Copper Recovery

[Anonymous]

They would have to be dry to save on shipping, oxides do not pose much of a problem I however do not have the desire to mess with clorides.
I know that most of the processors on the forum have small quantities
and offered as a recorse to prevent sending them to the landfill or dumping them down the drain. Price would be very negotiable depending on quanity and quality. I am open to speak with anyone and would reply to anyone that send me PM on the subject.

 

[Swamp Fox]

Hi all, this is my first time posting, and even my first time visiting this forum. I am interested in everything everyone has been saying and hope I don't offend with anything I might say here. From what I've seen on the forums, Steve, Pd, and Harold are all very distinguished on this site and I have read many things that have shown them to have plenty of knowledge of refining.

I will say it here and now that I am 20 years old and a full time student and chemistry major. I understand some of the implications of the different disposal methods and refining methods listed in this forum (though I can't help but laugh at the idea of someone burning mercury when it isn't even used in most commercial thermometers today because of it's toxicity).

A quote from Harold: "How much time and money are you willing to spend on what amounts to a few dollars worth of copper?"

I don't know how much it would cost, having not done anything with refining yet, to go through the process of removing copper. I do understand and sympathize with someone wanting to reduce the impact they would create with dumping the copper, and if it doesn't cost more to remove the copper than it would to buy it I can see removing it to cut down on costs/impact. If the only thing you are losing is time, and refining is truly a hobby, then you really aren't losing much by doing this if you truly enjoy refining and take this to be just another part of the process.

Harold, I think I remember you posting a link in another thread that went to a site where people can buy the Hoke book. I can't remember which thread it was and don't have the link myself, but I would greatly appreciate it if you could post it again. I know that I would like to get a copy of this book, and I'm sure others would too. It might also be a good idea, since it is such a storehouse of refining knowledge that you have referred to multiple times, to include it here so that those of us who don't have a copy can read it.

A quote from Steve "In short you can not skip the fundamentals and expect to make a leap forward in the technology of refining. Part of this learning process is learning good habits and that's what you can get from Hoke. You can also learn the differences in testing the various solutions as well as disposal techniques. Solution and substance identification makes up a good part of the science of refining. Without it you will be as lost as a blind man. Hoke teaches this technique also."

A quote from Harold "Nonsense! Get a grip and come to terms with the idea that if you don't understand the basics, you, nor anyone else, will contribute to progress. If readers don't have a clue how to test for gold, or how to recover it, I'd be interested in hearing how they're going to make revolutionary changes in the chemistry of gold. We have professional people that work in chemistry on a daily basis----and I don't hear them touting revolutionary processes, yet you tell me that the common man is on the threshold of something new? Show me."

As a chemist I can say that I agree with Steve's statement, but i wouldn't limit it to just refining. I definitely have seen plenty of evidence that you need the fundamentals and understanding of those who have come before you (that is the whole reason and purpose of a university education, passing on the knowledge that has come before you). But I'm sorry Harold, it is possible to go forward and find something new and worthwhile without all of the basics, though I will admit that it is infinitely easier to see and understand what you are doing with all of the basics. As you have stated though, it is the people who blaze ahead without waiting to listen to their guide that land in the quicksand pits and leopard dens, requiring those who have gone before them, or even the guide they ignored, to bail them out.

When I was in Boy Scouts preparing for a backpacking trip with another troop there was one person in the group who everyone else wanted as the "leader" or "guy in front". On our first time out hiking he and one other guy just took off without looking back. The rest of us went at our own pace and stopped after a half hour. We sat down and waited. It took another half hour for them to get back to us and they were raging mad. Had they not been together we would have sent someone ahead to stop them. One of the adults in the group knew the trail said that they couldn't get into much trouble yet. When they came back the whole group got lectured on what it means to be a leader and a follower. We were told that the leaders job is to do his/ her best to make sure everyone is doing alright and if someone has a problem the leader is supposed to address that problem. The follower's job is to make sure that (s)he has all of the knowledge and information they could possibly need, to ask questions of those who may know what they need, and make sure they are doing everything in their power to judge themselves and how they are doing. And it is the job of both the leader and the follower to make sure that the group stays together and works well together.

