Excess borax

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Jon,
I cannot help who a new member may choose to take advice from or if they are relying on how many posts you made, or if you have donated to the forum, or if your name is some ugly green color or if you have a refinery business or a bakery...

Surely if he is serious in learning to refine he will stick around and educate himself to choose who he understands better or who would rather he would rather take advice from, and who he finds he is getting the best advice from...

Although I find it frustrating that sometimes new members have so many different people leading them in different directions with what is sometimes opposing advice, as there may be more than one way to go, and I can see how that would be very confusing and frustrating to our new members...

I feel it would be nice if our new members could get members one on one help without conflicting or almost differing advice from an open discussion.., Well that is one of my frustrations , Jon.

Now that we have both aired our frustrations. I feel much better. Hopefully you do too.
 
anachronism said:
No Butcher I am not questioning your ability to refine.

I'm articulating (badly) the frustration of giving advice to new members and the new members only seeing the advice from people with a green tag as relevant.

Jon

Hey, Jon, I feel the same frustration even though my name is green. I think it's just new members in general that only listens to what they want to hear and not what they need to hear. :lol:

Göran
 
Black slag indicates iron

Slag colors -----

lead = yellow

magnesium or zinc = gray

copper = red (depending on the make up of the flux high copper slag can sometimes be a turquoise shade of blue)

cobalt = blue (as in the deep cobalt blue)

tellurium or selenium = can also produce a "cherry" red slag

antimony = yellowish green

manganese = purple

iron = dark brown to coal black

keep in mind that the color of the slag is determined by the element that is greatest in the smelt/melt

in other words the slag wont have a little of one color here & a little of another there - rather it will tend to the color of the predominant metal oxide going off in the slag

Kurt and 6
Just need to say thank you for clarifying this!
 
How much Soda Ash and Borax is mixed to mix with gold while melting it ? (Flux formula) Or should I use only Soda Ash before melting and while the gold is melted add borax on top. Advises will be appreciated
 
How much Soda Ash and Borax is mixed to mix with gold while melting it ? (Flux formula) Or should I use only Soda Ash before melting and while the gold is melted add borax on top. Advises will be appreciated
Simple answer, if it is pure Gold.
None.
One do not use Borax or Flux for melting Gold.
A slight Borax glazing on the melting vessel is enough.
 
Also I believe you can tell how clean your gold is by the color of it.
Something a person needs to get used to.
This gold has only basically been refined once, there is some tiny amount refined 2nd time that was super dark and dirty.
However one day this will see another refine or 2.
The one in the middle has a layer, the lower layer is slightly dirty.
The top layer of the middle is the cleanest of these small batches put into bottles, and still it will see another refine.
Personally I watch these colors, and when you nail it the color will be very clean light looking.
The very top front of bottle on right was maybe a gram plus of that dirty stuff I mentioned that got a second run, I tested.
Sometimes I can waste my time chasing tiny little bits.
 

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Simple answer, if it is pure Gold.
None.
One do not use Borax or Flux for melting Gold.
A slight Borax glazing on the melting vessel is enough.
Thanks for your prompt reply but I read in many articles that adding soda ash and borax helps reduce the melting point or helps in melting the gold more quickly … is that the case ?
I am working with gold from computer parts this time and it is not the typical good brown even after 4 refinings … so I want to add some soda ash and borax to it but I want to know the correct ratio of soda ash and borax and how to use them after the gold has melted … please advise
 
Thanks for your prompt reply but I read in many articles that adding soda ash and borax helps reduce the melting point or helps in melting the gold more quickly … is that the case ?
I am working with gold from computer parts this time and it is not the typical good brown even after 4 refinings … so I want to add some soda ash and borax to it but I want to know the correct ratio of soda ash and borax and how to use them after the gold has melted … please advise
Please elaborate how you refine it first.
 
Thanks for your prompt reply but I read in many articles that adding soda ash and borax helps reduce the melting point or helps in melting the gold more quickly … is that the case ?
I am working with gold from computer parts this time and it is not the typical good brown even after 4 refinings … so I want to add some soda ash and borax to it but I want to know the correct ratio of soda ash and borax and how to use them after the gold has melted … please advise
Are you using a torch to melt the Gold?
 
everything you wanted to know about flux.....hopefully.

Making and using melt fluxes

What is flux and why do we need it?

The word flux is from the Latin meaning “to flow”. And that says it all, a proper flux blend helps the molten metal to pool and flow evenly, and completely, out of the crucible.

Flux is made up of a variety of dry powdered reagents mixed in specific proportions for different alloys and situations. The proportions of the ingredients are listed as parts.

Some melt shops prefer to add the ingredients separately for every melt, but I prefer to blend larger batches in the correct proportions and add it (pre-mixed) as required.

