Copper Recovery

[SilverNitrate]

Copper is a wonderful material, It can drop gold from an auqa regia solution and as well as drop silver from a nitric acid solution. So what about dropping copper?

I used to simply poured this down the drain, but didn't realize that it could actually be corroding the steel pipes. So why not recover Copper with steel... so thats what I do. Iron is very cheap and abundant, some rusty old plumbing pipes and dumbbels will do the job quite well.
Zinc can do it too, but not so available and aluminum don't work on the copper nitrate also you'll create nasty aluminate jellies.

The copper you recover may easily be dried then later sold to scraps dealer.

 

[Noxx]

The copper you recover may easily be dried then later sold to scraps dealer.

Hmmm, I'm not sure about this. Never heard of any scrap yards taking scrap copper in powder form coming from acidic solutions...

 

[SilverNitrate]

The copper you recover may easily be dried then later sold to scraps dealer.

Hmmm, I'm not sure about this. Never heard of any scrap yards taking scrap copper in powder form coming from acidic solutions...

I had in mind those who were perhaps hoarding pre-1982 US cents for their copper. And that some time in the distant future copper would be precious enough to sell small quantities for very little fees.

 

[Harold_V]

Copper is a wonderful material, It can drop gold from an auqa regia solution and as well as drop silver from a nitric acid solution. So what about dropping copper?

I used to simply poured this down the drain, but didn't realize that it could actually be corroding the steel pipes.

If your community has a sewage disposal system, you'd best hope they never get wind of your stupid trick of pouring copper nitrate down the drain. All of their processing equipment was seriously compromised by your actions. Copper is readily precipitated on iron (steel), destroying it in the process. Pipes are a concern, but just the tip of the iceberg.

So why not recover Copper with steel... so thats what I do. Iron is very cheap and abundant, some rusty old plumbing pipes and dumbbels will do the job quite well.

The copper you recover may easily be dried then later sold to scraps dealer.

I wish you luck. I sent two 55 gallon drums of precipitated copper to the landfill when I couldn't find any takers, even for free. Bear in mind, I lived in the same valley as Kennecott Copper Corp., a firm that runs a precipitation plant in Copperton, in the mouth of what used to be Bingham Canyon (it is now a hole in the ground, having been processed for values).

Unless you have a cupola, there isn't a way to economically melt the recovered copper. Fluxing will destroy crucibles too quickly, so you're most likely going to find yourself in the same position I found myself, which is to discard the copper after precipitation. At least you won't be doing damage as you were before.

May I recommend to you that you try to recover the copper electrolytically. If you are successful, you may be able to melt it for use in recovering silver. Using it to recover gold is not a good idea, not unless you're recovering gold from a batch that has problems and you intend to re-refine the gold and precipitate it with a selective precipitant. No one uses copper to recover gold otherwise, because it is NOT selective. It is far from a clever idea.

Harold

 

[Froggy]

"stupid trick" "far from a clever idea".. a little grumpy this morning Harold? Thats why the guy asked, to get a better idea of what to do with it, your suggestions and knowledge are much appreciated but please,please lighten up! Smile. its a beutiful Easter Sunday, at least here... :shock:

 

[SilverNitrate]

If your community has a sewage disposal system, you'd best hope they never get wind of your stupid trick of pouring copper nitrate down the drain. All of their processing equipment was seriously compromised by your actions. Copper is readily precipitated on iron (steel), destroying it in the process. Pipes are a concern, but just the tip of the iceberg.

I wish you luck. I sent two 55 gallon drums of precipitated copper to the landfill when I couldn't find any takers, even for free. Bear in mind, I lived in the same valley as Kennecott Copper Corp., a firm that runs a precipitation plant in Copperton, in the mouth of what used to be Bingham Canyon (it is now a hole in the ground, having been processed for values).
Harold

Ok, that was years ago before i had internet and learned of some techniques for handling the copper. I don't have the means for melting copper. If I am able to accumulate several pounds of copper precip, and not able to melt it, the powders could be fused into ingots on a break press, (i used to do this to my gold powders to reduce volume)
Or the powders can be runned in a ball mill then sold later on eBay... they'll sure to buy it there!

 

[Harold_V]

"stupid trick" "far from a clever idea".. a little grumpy this morning Harold? Thats why the guy asked, to get a better idea of what to do with it,

Wrong!