This story and idea I think can be applied to any situation. I know that there will be posts that upset me, just as some posts have upset Harold, myself, and even Steve to the point that Steve felt he had to defend Harold. I may be truly putting my foot in it this time, but as with the hiking analogy I made in the last paragraph I think that everyone would agree that this site is here to help the average and not average refiner. It took those guys who ran ahead of everyone an hour to realize something was wrong. Sometimes people need to make mistakes in order to see that they need to back up and slow down. But I also think that everyone can agree that things would work much better without any one person picking on another person. I think that this site is set upon the open source foundations that make it a great site. Those foundations though also open it up for easier attack by other people who can weaken the site without meaning to. If anyone on this site is jaded by comments directed at them or hurt by a comment and doesn't come back, then the site has lost a knowledge base. And it would be an even greater loss if it were a senior refiner who has alot of knowledge on the topic and is willing to share. things like what Froggy said:

"stupid trick" "far from a clever idea".. a little grumpy this morning Harold?

Can be very hurtful to all of us, and if it was unintentional then that is alright, as long as it is acknowledged.

I can look back at the most influential, envied, and respected people in my life, and of all of the people I can think of the best ones, the ones at the top of the list, were the ones who did their thing and when asked would share why they did what they did. Recycling is a good example. One of my high school teachers was always keeping her bottles and cans in her office and would leave with them at the end of the day, would even collect empty bottles and cans she found in her classroom before the students could throw them away. after the students started learning why she did that they gave her all of their bottles and pop cans. Learning will come, and knowledge will spread. the method is important, not only for the recipient but especially for the person passing that knowledge on. It only hurts you to get angry at a forum post and rage at it and spend alot of time on it. Why not just acknowledge it, if it was a hurtful comment aimed at you, mention it, and if nothing happens let it go. don't forget it necessarily. just don't obsess over it.

Harold, I think you have said more in praise to Hoke's book than anyone else on how it gives the necessary basics, and I know others like Steve have supported that. I have been looking all over this forum for a thread that will give step by step instructions or basics, and have seen many people start threads asking for such. But every time I found a thread that gave step by step instructions, it was not easy to follow what was going on because the person asking the question already had some background information, and the answer started from his/ her background knowledge and went forward.

The best way I can see to go around this problem would be for someone to start a thread on a process from the beginning, or start a thread and post a link to a place to buy Hoke's book with information telling them that the book gives necessary basics and methods for refining. If anyone does this it would help for the subject to reflect the contents.

Anyway... I think I have been ranting enough myself... I'm sorry if I have offended anyone.

I feel Steve said it best:

With that said feel free to post as you wish. Keep in mind that your audience is varied, from the ultra novice to the large refiner. Keep it clean and polite. Above all have a good time and share what you have learned.

javascript:emoticon('')
Very Happy

 

[skyline27]

Without a handful of knowledgable, experienced people who occasionaly quash dumb ideas, this site would be filled with dumb ideas and become completely useless. Everbody needs to be shot down every once in a while (especially if your idea is dangerous or destructive).

Point blank feedback is far more effective than gentle suggestions.

 

[Harold_V]

Without a handful of knowledgable, experienced people who occasionaly quash dumb ideas, this site would be filled with dumb ideas and become completely useless. Everbody needs to be shot down every once in a while (especially if your idea is dangerous or destructive).

Point blank feedback is far more effective than gentle suggestions.

Indeed! And I thank you for understanding why I post things as I do. The subject of refining is not one where idiotic notions should be subtly discussed. There are times when a wake-up call is in order. If readers feel I'm quashing creativity, perhaps they should explore their position. I'm speaking from years of experience----and relating that which I have learned the hard way.

One thing that few are taking into consideration is the fact that I am not an idle person with nothing to do. I dedicate a considerable amount of my time to this forum, all with no hope of a reward. I'm willing to do that until readers become abusive----at which time they are on their own.

I do not suffer fools gladly---a fact I wish to make well known. I am here to help those that have an agenda of learning to refine precious metals with which I am familiar. The processes I endorse and instruct work----and are, in a sense, timeless. They will fulfill the need for basic knowledge and allow the average person to progress to the point of being able to compete with major refiners in quality.

Those that desire to experiment are certainly welcome to do so, but it makes sense to me that they should know the basics of refining before embarking on improving processes known to work properly, particularly when they don't understand those very processes well enough to judge them appropriately. I find it troubling that a person that has no clue intends to make improvements. How would they know, even if they were successful?

Swamp Fox, I know and understand that people often lend information to the knowledge pool, and may not be well versed in a given area. One such person was the Australian doctor that linked helicobacter pylori to common ulcers. He was ridiculed and set aside by his peers, having discovered the link by doing research outside his chosen field-----but the fact remains that he was not some dolt with no education. He understood physiology and medicine, thus was able to make informed decisions. I expect that would be the case in refining metals. It's hardly something new, with almost all processes having been tried long ago, by Rose.