The effect of the flux often depends on the contact of the flux with the metal which you are melting. Once the metal has melted, the flux floats on top and the metal is collected in a pool under the flux. When re-melting slags containing beads, this is more important, also true with melting dental scrap. Clean karat scrap for example, will melt fine if added to a crucible and given a scoop of flux over the material. But other melts go much better if the flux can be in contact with the metal as it melts. For this reason, as a general rule, it is best to add the flux to a tray and add the material to the tray and mix them together. This mixture is fed into the crucible and melted, thus assuring contact for all melts.

Mixing the fluxes.

The following flux formulations are listed using a measure called parts. How big is a part? It doesn’t really matter how big a part is as long as whatever you use to measure that part is the same size for all parts. For example, a discussion of mixing the first flux on the list, sterling silver flux. The easiest way to do this is using full parts, so if our part is a coffee cup, look to see the part with a fraction of a part needed. So rather than guesstimate half of that coffee cup, simply add 1 full cup. Since that only required half a cup and you doubled it, you double every other quantity to maintain the proportion. So, it becomes…..

1 part silica sand
2 parts soda ash
4 parts anhydrous borax

By using parts, we can make batches as small or as large as we need. For fluxes you intend to make a lot of, a part can be a 2-pound coffee can, and for smaller lots it can be a coffee cup. As long as what you select to measure a part is the same for all of the ingredients.

The exception to this is the dental melt flux, the proportions are listed as percentages. You will need a scale to mix this type of flux.

For example, to make 1 pound of the dental flux multiply the 36% required of the first ingredient (Borax) by the final weight of flux desired. In this example a pound (approx. 454 grams) 454 x .36 = 163.44 grams. Weigh out (to the nearest gram) the Borax and add it to the container you will store it in. Use the same logic for every ingredient listed and add them all to the same container. Then simply mix the ingredients until it is homogeneous.

Storing the flux

It is best to store the blended fluxes in a seal-able container to keep air out. Some flux ingredients are hygroscopic which means they will absorb moisture out of the air. If stored in the open air some fluxes turn into a block which you will likely not notice until you try to stick your scoop into it. A properly fitting lid will prevent this.

And finally…..

Since most of the ingredients in a flux blend are white, or close to it, they all look pretty much the same in their buckets. Don’t guess, label the buckets properly! In addition to labeling the side of the pail, label the top so you can glance down and select the right container without pulling out the pails and tipping them to read the side.

What happens to all of the flux when it is poured from the crucible?

When the melt and flux are molten, remember the flux is lighter and floats on top of the denser molten metal. When you pour, flux will flow into the mold first followed by the metal. Some flux will remain in the crucible and flow out after all of the metal has poured out. This is good because it prevents the metal from sticking in the crucible. But often you will see the mold filling up and be hesitant to continue the pour. Do not hesitate, keep pouring. All of the metal will displace flux out of the mold. If you have selected a mold with the capacity to hold all of the metal you melted, all of the metal will remain in the mold. Always placing a baking tray under the mold will contain any fluid flux that overspills the mold.

Sterling silver

2 parts anhydrous borax
1 part soda ash
1/2 part silica sand. Can use swimming pool diatomaceous earth

Thinning mix (not to be confused with thinning flux) This will thin a thick slag to make it pour and mix better. Very corrosive on crucibles. This flux additive is added as required to thin slags that are very thick. Add it sparingly to the flux already in the crucible and stir it in with a graphite rod to reduce the viscosity the flux.

1 part fluorspar
1 part calcium oxide (CaO, Lime, Type S, Unslaked)

Standard Karat Thinning flux. Used to prevent beads in slag. Used on karat gold so as not to hang up beads in the slag.

1 part Anhydrous borax
1 part soda ash
1/8 part fluorspar

Re-melting flux. For re-melting straight borax flux to recover beads

1/2 part Anhydrous borax
1 part soda ash
1/8 part fluorspar

Melt equal portions of this flux with borax flux containing beads. Beads are often hung up when straight borax is used for a melt. This blend will reduce the viscosity and allow the beads to pool. Pour this melt into a cone mold to recover the metal as a single button in the mold.

Dental material

36% Anhydrous Borax
25% Sodium Nitrate
15% Cryolite (can substitute fluorspar)
12% Soda ash
12% Lime (slaked)

Start with a mixture of 75% material to 25% flux to begin. Load the crucible 1/4 to 1/3 full and heat to fluidize without spiting, add more flux/material mix until it is all in the crucible.

If slag is thick add additional Cryolite to thin it in small increments. Be careful Cryolite eats up crucibles.

Pour into a cone mold.
 