No questions were asked-----but information was provided that is not in the best interest of the readers. Part of my purpose in being here is to keep others out of trouble, not to pat them on the head when they post stupid ideas. When bad processes are posted, they should receive a response that sends up a red flag for others---so they don't pick up on anything that is not in their best interest, or that of the environment.

Harold

 

[Harold_V]

I don't have the means for melting copper. If I am able to accumulate several pounds of copper precip, and not able to melt it, the powders could be fused into ingots on a break press, (i used to do this to my gold powders to reduce volume)

One of the realities of recovering copper with steel is that it isn't very clean after recovery. That's why I alluded to melting with a cupola. I've been down this road enough to understand the ramifications. I melted several pounds of copper, which was used for silver recovery. The fluxing was tough on my crucible---cutting short it's life by a large margin. There's also the time involved, along with the cost of flux and energy. I found it was cheaper to discard the copper than to attempt recovery. Keep in mind, I needed copper regularly----but it was cheaper to discard it and replace with clean copper than it was to a recover.

In order for the material to be reasonably clean, you'd have to do a wash of sorts. I can see where you might be successful using HCl, but a wash in sulfuric would likely be more successful, and not dissolve copper, just the oxides. That equates to money and time, making the yield far less valuable. How much time and money are you willing to spend on what amounts to a few dollars worth of copper?

I'm not trying to be unreasonable----just trying to explain the realities of the situation.

Keep in mind, my comments and experiences revolve around a time when copper scrap was fetching less than 50¢/pound, and was only a little more than $1/lb. at the refinery. With today's higher value, could be it can be processed at a profit, although I have my doubts. Just as the price of copper has risen, so too has the cost of energy and supplies. You'd still be working for a few pennies, at best.

Or the powders can be runned in a ball mill then sold later on eBay... they'll sure to buy it there!

P.T. Barnum said it best. There's a sucker born every minute. It's possible you'd sell to such people, but they wouldn't receive much for their money.

Running the material in a ball mill will alter it's appearance, but will do nothing to purify the metal-----so it won't look much like copper unless you've washed it very well with acid. If you do that, there's likely no need for the ball mill.

Assuming you got it clean enough, and you had a press at your disposal that was large enough to form reasonably sized pieces, I can see where you might use what is akin to powdered metal technology to fuse the material into bits that might be accepted by scrap yards. Problem is, the cost of equipment and time spent forming the pieces would far exceed the value of the copper. Unless you can do this on a grand scale, it's a losing proposition.

If I'm wrong, and I certainly can be, it would be a service to all the people that read this forum if you can post a process that is successful.

Harold

 

[Palladium]

Their are companies out their who sell recovery equipment to recover copper from the spent solutions of etching and plating baths. This is because of the profifit and cost of disposal. This copper has been recovered and sold to copper refineries for years. Yes they do buy it.

Wonder why all these compaines make these products if you can't sell or use the recovered materials. Hummmm

Plating from a chlorine solution takes less electrons (half i think ) than plating from a solution of say H2So4.

As far as the comments of you an froggy > I would say that the reason we are all here is to learn. And Yes that includes new systems and methods of recovery. I to appreciate your wisdom harold, But things have come a long way since you stopped refining ( 1994 ) What's that 14 years ago. And that book your pushing though it is knowledgable and proven is like what eons old.

The point is if we are not trying new processes then science is not progressing it's standing still. That's what i like about this forum and always have. Plesae stop opressing free thought.

 

[lazersteve]

Pd,

Harold and Sodium Nitrate are talking about copper precipitated from refining solutions. This copper sludge is typically loaded with other impurities.

The companies you are referring to are for the most part printed circuit board manufactures and the like. The copper from their solutions is more easily purified than refining wastes. They also produce and sell very large quantities of it at a time, this is why the copper precipitation machines are selling. Plus they greatly reduce the waste products which cost the pcb manufactures lots of money to store and dispose of. They are making money because they are saving money in their work flow. It's cheaper for them to buy the machine and regenerate the copper than it is to pay the storage and disposal fees for their spent solutions.

A home refiner does not have the luxury of large quantities or high purity copper. Trust me I've produced quite a bit of the copper sludge myself. Harold is dead on, the stuff varies greatly in purity, very hard to clean up, time consuming to work, and near impossible to melt in any sizable quantity. It's not profitable on the hobby scale.