While common people have been known to come up with innovative concepts, I'm of the opinion that seldom does a person without a great deal of knowledge do so. Said another way, every person should walk before they attempt to run. That means learning the basics, so intelligent decisions can be concluded and applied. I have no faith in a person that can't refine, yet expects to make changes to something that is not understood.

Hoke's book is not just a novelty----it provides the basic information that will help anyone that has the desire to process values to understand the principles of refining. It is the one and only text on the market that will help an individual that has no chemical background. Even you, Swamp Fox---with your extended education----will learn things you can't imagine.

Most importantly, if frees up those of us that have experience so we can address problem areas instead of trying to teach the basics. I fully expect readers to meet me half way. I expect others that moderate do as well. They can do that by learning the basics.

Here's one source for Hoke's book:

http://www.gesswein.com/catalog/catalog.cfm?cat=12&sub=3&subsub=59&catalog=1&CFID=1471004&CFTOKEN=30985426

A recent report from a friend indicates they are out of stock, but should have books available in April. At this point, the book they offer is the least expensive available. It is a reprint, and contains all of the useful information that was contained in the original book.

A second source, thanks to GSP, is;

The Hoke book, "Refining Precious Metal Wastes," is still the definitive book for refining jewelry scrap, including the platinum group. When I first started in the business, it was my bible. It's been reprinted and is available here for $74. Scroll down - fifth from the bottom.
http://www.ipmi.org/publications/index_non.cfm

The book in question is written by C.M. Hoke.

While it is intended, primarily, for jewelry scrap, the principles remain unchanged. Do not judge the book by its title. The information contained within can be applied across the board for all sources of values.

Harold

 

[Swamp Fox]

Hello again. Thank you Harold, and you too Skyline. I don't think I managed to say what I was aiming for very well, but I think you both did a good job of hitting the nail on the head.

Thank you for posting the Hoke book links. I really appreciate it and I agree that people should meet you half way and try to learn the basics before they get started. I was trying to say that, though I do believe I got lost and lost everyone else in the stream of my writing.

While common people have been known to come up with innovative concepts, I'm of the opinion that seldom does a person without a great deal of knowledge do so. Said another way, every person should walk before they attempt to run. That means learning the basics, so intelligent decisions can be concluded and applied. I have no faith in a person that can't refine, yet expects to make changes to something that is not understood.

I agree with this totally, and don't think I was disagreeing with you here either.

Again, thanks for the Hoke book link.javascript:emoticon(':wink:')
Wink

 

[Swamp Fox]

Even you, Swamp Fox---with your extended education----will learn things you can't imagine.

I's also just like to say that I was not trying to toot a horn that I don't have, I was giving everyone the information they would need to take what i say at the value that it is worth.

I know that having not done any refining yet my opinions of such processes are non existent. I was not trying to insult you Harold or say that the little education I have in chemistry gives me any edge over the common man. I know that it doesn't, especially when that common man is someone who, like yourself, has many years of experience past mine.

Again, I'm sorry if I offended anyone, and I was especially not trying to offend you Harold. I hope you can accept my apology in this because I can't really explain it in any other way than saying I'm sorry.javascript:emoticon('')

 

[istari9]

I see copper in a different light .. IE If copper is involved in the manufacture of an item say a Floppy drive then I remove it from all locations and if need be unwind it and rewind it, into small balls of copper, this I place in a can and store until I have enough to sell. I save all small motors and windings from power supply’s and motherboards. These are also removed from their housings and saved for the future sale. In my past I have made at times large sums form these small endeavors. Last month I sold 9 boxes of HD's and #1common (wire with the plastic still intact no connectors) these are small boxes that had med equip in them. Any way I got $200.00 for the effort. This compared to the $12.50 I made on scrap steel well I am sure you can see the difference...

Ray

 

[Harold_V]

Even you, Swamp Fox---with your extended education----will learn things you can't imagine.

I's also just like to say that I was not trying to toot a horn that I don't have, I was giving everyone the information they would need to take what i say at the value that it is worth.

Ahh! A complete breakdown in understanding!

I took no offense. I am simply stating that even with an extensive education in chemistry, a person may not well understand the mechanics of refining. In my case, I clearly don't understand the chemical equations that explain the reactions, but I know the mechanics of refining quite well. I know what to do, and when to do it.

