Black powder/slime

[butcher]

Funny dtectr, I can use two fingers now, one on each hand to type (and can use spell-check, but seems I have to edit to get that done) I have learned a lot here thanks to you guy's...

Travis86,
Do not worry about the past, we just do not want to see you hurt yourself or others, and it makes us all cry to see any rare gold get flushed like U-know-what, this stuff is very rare and with hard times in the forecast it could mean survival.

Please do spend the needed time studying, it also sounds as though you are trying whole circuit boards in acid peroxide, that would not be advisable for a new refiner, the tin and lead is hard to deal with unless you understand all principles involved, and treating the waste is even more important when we are talking toxic lead compounds.

Maybe give a little more description of your process and one of the guys will assist.

 

[travis86]

What does he mean typing with one hand? Are you missing a limb? I'm doing small game cartridge boards. I removed the chips and everything from the boards. I would of just cut the fingers off and did them but theirs gold traces on other parts of the boards. They have been int he ap for about 17 hours now and is close to being ready for the next phase. If spell check is a pain for you then Download the firefox internet browser it has a built in spell check on anything you type that's internet related.

 

[jasondean88888]

I'm sorry for the length of this. I made an honest effort to use the correct terms. If I errored please correct me so that I have the correct information.

I'm glad I found this post. I'm in the process of educating myself right now and have been searching for a thread that was active and had a topic that was appropriete and near the level of eductation I'm at. Unfortunatly I'm very hands on/visual learning based but fortunatly LaserSteve has some great video and DVDs. I pulled a noob move and jumped in feet first trying the AR process first (unless I state otherwise, ever batch I'm doing right now are micro batches and are done just for the purpose of learning the process and are not focused so much on truely recovering the gold, although that would obviously be the ideal result). That was a few weeks ago and I still have the jar sitting on a shelf waiting for me to learn what I need to learn to recitfy what ever I did wrong. Everything looked textbook until I started trying to precipitate and then it all went to hell. I ended up with a green solution so dark I'd almost call it black with no solids in it. This was preceeded by the event of when I initially added SMB I would get a black cloud that would slowly disappear (no need to reply to that, I understand now what was happening there). Anyway, to venture closer to the point I'm wandering toward...

The next batch I tried was the AP method with 50 grams of some really good looking gold fingers. I watched the 4 part video on LaserSteve's web site about a dozen times while I was waiting for the fingers to show up in the mail, took notes, and when I finally started the process I would watch the first video, then go and do that EXACTLY. When it was time for step 2, I would watch the next video, then go do THAT.. so forth and so on. What I ended up with was HCL+clorox that was a bit to heavy on clorox and diluted 3x with water. I read that heat would be a way to fix the problem of to much clorox, but I was hesitant to add another variable because I would then have to consider an additional eliment if the end result ended in failure. Instead of adding heat, I waited about 36 hours. At that point I noticed that the top of the fluid looked like someone had taken VERY fine gold glitter and sprinkled it across the top. I figured that since the clorox was eveporating from the top, the gold was litterally forming one VERY SMALL particulate at a time as the solution became less and less able to hold the gold in solution. After 2.5 days the solution was about half an inch shorter than it had been, and there was a black ring around the container as well as black at the bottom. (YAY!)

This, (I'm assuming) is the gold I'm looking for. I had taken several samples during this time and tested with stanous cloride and during these tests I began wondering what exactly was going on during these tests. The black/brown clouds I was getting on my plastic tablespoon looked a lot like the black cloud I had seen in my first (Aqua Regia) test. So I poured off about 2 ounces of this solution and added stanous until I got the black cloud I was looking for, (basically trying to see if I could use stanous as a precipitant). Since I'm unsure if the black is actually gold, or tin, or a mix of the 2 or some other material I have yet to learn about I ran this test to see what the result was. Being a noob, I didn't want to bombard the forum in a bunch of individual threads with questions I was sure had already been asked and answered. The 2 ounces of solution was diluted with water and repeatedly ran through coffee filters until the end result is now about an 1/8th of a gram of black powder. The fluid is no longer testing positive for gold so I'm certain that I've either A) extracted the gold (and possibly a bunch of other stuff) or B) diluted the solution to the point that I can no longer tell if it's turning color. Ok, we're a bit closer to the heart of what I'm getting at, sorry for all the backround info, but I want to try and paint a clear picture of what I've been doing and seeing.

As an additional side experiment (because I couldn't find any posts or threads addressing it) I tried an alternate meathod of processing fingers. I put a few grams of fingers in a seperate container and added HCL+clorox (please note, this was before I had learned my lesson about adding to much clorox). The idea was to see if I could skip AP and strip the gold off of the fingers directly into solution. I theorized that this may have a couple of issues but again, I didn't want to bother anyone with repeat questions and I do my best learning when I am trying to re-invent the wheel. One potential problem I saw was that this may strip the copper or other metals into solution along with the gold and I wasn't sure yet how I would go about seperating them. (I believe I've learned now that a repeated bath of just HCL should absorb copper and leave gold, but again, I'm not sure if there would be other metals that I would still be leaving behind even though I would get the copper). This solution took about 18 hours to completely strip the fingers and then tested positive for gold. After letting it set for almost 3 days now, and diluting with water, I tried adding SMB but as far as precipitation I got zero visable results. I will continue to wait and see on that.

