epic fail!!! what do I do now???

[bert_b]

Ok so a technology confounded friend of mine recently made a mistake when refining with aqua regia and asked me to seek out the answer on how to correct the mistake. At the point of the instructions that urea is added to neutralize the nitric acid is where the confusion happened.

So not having his chemicals marked, and it being his first time, he got mixed up and instead of urea he added a bunch of sodium nitrate.

What should he do now? It's about a quarter gallon half of which is the added sodium nitrate(roughly 2 pounds of granules) diluted in water. The other half of the quarter gallon is pre mixed aqua regia.

Please help this first try at home refining may lead to being his last.

 

[Smack]

Leave it sit for now, contain it but don't seal the container as it may build pressure. Next step, let us know what type of material you were processing. Most likely you will be cementing everything and starting over. You will also need to read up on how to treat and handle your waste solution. And make sure it's not in the house or anywhere that there is exposed metal, the fumes will attack everything metal.

 

[bert_b]

Everything is being done outside

He is refining shot he made from pin ingots

As far as waste disposal I have no idea if he has a plan for that but I'll inquire as I'm on my way there now

Thanks for the answer so far

 

[acpeacemaker]

2 lbs of sodium nitrate? Once cooled, did it turn into a hard mass?

 

[jason_recliner]

He is refining shot he made from pin ingots

Pin ingots? That is, bars made from melted gold plated pins, such as those found on eBay?

Your friend should quit while he is only a little way behind.
With less than < 1% gold in them thar ingots, the cost of acid alone would exceed the value that you, er I mean your friend, can recover.

 

[bert_b]

Let's not be condescending, I'm trying to find a legitimate answer to a question for yes a friend (54 year old an that doesn't care for the internet) with a mess he created for himself, I'm just trying to be nice and help him out. If you don't have anything productive to add to help resolve the issue please keep it to yourself and move along.

 

[nickvc]

I'm afraid the answer you got is correct, pin ingots are very low in gold and frequently have troublesome metals in the mix which makes recovery and refining very hard even for seasoned refiners.
The honest answer is to stop the process, cement any values on copper and neutralise the solution and make it safe to dispose of, instructions for that are here on the forum.
As stated before the cost of chemicals could well outweigh the value of the gold so your friend needs to find a better source to work with and definitely needs to become aquatinted with this forum if he wants to succeed.

 

[Harold_V]

Let's not be condescending, I'm trying to find a legitimate answer to a question for yes a friend (54 year old an that doesn't care for the internet) with a mess he created for himself, I'm just trying to be nice and help him out. If you don't have anything productive to add to help resolve the issue please keep it to yourself and move along.

Killing the messenger isn't well received here. We also have a problem with those who pretend to be moderators, but have not been assigned in that capacity. It is not for you to tell readers what to post, especially when no rudeness has been involved.

You have been given the best possible advice, although not the answer you hoped to receive. Here, we do not pander to those who know nothing, but seek advice in keeping with what they hope to hear, rejecting everything else, as you have done.

The first mistake that was made was melting the pins. If they were purchased already melted, that was the second mistake, as one has no clue about content once melted, for such a mess can easily be melted with other scrap brass that contains no value aside from the brass itself.

There is a great deal of information missing that would be required for a reliable response. One of the things that must be known before ANYONE can provide even a shred of guidance is what percentage of the starting mass has been dissolved?

Another valid question is has the solution been tested for gold content? If so, how?

Harold

 

[jason_recliner]

Let's not be condescending, I'm trying to find a legitimate answer to a question for yes a friend (54 year old an that doesn't care for the internet) with a mess he created for himself, I'm just trying to be nice and help him out. If you don't have anything productive to add to help resolve the issue please keep it to yourself and move along.

I will assume that was aimed at me. I am not intending to be condescending, though I will admit to scepticism for we have all heard the "I have a friend with a problem" story before. If you're actually an exception, then you need only replace any instances of "you" with "him/her" for the meat of my response is just as valid, and just as honest.

When I was seven years old I saved, saved and saved some more, to buy magic x-ray glasses from the back of a comic. Have a guess how that turned out.
I was not the first and your friend will not be the last.

Melted pin gold ingots are an honest scam.

 

[bert_b]

Let's not be condescending, I'm trying to find a legitimate answer to a question for yes a friend (54 year old an that doesn't care for the internet) with a mess he created for himself, I'm just trying to be nice and help him out. If you don't have anything productive to add to help resolve the issue please keep it to yourself and move along.