I have a step brother-in-law that is a professor of chemistry in one of the well known eastern (to me) universities. He commented, years ago, that he was lost in what I did, although he understood the chemistry involved. His field is catalysis.

I was not trying to insult you Harold or say that the little education I have in chemistry gives me any edge over the common man. I know that it doesn't, especially when that common man is someone who, like yourself, has many years of experience past mine.

I didn't interpret your comments thus, either. I was making reference to the idea that a common person -----any person-----is unlikely to revolutionize gold refining. It's an old art and has been well researched by very brilliant people (Sir T.K. Rose, for one), so there's not much that hasn't been tried. I realize there's room for expansion, but just like the gold that has been found and recovered to this point has been easy, so to is the knowledge that we embrace. Any new knowledge is likely to come from revolutionary thinking, from people with extraordinary skills and talents, and a solid, fundamental knowledge of chemistry and physics. I don't hold out much hope for the average guy to revolutionize gold processing.

Fact is, the "new" work-around methods being promoted here are anything but new----they are old, fundamental processes, likely used before commercially prepared acids were available. My hat's off to those that have done recent research and made the information available. I don't mean to belittle the process, or diminish, in any way, their effectiveness and usefulness. Quite the contrary.

I was especially not trying to offend you Harold. I hope you can accept my apology in this because I can't really explain it in any other way than saying I'm sorry.javascript:emoticon('')

No apology necessary! I took your words as those of a brilliant young man that has an opinion, based on good fundamentals. I respect your opinion, and your right to have one. I took no offense.

Now I want to preach to you. Stay with your education. I'll never cease to wonder where I might have gone had I had the drive to get educated.

Don't misunderstand my comments. I am not unhappy with the results of my life. I founded and ran two successful businesses, and made a decent living. I have a wonderful wife that has stood by my side for more than 30 years, and has been a good and faithful companion and soul mate.

I was in complete control of my life from the time I founded my first business, at the age of 28. I retired before I was 55, and have a comfortable life, although I am not wealthy. Still, I have those nagging questions of where I might have gone with an education. I may have had the courage to write a book about gold refining-----or perhaps machining, which was my main livelihood.

Harold

 

[Harold_V]

I see copper in a different light .. IE If copper is involved in the manufacture of an item say a Floppy drive then I remove it from all locations and if need be unwind it and rewind it, into small balls of copper, this I place in a can and store until I have enough to sell.

Heh!

You and I must be cut from the same bolt of cloth, Ray.

In the past three years, I've had two power supplies die in my computer. I do my own repairs, as long as they're basic and fundamental enough for me to diagnose the problem with no equipment (in both cases, the magic smoke that makes the power supplies work got out, so it was obvious where the problem was).

I dismantled both of the old power supplies and removed all the copper wire from the transformers and chokes, adding it to my supply of copper and copper based alloys. I intend to do casting in brass and bronze in the future, so any scrap that I can add to the kitty (which is now overflowing with a few hundred pounds of metal) is welcome.

Keeping this in line with refining-----if guys would store their incinerated filters and other low grade wastes, they'd be surprised at the values that would accumulate. If you save enough pennies, you soon have a dollar. :wink:

Harold

 

[istari9]

Amen Brother!

 

[Swamp Fox]

Now I want to preach to you. Stay with your education. I'll never cease to wonder where I might have gone had I had the drive to get educated.

Don't misunderstand my comments. I am not unhappy with the results of my life. I founded and ran two successful businesses, and made a decent living. I have a wonderful wife that has stood by my side for more than 30 years, and has been a good and faithful companion and soul mate.

I was in complete control of my life from the time I founded my first business, at the age of 28. I retired before I was 55, and have a comfortable life, although I am not wealthy. Still, I have those nagging questions of where I might have gone with an education. I may have had the courage to write a book about gold refining-----or perhaps machining, which was my main livelihood.

Thanks for the advice. I do know that what you have outlined is much of what I would like to know in my life: Make a decent living (being enough to get by on without being excessive) and have a wife or relationship as fulfilling as yours. If not that then at least a small group of true friends, I already know two or three people who I will consider the best of friends for the rest of my life, and who I trust feel the same for me. I don't think many people truly want more than that if they look deep enough.

I will definitely keep up the education though!!!! javascript:emoticon('')

 

[Harold_V]

at least a small group of true friends, I already know two or three people who I will consider the best of friends for the rest of my life, and who I trust feel the same for me. I don't think many people truly want more than that if they look deep enough.

