Hi all, this is my first time posting, and even my first time visiting this forum. I am interested in everything everyone has been saying and hope I don't offend with anything I might say here. From what I've seen on the forums, Steve, Pd, and Harold are all very distinguished on this site and I have read many things that have shown them to have plenty of knowledge of refining.
I will say it here and now that I am 20 years old and a full time student and chemistry major. I understand some of the implications of the different disposal methods and refining methods listed in this forum (though I can't help but laugh at the idea of someone burning mercury when it isn't even used in most commercial thermometers today because of it's toxicity).
A quote from Harold: "How much time and money are you willing to spend on what amounts to a few dollars worth of copper?"
I don't know how much it would cost, having not done anything with refining yet, to go through the process of removing copper. I do understand and sympathize with someone wanting to reduce the impact they would create with dumping the copper, and if it doesn't cost more to remove the copper than it would to buy it I can see removing it to cut down on costs/impact. If the only thing you are losing is time, and refining is truly a hobby, then you really aren't losing much by doing this if you truly enjoy refining and take this to be just another part of the process.
Harold, I think I remember you posting a link in another thread that went to a site where people can buy the Hoke book. I can't remember which thread it was and don't have the link myself, but I would greatly appreciate it if you could post it again. I know that I would like to get a copy of this book, and I'm sure others would too. It might also be a good idea, since it is such a storehouse of refining knowledge that you have referred to multiple times, to include it here so that those of us who don't have a copy can read it.
A quote from Steve "In short you can not skip the fundamentals and expect to make a leap forward in the technology of refining. Part of this learning process is learning good habits and that's what you can get from Hoke. You can also learn the differences in testing the various solutions as well as disposal techniques. Solution and substance identification makes up a good part of the science of refining. Without it you will be as lost as a blind man. Hoke teaches this technique also."
A quote from Harold "Nonsense! Get a grip and come to terms with the idea that if you don't understand the basics, you, nor anyone else, will contribute to progress. If readers don't have a clue how to test for gold, or how to recover it, I'd be interested in hearing how they're going to make revolutionary changes in the chemistry of gold. We have professional people that work in chemistry on a daily basis----and I don't hear them touting revolutionary processes, yet you tell me that the common man is on the threshold of something new? Show me."
As a chemist I can say that I agree with Steve's statement, but i wouldn't limit it to just refining. I definitely have seen plenty of evidence that you need the fundamentals and understanding of those who have come before you (that is the whole reason and purpose of a university education, passing on the knowledge that has come before you). But I'm sorry Harold, it
is possible to go forward and find something new and worthwhile without all of the basics, though I will admit that it is infinitely easier to see and understand what you are doing with all of the basics. As you have stated though, it is the people who blaze ahead without waiting to listen to their guide that land in the quicksand pits and leopard dens, requiring those who have gone before them, or even the guide they ignored, to bail them out.
When I was in Boy Scouts preparing for a backpacking trip with another troop there was one person in the group who everyone else wanted as the "leader" or "guy in front". On our first time out hiking he and one other guy just took off without looking back. The rest of us went at our own pace and stopped after a half hour. We sat down and waited. It took another half hour for them to get back to us and they were raging mad. Had they not been together we would have sent someone ahead to stop them. One of the adults in the group knew the trail said that they couldn't get into much trouble yet. When they came back the whole group got lectured on what it means to be a leader and a follower. We were told that the leaders job is to do his/ her best to make sure everyone is doing alright and if someone has a problem the leader is supposed to address that problem. The follower's job is to make sure that (s)he has all of the knowledge and information they could possibly need, to ask questions of those who may know what they need, and make sure they are doing everything in their power to judge themselves and how they are doing. And it is the job of both the leader and the follower to make sure that the group stays together and works well together.
This story and idea I think can be applied to any situation. I know that there will be posts that upset me, just as some posts have upset Harold, myself, and even Steve to the point that Steve felt he had to defend Harold. I may be truly putting my foot in it this time, but as with the hiking analogy I made in the last paragraph I think that everyone would agree that this site is here to help the average and not average refiner. It took those guys who ran ahead of everyone an hour to realize something was wrong. Sometimes people need to make mistakes in order to see that they need to back up and slow down. But I also think that everyone can agree that things would work much better without any one person picking on another person. I think that this site is set upon the open source foundations that make it a great site. Those foundations though also open it up for easier attack by other people who can weaken the site without meaning to. If anyone on this site is jaded by comments directed at them or hurt by a comment and doesn't come back, then the site has lost a knowledge base. And it would be an even greater loss if it were a senior refiner who has alot of knowledge on the topic and is willing to share. things like what Froggy said:
"stupid trick" "far from a clever idea".. a little grumpy this morning Harold?
Can be very hurtful to all of us, and if it was unintentional then that is alright, as long as it is acknowledged.
I can look back at the most influential, envied, and respected people in my life, and of all of the people I can think of the best ones, the ones at the top of the list, were the ones who did their thing and when asked would share why they did what they did. Recycling is a good example. One of my high school teachers was always keeping her bottles and cans in her office and would leave with them at the end of the day, would even collect empty bottles and cans she found in her classroom before the students could throw them away. after the students started learning why she did that they gave her all of their bottles and pop cans. Learning will come, and knowledge will spread. the method is important, not only for the recipient but especially for the person passing that knowledge on. It only hurts you to get angry at a forum post and rage at it and spend alot of time on it. Why not just acknowledge it, if it was a hurtful comment aimed at you, mention it, and if nothing happens let it go. don't forget it necessarily. just don't obsess over it.
Harold, I think you have said more in praise to Hoke's book than anyone else on how it gives the necessary basics, and I know others like Steve have supported that. I have been looking all over this forum for a thread that will give step by step instructions or basics, and have seen many people start threads asking for such. But every time I found a thread that gave step by step instructions, it was not easy to follow what was going on because the person asking the question already had some background information, and the answer started from his/ her background knowledge and went forward.
The best way I can see to go around this problem would be for someone to start a thread on a process from the beginning, or start a thread and post a link to a place to buy Hoke's book with information telling them that the book gives necessary basics and methods for refining. If anyone does this it would help for the subject to reflect the contents.
Anyway... I think I have been ranting enough myself... I'm sorry if I have offended anyone.
I feel Steve said it best:
With that said feel free to post as you wish. Keep in mind that your audience is varied, from the ultra novice to the large refiner. Keep it clean and polite. Above all have a good time and share what you have learned.
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Very Happy