As for your comments about the Hoke book, I feel you must have not read the book. I own a copy and it has shed more than it's money worth of light on my refining. I find myself referring to it on a daily basis.

I'm all for new developments and discoveries thru good science, but without the fundamentals no one can expect to make an improvement in any scientific field. If you discount the work of the past great scientist due to the age of the material you are loosing the wisdom of the ages which has been passed on forever. New discoveries are seldom, if ever, made without standing on the shoulders of the giants of the past. Hoke's book was a monumental work in refining education. Her work is referred to in many other refining texts I have read. Some things are timeless and Hoke is one of them. The methods she presents are easy to understand and straight forward in approach. Her methods work even today.

In short you can not skip the fundamentals and expect to make a leap forward in the technology of refining. Part of this learning process is learning good habits and that's what you can get from Hoke. You can also learn the differences in testing the various solutions as well as disposal techniques. Solution and substance identification makes up a good part of the science of refining. Without it you will be as lost as a blind man. Hoke teaches this technique also.

Steve

 

[Palladium]

Good point Steve,
I understand what you are trying to say. The home refiner.
What i am referring to is that some of these people have the means to try and recover other material. Their are members that visit this forum who have a vast supply of this material and have the means for generating this type of waste . Some of them may be trying to come up with some off the wall process that might be somewhat feasible given their parameters. I'm sure if someone generated enough of this material their is some one some where who will buy it. Has to be, it's cheaper than getting it from the ground when you recycle it. If they can get the metals out for value they don't care if it came from refining gold, or from cooking pancakes. If the value is there it's there. Only question is how much it cost to recover it. Like what people do here with gold.

Are we to assume that the forum only supports the small refiner or recyclers ? Can we not have an open discussion about technology without being scalded and told that we have to do it the approved way. And as far as hoke. I have read some of her book and agree it is a great book for the novice. But she is not the god given word on it either. And having it shoved down you throat is more like a religion than an open mind that can explore new ways in technology. I would think if i wanted new technology to be presented i would much rather have it done in a open format such as this forum, that to have it introduced in a corporate environment where profit is the main driving course.

If we follow those rules of though then this forum would have never been created, Your work around processes would have never been introduced to the world. Which by the way, Great work Steve. and we would all be going by the Ar process which has been around since it's discovery. We would still be at the mercy of others who have the knowledge, but yet refuse to share that knowledge except that it benefit their just cause or pocket books.

Instead we have ventured into new territory and went against the status quot. This is what has progressed both the knowledge and the understanding of the refining and recovery field to the average Joe ( no pun )

I've only been here a short time and don't post much, hell don't know much but i can see it.
Anyway thanks, I'll just sit back and raise my hand for now on.

 

[SilverNitrate]

Not to be the creater of a great debate, But yes the forum should be about new ideas and thoughts in the area of refining. Then there are people like me who are not seeking to create 4 9's gold. There may be rhodium and PGMs in the gold we collect but feel as if they aren't much in quantity to be bothered with. My bout with MidStates Recycling was to employ a rudimentary refining technique as for example they do not get credit for the silver content of jewelry gold. I'm happy to take karat gold to 95% or better just to remove the few dollars of silver. These scrap dealers only melt down, assay the gold content, then sell the bars as they are based on gold only.
As for my OP, the main objective is to remove copper from solution before pouring it down the drain: flushing down the toilet: tossing out in the garbage, or any means of disposing it. Many here I'm sure have poured their copper away (as I have in the past). I didn't have the luxury of owning Hoke's book, or other feasible means of instruction on the matter. True the copper will have levels of nickel, manganese, zinc, silver, iron and amongst others But having mainly iron oxides, and sodium nitrate/chloride is far better than dumping silver chloride and other heavy metal constituents. Mainly copper in the solid form could indeed be pressed into blocks or rods and sold for perhaps $1.50/lb to your local aluminum can recycler.

 

[lazersteve]

Pd,

I feel the forum should be open to all new ideas, just like you said, I've produced a lot of off the beaten path methods myself. Look at what DallasGoldBug has brought to the table. It's a new angle on an old idea. Scavengers salt cell variations are another excellent example of methods that have turned out to be really good ideas. There's nothing wrong with free and open speaking about any subject no matter the scale or size of your operation. We all have our unique points of view.