In my early years of the machine shop I founded and operated, I did considerable sub-contract work from a larger shop in Salt Lake City. I lived in one of the small cities that surround SL to the south.

Employed at that facility was a high-roller named Ben Preece, who was in charge of procurement for the shop, Waeco, now defunct. I recall him telling me that if a person, in a lifetime, could count all his friends on one hand, he was very wealthy. I believe that to be true.

You're a fortunate young man!

Incidentally, Ben was killed in a car crash not too long afterwards.

It's a pleasure having you on the board, Swamp Fox.

Harold

 

[Swamp Fox]

Thank you very much Harold! I know I haven't been here long, and I don't know how many friends you have, but from what I have seen you are a very fortunate man with your life as well as a very intelligent and honest man. I am honored that you think so highly of me and hope I don't ever disappoint you in that assessment.

Thanks again

Chris javascript:emoticon('')

 

[geubrina]

Hi Everybody,

From different perceptive, I must said that if I can take out the copper as by product, actually I am saving for cash.

for example, if for each gram of gold I can refine, I can have let's say 100 gram of copper, then the copper is 50 or 100 kg, I can sell it at USD 250 or USD 500, here at scrap collector. (I am thinking of extracting gold out of copper rich ore). Maybe the calculation is different?

The most important thing is how to precipitate the copper at lower cost. You have idea, friends? I believe Harold, PG, Silvernitrate and all others have good idea about this.

 

[Platdigger]

Silvernitrate, do you know if it would be possible to use your Caustic Syurp method on copper solutions?
To reduce them to metal I mean........
Randy

 

[Gotrek]

Hi Everybody,


The most important thing is how to precipitate the copper at lower cost. You have idea, friends? I believe Harold, PG, Silvernitrate and all others have good idea about this.

I believe what Harold is saying(again) and has said multiple times is that no one will Take nevermind Buy the copper by-product of gold refining.

And refining the copper in order to melt/press it into pure copper bars is out of reach for the hom refiner.

 

[SilverNitrate]

Silvernitrate, do you know if it would be possible to use your Caustic Syurp method on copper solutions?
To reduce them to metal I mean........
Randy

No. I would reccommend just using iron (ferrous steel) to precip it out.
The caustic syurp on copper solution will make and stay as a copper oxide.

 

[geubrina]

I found a kind of ore, that has contained of copper (20%), Fe, Ag and Au. This sulphide type of stone.

I've been looking for a way to take out the precious metals out of this ore.
So, what I am doing here is first to grind the stone to powder. Heat it (get rid of the major S content), then magnetically take out the iron.

After that, I pour the HNO3 to take out the remaining Fe, Cu and Ag. Decant the solution into another glassware, wash the left over, and then put Aqua Regia to dissolve the gold in the remaining solid. Then precipitate the gold with Sodium metabisulphide.

Then, precipitate the Ag, with NaCl.
Then, precipitate the Cu, with ???

For this whole process, can you kindly give me another option for the process? I learned this from a friend who traditionally extract the gold from ore. This is so simple Chemical, I think. I have to upgrade myself. Pls guidance, friends.

 

[Harold_V]

Then, precipitate the Cu, with ???

That's very simple. Simply place the solution in a plastic barrel with some scrap steel. The copper will precipitate on the scrap steel, which in turn will go into solution as the copper is precipitated.

Here in the US, there is no ready market for copper that is recovered by that method, but if you have a large enough furnace that will tolerate fluxing, you can melt the copper and cast ingots. The ingots would have no less than scrap copper value. Bringing the copper fine would be more trouble than it is worth unless you had a large amount and could justify a copper cell.

Harold

 

[geubrina]

Then, precipitate the Cu, with ???

That's very simple. Simply place the solution in a plastic barrel with some scrap steel. The copper will precipitate on the scrap steel, which in turn will go into solution as the copper is precipitated.

Here in the US, there is no ready market for copper that is recovered by that method, but if you have a large enough furnace that will tolerate fluxing, you can melt the copper and cast ingots. The ingots would have no less than scrap copper value. Bringing the copper fine would be more trouble than it is worth unless you had a large amount and could justify a copper cell.

Harold

Thanks, Harold.
Is it possible to put the cheapest iron instead of steel?
I have no experiment nor knowledge at all for smelting the copper ore. Is it just merely increase the heat until the melting point?

Yes, here, we can sell even 1 or 2 kg of copper metal to the scrap collector. Cheaper than LME price, off course.

Regarding my process of the Au and Ag, do you have any better idea?