I also have learned how to strip solder mask off circuit boards. The first thing I wonder is what is bonding the trace gold to the fiber board. Now that the solder mask is removed, would the AP method be appropriete? (YAY! My first question mark in a post! :mrgreen: ) I would like to stay away from AR, so would making a batch of hcl+clorox be a workable solution for circuit boards now that the solder mask is removed? I have not tried reverse electroplating yet, but I have watched those videos several times and will hopefully be able to order the needed materials on next payday. I'm betting that reverse electroplating is not viable with fiber board since it wont conduct electricity. So I guess part of what I'm asking for help understanding is this: Other than AR (which seems to be able to process any type of escrap as long as it's properly prepared before hand) is the AP method used in combination with hcl+clorox and hcl baths the next best "all purpose" method? I'm asking because if theres a better way I haven't heard of yet I would like to start studying that as well. If theres not a better way then I would like to be able to focus most of my time on teaching myself the skills needed to perfect this process.

Right now my impression is this: For processing fingers, the AP method is the overall best way. For processing pins and/or circuit boards, a bath of hcl+clorox is what I imagine to be the best way. (By 'best' I mean safest and easiest to execute, not nessessarily the most cost effective or fastest or have the highest recovery rate). I have yet to consider processing jewerly but to take a stab I'm thinking either reverse electroplating or (unfortunatly) AR. I don't plan on trying jewerly for some time though as it seems that (at least on ebay) even the scrap jewelry is selling for more than it's worth.

I'm sorry for the extremely long post. I promise to keep them shorter in the future. I'm glad I'm finally to the point where I've learned enough to start learning...if ya know what I mean. Before I didn't even know what questions to ask, but (as is the standing advice) I took the time to read...and read...and read, and do small batches simply for the sake of learning and not with the distraction of dollar signs in my eyes (which can lead to frustration and flushing things down the drain). I would really appreciate any input. What I'm hoping for (and know isn't true) is that I could just throw every type of material in a batch of AP and have success. But with that out of the question, I'd really just like to know if I've got the overall correct impression of what type of process is good for which kind of material. Thanks in advance for the time anyone takes to read and reply.

PS: When using nitric acid to disolve silver, if you use table salt as the precipitant, will this prevent you from using this nitric acid in a batch of AR for gold?

 

[kuma]

As an additional side experiment (because I couldn't find any posts or threads addressing it) I tried an alternate meathod of processing fingers. I put a few grams of fingers in a seperate container and added HCL+clorox (please note, this was before I had learned my lesson about adding to much clorox). The idea was to see if I could skip AP and strip the gold off of the fingers directly into solution. I theorized that this may have a couple of issues but again, I didn't want to bother anyone with repeat questions and I do my best learning when I am trying to re-invent the wheel. One potential problem I saw was that this may strip the copper or other metals into solution along with the gold and I wasn't sure yet how I would go about seperating them. (I believe I've learned now that a repeated bath of just HCL should absorb copper and leave gold, but again, I'm not sure if there would be other metals that I would still be leaving behind even though I would get the copper). This solution took about 18 hours to completely strip the fingers and then tested positive for gold. After letting it set for almost 3 days now, and diluting with water, I tried adding SMB but as far as precipitation I got zero visable results. I will continue to wait and see on that.

Hi Jason , welcome to the forum!
First , please let me point out that I am a noob here , so please don't take anything that I say as 'gospel'! :mrgreen:
I believe that the whole point of the AP process isn't so much about recovery of gold foils , as it is about the removal of base metals (in this case copper) , much like using Nitric to remove base metals before moving on to AR.
I don't believe that moving straight on to Chlorox will save you any time , and certainly isn't likley to help with the purity of your final product.
You theorized that this may have a couple of issues , I think that your theory would be correct in this case.
If your plan is to refine aswell as recover your gold , I think the idea is to remove as much of (if not ALL) base metals before disolving your gold in the next step.
Skipping the AP step only ensures that you have to remove base metals further down the line , which isn't speeding things up and will probably only cause complications.
If there really is any shortcuts in all of this , the pro's are keeping it quiet!
You mention re-inventing the wheel , I think that the stance around here is that countless chemists / metalurgists ect. have spent many years developing and refining (excuse the pun) the methods used in the forum for the recovery and refining of P.M.'s , and that we would be better off following known practices that are known to work.
It's the old 'if it aint broke don't fix it' chestnut , lol
If I'm wrong in anyway I will be told , I can assure you!
Wishing you the very best with it and sending kind regards ,
Chris

 

[travis86]

simply for the sake of learning and not with the distraction of dollar signs in my eyes (which can lead to frustration and flushing things down the drain).

