copper, this could be from more foils, or from a clean copper metal bar, the chlorides would rather hold copper than your gold, and will cement or precipitate the gold out of solution as it dissolves more copper from your foils or bar.

This is a replacement reaction the copper metal will replace the gold from the solution.

The gold will form a brown powder, you may notice it trying to plate out onto the added copper, but it will not stick very well and can be brushed off the copper buss bar.

If you just added more memory fingers the copper dissolving from them will replace your gold from solution leaving you with gold powder, and possibly gold foils if they too are not dissolved from the excess peroxide...

The gold powder will be fine, and can take some time to settle and will be black in color.

The term cement is normally used for silver as it looks like cement, for gold it is more of a precipitant of elemental gold but as a fine black powder.

Replacement reactions like this, are used often with the chemistry of metals, metals have a series of reactivity, with this we can cement, or replace one metal from solution with another metal that is higher in the reactivity series of metals, and with this list we will know what metal will replace another from solution...

The reactivity series of metals is also helpful in other areas of chemistry, as some non metals are also included in the lists, like hydrogen, carbon and sometimes oxygen, this can be helpful to know a metals reaction with for example acid (hydrogen of the acid) whether the metal will be attacked and how vigorously, whether in its reaction it forms water or hydrogen gas from the hydrogen of the acid...

For a better understanding do some research on the reactivity series of metals, and replacement reactions in chemistry, this will be very useful to you in your lab work, and know what may be going on in a solution, or how to solve a problem...

Spend some time studying the copper chloride leach, Laser Steve's web site has a document that makes a great start to that study.

To make the answer short, and simple, just dissolve some more memory fingers in your copper chloride solution, collect the gold foils and the black gold powders...

 

[Wistian]

Wistian,

Not knowing something does not make anyone an idiot.

You had the answer in the quote you posted you just did not quit understand what it was saying, maybe if I say it a different way.

When you used too much (or too strong) hydrogen peroxide you dissolved both copper and the gold into solution, now you have a chloride solution of both copper and gold ions along with the chlorides, as copper and gold chloride.

If you add elemental copper, this could be from more foils, or from a clean copper metal bar, the chlorides would rather hold copper than your gold, and will cement or precipitate the gold out of solution as it dissolves more copper from your foils or bar.

This is a replacement reaction the copper metal will replace the gold from the solution.

The gold will form a brown powder, you may notice it trying to plate out onto the added copper, but it will not stick very well and can be brushed off the copper buss bar.

If you just added more memory fingers the copper dissolving from them will replace your gold from solution leaving you with gold powder, and possibly gold foils if they too are not dissolved from the excess peroxide...

The gold powder will be fine, and can take some time to settle and will be black in color.

The term cement is normally used for silver as it looks like cement, for gold it is more of a precipitant of elemental gold but as a fine black powder.

Replacement reactions like this, are used often with the chemistry of metals, metals have a series of reactivity, with this we can cement, or replace one metal from solution with another metal that is higher in the reactivity series of metals, and with this list we will know what metal will replace another from solution...

The reactivity series of metals is also helpful in other areas of chemistry, as some non metals are also included in the lists, like hydrogen, carbon and sometimes oxygen, this can be helpful to know a metals reaction with for example acid (hydrogen of the acid) whether the metal will be attacked and how vigorously, whether in its reaction it forms water or hydrogen gas from the hydrogen of the acid...

For a better understanding do some research on the reactivity series of metals, and replacement reactions in chemistry, this will be very useful to you in your lab work, and know what may be going on in a solution, or how to solve a problem...

Spend some time studying the copper chloride leach, Laser Steve's web site has a document that makes a great start to that study.

To make the answer short, and simple, just dissolve some more memory fingers in your copper chloride solution, collect the gold foils and the black gold powders...

Thanks butcher!!! That is exactly what I needed. Very appreciative of the explanation!!

 

[andym25]

Hi, the advice I will give you is the same as I got when joining this forum and the world of refining.

First; stop what you are doing, search on this forum for answers and read as much as possible about what you are trying to process, it is all here.

There is golden rule about chemical refining, ‘homework’ this comes in the way of reading the threads on this forum and the Hoke book.

What you are trying to do is very basic and once you have done some homework it will all fall into place.