I will assume that was aimed at me. I am not intending to be condescending, though I will admit to scepticism for we have all heard the "I have a friend with a problem" story before. If you're actually an exception, then you need only replace any instances of "you" with "him/her" for the meat of my response is just as valid, and just as honest.

When I was seven years old I saved, saved and saved some more, to buy magic x-ray glasses from the back of a comic. Have a guess how that turned out.
I was not the first and your friend will not be the last.

Melted pin gold ingots are an honest scam.

Thanks you for the nice answer.
Still not getting an answer to what I asked though, what can he do with what he has now that it's messed up.

I'm a third generation placer mine operator the only chemical I ever have to deal with is mercury and with a retort it's always worked the way it's supposed to.

All of these acids are foreign to me, but I was asked a question and said I would seek out an answer. If you have any Help it would be greatly appreciated. Even if I have to part all the info you need to get the answer I will but it's not my operation so info might be slow.

I believe he figured the ratios for the AR for 500g of shot he had made out of the ingots.
Let me know what other info is needed to make this a learning experience instead of a total failure. Thanks

 

[bert_b]

Seems like the general response is he's up a creek.

 

[MarcoP]

Still not getting an answer to what I asked though, what can he do with what he has now that it's messed up.

Smack did provided a valid reply with few questions and a temporary solution to your friend problem.

Leave it sit for now, contain it but don't seal the container as it may build pressure. Next step, let us know what type of material you were processing. Most likely you will be cementing everything and starting over. You will also need to read up on how to treat and handle your waste solution. And make sure it's not in the house or anywhere that there is exposed metal, the fumes will attack everything metal.

It should be your friend best interest to directly ask questions either for safety precautions and to get a better understanding of various procedures.

Marco

 

[bert_b]

Still not getting an answer to what I asked though, what can he do with what he has now that it's messed up.

Smack did provided a valid reply with few questions and a temporary solution to your friend problem.

Leave it sit for now, contain it but don't seal the container as it may build pressure. Next step, let us know what type of material you were processing. Most likely you will be cementing everything and starting over. You will also need to read up on how to treat and handle your waste solution. And make sure it's not in the house or anywhere that there is exposed metal, the fumes will attack everything metal.

It should be your friend best interest to directly ask questions either for safety precautions and to get a better understanding of various procedures.

Marco

Yes smack did and thank you for that.
While I agree it would be easier for him to be asking these things himself. As I previously stated he's in his fiftys and doesn't care for the internet. . . Or reading for that matter. I'm just trying to do right by someone I care about.

Ok so should I be looking up how to cement?

Also to respond to the other question the nitrate might have turned into a hard mass I have no idea I can ask tonight after he is off work or go look when I go over tonight. I will have a definitive answer then

 

[Barren Realms 007]

Let's not be condescending, I'm trying to find a legitimate answer to a question for yes a friend (54 year old an that doesn't care for the internet) with a mess he created for himself, I'm just trying to be nice and help him out. If you don't have anything productive to add to help resolve the issue please keep it to yourself and move along.

I will assume that was aimed at me. I am not intending to be condescending, though I will admit to scepticism for we have all heard the "I have a friend with a problem" story before. If you're actually an exception, then you need only replace any instances of "you" with "him/her" for the meat of my response is just as valid, and just as honest.

When I was seven years old I saved, saved and saved some more, to buy magic x-ray glasses from the back of a comic. Have a guess how that turned out.
I was not the first and your friend will not be the last.

Melted pin gold ingots are an honest scam.

Thanks you for the nice answer.
Still not getting an answer to what I asked though, what can he do with what he has now that it's messed up.

I'm a third generation placer mine operator the only chemical I ever have to deal with is mercury and with a retort it's always worked the way it's supposed to.

All of these acids are foreign to me, but I was asked a question and said I would seek out an answer. If you have any Help it would be greatly appreciated. Even if I have to part all the info you need to get the answer I will but it's not my operation so info might be slow.

I believe he figured the ratios for the AR for 500g of shot he had made out of the ingots.
Let me know what other info is needed to make this a learning experience instead of a total failure. Thanks

Under normal circumstances he would be advised to add a copper bar to the solution to cement out the gold that has gone into the solution. The problems with the situation you have described is that the gold content of your solution is going to be so small that it might not be worth recovering. With the addition of the sodium nitrate to the solution chances are the HCL will be used up before the nitric acid is used up in the solution. I would try putting a copper bar in the solution and see if the gold will cement out of the solution.