Are you taking stabs at me? Who said I had dollar signs in my eyes?

 

[dtectr]

The only process I know of to selectively and effectively strip gold plating is with cyanide, outside the parameters most of us work in.

We have a thread where several of us have experimented with various ways to passively strip gold, devoted mainly to the use of iodine, but the processes are incomplete and the results unsatisfying. We simply need someone with more experience in getting this to work to share, and if they're out there doing it, they aren't talking.

Based on the reactivity series of metals (a link is found either under guided tour link on lazersteve's signature line or as a document on his website), as long as base metals higher up on the list are present, some of your gold will cement on those, so you really wind up fighting yourself all around the yard (or workshop, garage, etc.) without full recovery.

And re: butcher's typing (how did that get to be a big deal? :roll: :lol: ) He has stated in the past that he is not a fast typist, (he hunts and pecks like I do) so he puts a lot of work and thought into a response. His broad knowledge and experience make his advice valuable, gem-like; so take the time to try to understand and absorb what he recommends with respect.

 

[eeTHr]

jason---

It helps to keep in mind that there are two major steps to arriving at pure gold, which are, 1.) Recovery, and 2.) Refining. Trying to combine these two doesn't work, for various reasons, which will become obvious to you as you go along.

Both recovery and refining of gold consist of separating it from other materials.

Each of these two major steps has their own goal. Very basically speaking, these are---

Recovery will result in gold with some contaminants.

Refining will result in pure gold.

For the home eScrapper, you can more accurately estimate how pure your final product is, if you refine your recovered gold. There are ways to determine this during the refining process, and during the proces of melting it into buttons or casting bars. If you know fairly accurately how much gold you have in a specific lot, it's easier to know if you are giving, and getting, a fair deal when selling.

Pertaining to eScrap---

For the recovery process, outside of electrolysis, the method is to dissolve the base metals, leaving the gold intact in metalic form.

In refining, the method is the opposite. That is, to dissolve the gold. The gold is then selectively precipitated from the solution, leaving any (hopefully small amounts of) base metals in solution form.

Solutions and solids can be separated by letting the solids settle to the bottom of the container, then decanting the solution into another container.

Filtering when decanting is usually avoided if the solid portion is gold, because fine particles of gold get imbeded into the filter material, and filters with imbeded gold particles are saved up, to be processed later, for which there are a couple different methods. But either way, it's an extra step.

For recovery, the solids are usually the metalic gold and sometimes plastic particles.

With refining however, there are actually two steps in this regard.

A.) Dissolve the gold into solution, then pour off that gold bearing solution. In this case use a filter, because the gold is in solution, and only the unwanted stuff remains in the filter. Then after the gold solution has all passed through the filter, you follow it with some water from a squirt bottle to rinse the last of the solution through the filter paper (without diluting the solution more than the recommended amount for precipitation).

The second refining step is B.) Selective precipitation. After precipitation, and after complete settling of the gold particles, decant the solution without the filter, for reasons mentioned above.

To reach a high purity of your gold, there are many more steps in refining, but these are just fundamentals to keep in mind, overall. With so much information about it, it's easy to get things jumbled up at first. I know that I did. And I am by no means an expert yet.

There are other precious metals (PMs) in eScrap besides gold, and there are additional steps to be taken to test for, preserve, and recover these, if they are present in enough quantity to be of interest to you (and probably will be, eventually).

This is where Hoke's book comes in, and searching this forum.

When a person has read up on what he intends to do, yet still has some question about certain steps which may be unclear, I don't think anybody here has any qualms at all about helping people with those.

 

[jasondean88888]

simply for the sake of learning and not with the distraction of dollar signs in my eyes (which can lead to frustration and flushing things down the drain).

Are you taking stabs at me? Who said I had dollar signs in my eyes?

I wasn't trying to be pettie or mean I'm sorry if it came across that way. The dollar sign referance was mostly for me and the fact that I was a little proud of the fact that I had taken a much longer view of this overall process than I do of most new hobbies or projects I start. I normally expect instant (or at least some) success on any new venture or idea I have and the fact that I am ok with making a few (and most probably a lot) of mistakes is kind of a big deal for me. I could normally have gotten very frustrated with any failure in the begining and very probably done something like you did. Scrapping a whole batch and starting over. However, as I expect is the case with many groups of friends, any time one of us can we take the opportunity to poke fun of each other, and if flushing $40 or $60 worth of gold down the drain isn't something worth getting a little ribbing over, I'm not sure what is. So, yes, I WAS poking a little fun, but it wasn't intended in a mean spirited way. Again, sorry if thats how it came across. Hopefully another noob can identify with this post and can take a little something from it.

 

[travis86]

O ok I see now. Im almost to the clorox phase of my second attempt. I did a batch twice the size of the first one. Everything seems to be doing alot better this time around. I look forward to your first button and I hope within the next week I wiill have my first button. I just need to remember to order some melting dishes from Lazer Steve.