The forum is not meant just for the hobbyist, but I would venture to say that the majority of our members are relatively new to refining. Some are old time prospectors, others are young lads just starting out. With such a broad audience it's dangerous to make generalized statements concerning methods new or old. If I may speak for Harold, I feel he is trying to err on the side of caution by keeping the acolytes on the straight and narrow until they have earned their wings so to speak. He's not advocating that everyone use AR or even the methods that he or even Hoke uses. Instead he may just be trying to save them all a lot of wasted money and time. Where else can an individual refiner get advice from someone that has been there in the real world of refining? There's nothing worse than to be just starting out and screw it up to the point where you lose interest in refining as a whole.

The more advanced refiners you are speaking of have already learned these hard knocks and should be wise enough to mix what they already know with the advice of the others to define their own unique methods. Perhaps they will gain nothing and maintain there current methods, perhaps they will learn something new. I can only hope they will share what they have learned with everyone here.

It would be a great loss to every member here if someone with advanced knowledge were stifled to post a new and unique method by the 'status quo' as you put it. Instead, it is my hope that we can all get along and help one another to be better at what it is we all love. It may be best stated that every post should be taken in it's own context. Some may be for the advanced or large refinery, while other information, like owning a copy of Hokes, is a fundamental to learning the ropes of refining.

From my own personal experience it takes several ideas to get the right angle on any method. Two heads are better than one.

With that said feel free to post as you wish. Keep in mind that your audience is varied, from the ultra novice to the large refiner. Keep it clean and polite. Above all have a good time and share what you have learned.

Steve

 

[Palladium]

Thanks Steven. :wink:

I hope you don't think i was trying to be difficult. :?

 

[Harold_V]

Their are companies out their who sell recovery equipment to recover copper from the spent solutions of etching and plating baths. This is because of the profifit and cost of disposal. This copper has been recovered and sold to copper refineries for years. Yes they do buy it.

Thus my comments about researching the recovery of copper wastes by electrolytic methods.

Plating from a chlorine solution takes less electrons (half i think ) than plating from a solution of say H2So4.

Yes, and you can travel much faster by air than by land, but that has nothing to do with the point at hand. Refiners are stuck with copper nitrate----and must deal with it accordingly. They don't even have the luxury of copper sulfate. Remember-----the purpose is to refine gold----not copper. Copper is a byproduct, and does not warrant a huge investment so a few dollars can be recovered.

It took me 20 years to accumulate two 55 gallon drums of copper sludge. Market value at the time may have been $1,000, assuming it was clean copper. It wasn't. How much time and money do you think I should have invested in the waste material in order to get it to market?

I to appreciate your wisdom harold, But things have come a long way since you stopped refining ( 1994 ) What's that 14 years ago. And that book your pushing though it is knowledgable and proven is like what eons old.

Yes, I realize it's eons old. And still viable.

You may be lost in this subject, but I am not. You apparently missed that point. It's still viable, and not to be ignored. It is the basis of gold refining, regardless of your approach. Without the knowledge in that book, you will wander aimlessly, never quite understanding the basic principles of refining. If you intend to refine. you'll learn it one way or the other if you intend to succeed. If you don't think it should come from Hoke's book, please provide an alternative source.

You're likely no kid. Am I to assume you've worn out your usefulness because you are no longer 16?

Every day I see questions asked on this board that are nothing more than the basics----an obvious sign that the reader in question doesn't have a clue----yet refuses to spend a few dollars to be enlightened, choosing instead to plunge in over his/her head, then turn to those of us that have experience to bail them out when their efforts go south.

How many hours of each day do you think I should be contributing to the betterment of others, repeating the same basic information over and over? That's what the last year has been like.

Remember----I get nothing for my contributions---they are a service to the readers. I may not get paid, but I refuse to get insulted when I'm giving of my time. I hope you get my drift.

The point is if we are not trying new processes then science is not progressing it's standing still. That's what i like about this forum and always have. Plesae stop opressing free thought.

Nonsense! Get a grip and come to terms with the idea that if you don't understand the basics, you, nor anyone else, will contribute to progress. If readers don't have a clue how to test for gold, or how to recover it, I'd be interested in hearing how they're going to make revolutionary changes in the chemistry of gold. We have professional people that work in chemistry on a daily basis----and I don't hear them touting revolutionary processes, yet you tell me that the common man is on the threshold of something new? Show me.