 

[bert_b]

Ok I understand that better. Thank you for explaining that a little for me.
Let me ask a follow up won't the nitric eat the copper? Or is that the HCL's job?
It sounds like copper acts like mercury in placer mining in that it attracts, the gold is attracted to it causing it to unsuspend from the acid solution? Am I understanding that right?
How big of a copper bar are we talking here ? Would a pre 80's penny work or are we talking a 10-100g. Bar?

I'm not ignorant just uneducated in this area I will listen to all tutoring, I find it interesting and highly value the information.

 

[MrMylar]

Ok I understand that better. Thank you for explaining that a little for me.
Let me ask a follow up won't the nitric eat the copper? Or is that the HCL's job?
It sounds like copper acts like mercury in placer mining in that it attracts, the gold is attracted to it causing it to unsuspend from the acid solution? Am I understanding that right?
How big of a copper bar are we talking here ? Would a pre 80's penny work or are we talking a 10-100g. Bar?

I'm not ignorant just uneducated in this area I will listen to all tutoring, I find it interesting and highly value the information.

The Nitric Acid will dissolve the copper, and that depends on how much nitric is in the solution and how much gold there is to recover and the outside temp. You need to be using pure copper. PURE. A pre-1982 penny is not pure copper. Get a copper pipe and either split it open to make it flat, or bang it flat with a hammer and then place it in the solution. Be prepared to let it sit for at least 2 days to make sure all the gold has been dropped out of the solution. Make sure to swirl the copper piece a few times a day while it's in the solution.

Test your solution with stannous and treat it accordingly.

Hope that helps!

 

[Smack]

Put some pictures up of the solution. The problem with this solution is the amount of excess Nitric. You have to (by cementation through the electromotive process) use up that excess Nitric Acid. Urea is NOT neded. Without seeing it though it's hard for us to determine exactly what he should do. One thing that comes to mind is he should get the internet and educate himself right here on this forum. You would also be better served to read Hoke's book on Refining Precious Metal Wastes and this forum with what your doing mining, there is a mining section here as well.



Edited: I put he should forget the internet instead of get the internet. :roll:

 

[Long Shot]

Maybe I am missing something Bert but the advice given is correct. First off, your friend should be doing this outside with good ventilation. He should get a 5 gallon pail suitable for acids and dilute the solution at least 100% with water, more will be merrier. Buss bar copper would be preferred to cement out all metals below iron. A flattened copper pipe will do but the buss is very effective. From there, the solution can be filtered off after a few days - it should turn a very pretty blue color but given the amount of nitric, he may have to add more copper than what one would think. This solution can then be further processed by adding some scrap steel, preferably iron, which will drop out the copper, it will turn a dark green. He can then filter out the copper precipitate and slowly and carefully add some carbonates (baking soda, etc.) to raise the solutions pH above 7 (preferably about 9) and the iron will drop. This will get all of the metals out of the solution. He can then start over with the cement from the copper drop. I am 53 and I have embraced the internet for a long time due to the vast information available, almost instantaneously. My best friend, however, is my age and is totally illiterate when it comes to computer technology so I can appreciate what you say about your friend. Thing is, if he is going to mess with this stuff he can't do so blindly or carelessly. Not only can he hurt himself but those around him and the environment. There are still libraries around or failing that, as suggested, there is an excellent and free book available here on the forum called Hoke's. It has been formatted so it can be downloaded and printed easily and if you friend or yourself wants a vast source of knowledge on any of this I would recommend you use your abilities to get it before he proceeds further.

 

[goldsilverpro]

Like coins and things such as PM chalices stolen out of a Catholic church or hot jewelry, once those pins are melted, they lose their identity. The blobs are kept a mystery in the way they're sold and they're all different. The ads don't claim much, just that the blobs are made from melted pins. More than likely, they are made from lo-grade partially plated pins, if indeed they are made from pins. It would be stupid for them to use good all gold plated pins. I would guess the ones they use could run as low as 0.5 grams of gold per 1000 grams (2.2 pounds) of pins. Not much. Low enough so it could get lost in the process, especially for a beginner. It might be double that, but I would guess that would be about the top end if these crooks are as smart as I think they are.

 

[Geo]

Some of the best pins I've worked with personally yielded 2g per pound. Those are fully plated with gold. There are some better but the majority will be much worse. Use the 2g per pound and see if it's worth the effort to try and recover it.