Please understand that you would not be asking this question if you had a basic knowledge of how to strip ram fingers and the answer is in your thread.

Please do as I did and read as possible on the process you wish to do, there are many dangers you need to understand, safety comes first to you and others.
Good luck.

I don't understand why when people on this forum ask for help, everyone is always telling them to stop what they're doing, put it away and read. I can guarantee 80 percent of people will not take that advice, that's why they are here asking for help
Can't you just help them by answering their question as best you can, or just ignore it all together..?

 

[Yggdrasil]

I don't understand why when people on this forum ask for help, everyone is always telling them to stop what they're doing, put it away and read. I can guarantee 80 percent of people will not take that advice, that's why they are here asking for help
Can't you just help them by answering their question as best you can, or just ignore it all together..?

Welcome.
We do not want people to get injured or hurt someone else do we?
This is a dangerous "hobby".
So when we say STOP it is to stop them so they can slow down and have time to learn.
Another thing is that if they do take our advice they will actually learn and as such need less advice in the future.

As we say it is better to teach people to fish than just giving it to them.
They will just be standing there with their hands reached out for more fish.

We are just a few here that are trying to help many and we simply do not have the time or energy to reach all that way.

 

[galenrog]

I don't understand why when people on this forum ask for help, everyone is always telling them to stop what they're doing, put it away and read. I can guarantee 80 percent of people will not take that advice, that's why they are here asking for help
Can't you just help them by answering their question as best you can, or just ignore it all together..?

Well, most novices who come here seeking a miracle to their self created ineptitude formulate their questions in a manner akin to asking “how long is a rope?”. There is simply no answer that will suffice without additional information, which can not be provided without the novice receiving a lot more knowledge and experience.

This is especially critical when dealing with chemical combinations that can easily cause death, or worse, for beginners. Several longtime members, well versed in their craft due to long careers in the field of recovery and refining of precious metals, lost their lives, sometimes years and even decades, after making only one minor mistake in the area of safety or chemistry. Novices also have made errors, large and small, that have cost the loss of lung or kidney function, causing abject misery until dying months or years later.

From the ground up. Line upon line. Brick by brick. There are no shortcuts.

And you ask why.

Time for more coffee.

 

[Martijn]

I don't understand why when people on this forum ask for help, everyone is always telling them to stop what they're doing, put it away and read. I can guarantee 80 percent of people will not take that advice, that's why they are here asking for help
Can't you just help them by answering their question as best you can, or just ignore it all together..?

Becaise we care about your health, which reflects on the health of our community and this forum.

So, Please stop whay you are doing( pun intended) and read this and come back to us if your understanding has changed after reading it.
Thread 'Why Can't I Ask a Simple Question and get a Simple Answer?' https://goldrefiningforum.com/threa...imple-question-and-get-a-simple-answer.21412/
And welcome to the forum.

 

[Martijn]

“how long is a rope?”.

I thought how long was chinese.

 

[galenrog]

I thought how long was chinese.

That poor attempt at humor was old when my grandparents were born. Do better.

 

[haveagojoe]

Welcome.
We do not want people to get injured or hurt someone else do we?
This is a dangerous "hobby".
So when we say STOP it is to stop them so they can slow down and have time to learn.
Another thing is that if they do take our advice they will actually learn and as such need less advice in the future.

As we say it is better to teach people to fish than just giving it to them.
They will just be standing there with their hands reached out for more fish.

We are just a few here that are trying to help many and we simply do not have the time or energy to reach all that way.

I agree but andym25 does have a point- members who are told to "STOP" rarely listen, as we are seeing in one of the other currently active threads. Members who are actually here to learn seldom cause such concerns.

 

[Yggdrasil]

I agree but andym25 does have a point- members who are told to "STOP" rarely listen, as we are seeing in one of the other currently active threads. Members who are actually here to learn seldom cause such concerns.

Giving up on them is not an option in my eyes.
Most of the no ears people ends up getting banned, but at least we have tried.

 

[haveagojoe]

Giving up on them is not an option in my eyes.
Most of the no ears people ends up getting banned, but at least we have tried.

I agree but I must say I admire your patience

 

[Martijn]

That poor attempt at humor was old when my grandparents were born. Do better.

I can't. I'm half german. We have no humor.