Nothing is new in gold-----it was all done 100 years ago by Rose.

My purpose here has been clearly stated. It's to help others learn the art of refining gold-----it is not to endorse methods that are less than satisfactory. Part of my responsibility is to insure that readers don't get mixed signals-----picking up practices that are not proper, or not in their best interest. A good example of that is precipitating gold with copper. Why not aluminum, or steel? Both of them work. Zinc works, too.

There are many substances that can be used to precipitate gold without adding impurities to the final product that detract from its quality. Copper is not amongst them. Someone should speak out so others don't use the process, then bother me with their questions of why their gold isn't pure.

Buy Hoke's book and read it so you'll understand the wisdom of my posts. Or, stumble along aimlessly, but in that case, please do not turn to me for advice when your efforts don't bear fruit.

Harold

 

[Harold_V]

Mainly copper in the solid form could indeed be pressed into blocks or rods and sold for perhaps $1.50/lb to your local aluminum can recycler.

Yes, you said that before.

Again, how do you propose the common man press this material into blocks? How much time should an individual spend on $5 worth of copper to get it to market?

If enough material is created, there are good and viable methods of getting it to the market place, both as scrap, or even as electrolytic pure. That's not where the average home refiner is likely to find him/her self. You're dealing with, at most, a hundred pounds of copper sludge over long periods of time. Assuming it was pure, and solid, it might be worth $200 on today's market. How much time are you willing to spend to get it to that point? How much money are you willing to expend getting it to that point?

Some things are simply beyond the scope of the home refiner. If you enjoy doing such things and are willing to swap dollars for other dollars, by all means, do as you suggest. Buying or building the necessary equipment in order to process such small amounts of waste makes no sense-----nor does dedicating the time to the project. You are, financially, far better off to extract the heavy metals, then dispose of them properly. The time you'd waste screwing around with a few dollars worth of copper could be spent recovering gold instead. One of them has the potential to yield better rewards. Now we have to decide which one it is.

Harold

 

[Anonymous]

I would think that processing stuff like computers and electronic scrap the value of the base metals like copper actually is more than the gold content. Many years ago you may not have been able to sell stuch stuff as copper dust but I would think that you could find someone willing in todays market to purchase this copper. I would also point out that the solder contains tin as well as lead. I get 5.00 a lb for solder at my scrap buyer and 3.00 a lb for copper. I am new to trying to even get the gold from stuff as I use to just scrap it for the copper now after finding this forum I have been processing to recover gold and silver which add to my
yield.

 

[Harold_V]

Don't misunderstand my comments. I'm all in favor of recycling the traces of base metals. The problem is that it's not all that easily accomplished. Major refiners pay for copper when there's enough, but they also have the necessary equipment to deal with it economically, plus a ready market for the recovered materials. The home refiner isn't in that position, and isn't likely to be, due in part to the limited amount of metal recovered.

The point I've made is that there is no market for copper that is recovered as sludge. Spending time and money on the material in order get it to market is a losing proposition. If it is melted, the cost of doing so will exceed the value. If it is washed well enough to eliminate traces of contamination, then melted, you are still in the same position, one whereby you have invested more time and money than the value of the copper. It makes more sense to discard the recovered copper than to spin your wheels screwing around with it.

If any of the readers can come up with a source that is willing to buy the material, they should post the information here for all to see. That way the recovered copper could be kept in the supply pipeline.

I found it most distasteful to send the two barrels of copper to the land fill, but I had no other option.

Harold

 

[Anonymous]

I offered to buy copper but no one took me up on it. I have a waste oil fired burner and get the oil for free it only cost me time and a few cents for electricity to run the burner. I use fire clay to line a steel crucible to melt mixed copper alloys which keeps the steel from further contaminating the melt and the clay is cheap.

I currently melt fine wire from transformers and stuff netting a much higher price. The place I sell it to has some kind of sparking gun and they can tell the metal content in just a few minutes
even give you a print out. Scrap yards are really advancing from what I can tell and they even seem to be more honest in thier dealings.

 

[lazersteve]

James,

What are you paying for the copper sludge and how pure and dry must it be before you'll buy it? Do you buy copper oxides and chlorides also?

Steve