Please elaborate how you refine it first.
I take RAMs separate the ICs and then incinerate them … then I give them nitric and water treatment and heat them for 1 hour
Please elaborate how you refine it first.
Are you using a torch to melt the Gold?
I took some RAMs and seperated the ICs then I took the boards and give them AR and heated them for 1 hour to get all the gold in solution … then i denoxed with Sulfamic and added SMB … and kept it for next day … to ICs I incinerated and dipped the in half water half nitric to remove base metals … then next day I I washed ICs and gave them AR heated them and denoxed and SMB for next day… then next day I collect the gold on filter papers and take the filter papers and put them in AR heat them … then denox and add SMB next day gold settles at the bottom but it still dark brown …. Then I remove liquid again refine next day gold settles … then again I refine with ferrous this 4 time … heavy good gold settles but it is still dark chocolate brown …
Now I want to melt this one with a butane torch in a ceramic crucible so how do I proceed and add soda ash and borax
Please advise
 
everything you wanted to know about flux.....hopefully.

Making and using melt fluxes

What is flux and why do we need it?

The word flux is from the Latin meaning “to flow”. And that says it all, a proper flux blend helps the molten metal to pool and flow evenly, and completely, out of the crucible.

Flux is made up of a variety of dry powdered reagents mixed in specific proportions for different alloys and situations. The proportions of the ingredients are listed as parts.

Some melt shops prefer to add the ingredients separately for every melt, but I prefer to blend larger batches in the correct proportions and add it (pre-mixed) as required.

The effect of the flux often depends on the contact of the flux with the metal which you are melting. Once the metal has melted, the flux floats on top and the metal is collected in a pool under the flux. When re-melting slags containing beads, this is more important, also true with melting dental scrap. Clean karat scrap for example, will melt fine if added to a crucible and given a scoop of flux over the material. But other melts go much better if the flux can be in contact with the metal as it melts. For this reason, as a general rule, it is best to add the flux to a tray and add the material to the tray and mix them together. This mixture is fed into the crucible and melted, thus assuring contact for all melts.

Mixing the fluxes.

The following flux formulations are listed using a measure called parts. How big is a part? It doesn’t really matter how big a part is as long as whatever you use to measure that part is the same size for all parts. For example, a discussion of mixing the first flux on the list, sterling silver flux. The easiest way to do this is using full parts, so if our part is a coffee cup, look to see the part with a fraction of a part needed. So rather than guesstimate half of that coffee cup, simply add 1 full cup. Since that only required half a cup and you doubled it, you double every other quantity to maintain the proportion. So, it becomes…..

1 part silica sand
2 parts soda ash
4 parts anhydrous borax

By using parts, we can make batches as small or as large as we need. For fluxes you intend to make a lot of, a part can be a 2-pound coffee can, and for smaller lots it can be a coffee cup. As long as what you select to measure a part is the same for all of the ingredients.

The exception to this is the dental melt flux, the proportions are listed as percentages. You will need a scale to mix this type of flux.

For example, to make 1 pound of the dental flux multiply the 36% required of the first ingredient (Borax) by the final weight of flux desired. In this example a pound (approx. 454 grams) 454 x .36 = 163.44 grams. Weigh out (to the nearest gram) the Borax and add it to the container you will store it in. Use the same logic for every ingredient listed and add them all to the same container. Then simply mix the ingredients until it is homogeneous.

Storing the flux

It is best to store the blended fluxes in a seal-able container to keep air out. Some flux ingredients are hygroscopic which means they will absorb moisture out of the air. If stored in the open air some fluxes turn into a block which you will likely not notice until you try to stick your scoop into it. A properly fitting lid will prevent this.

And finally…..

Since most of the ingredients in a flux blend are white, or close to it, they all look pretty much the same in their buckets. Don’t guess, label the buckets properly! In addition to labeling the side of the pail, label the top so you can glance down and select the right container without pulling out the pails and tipping them to read the side.

What happens to all of the flux when it is poured from the crucible?

When the melt and flux are molten, remember the flux is lighter and floats on top of the denser molten metal. When you pour, flux will flow into the mold first followed by the metal. Some flux will remain in the crucible and flow out after all of the metal has poured out. This is good because it prevents the metal from sticking in the crucible. But often you will see the mold filling up and be hesitant to continue the pour. Do not hesitate, keep pouring. All of the metal will displace flux out of the mold. If you have selected a mold with the capacity to hold all of the metal you melted, all of the metal will remain in the mold. Always placing a baking tray under the mold will contain any fluid flux that overspills the mold.

Sterling silver

2 parts anhydrous borax
1 part soda ash
1/2 part silica sand. Can use swimming pool diatomaceous earth

Thinning mix (not to be confused with thinning flux) This will thin a thick slag to make it pour and mix better. Very corrosive on crucibles. This flux additive is added as required to thin slags that are very thick. Add it sparingly to the flux already in the crucible and stir it in with a graphite rod to reduce the viscosity the flux.

1 part fluorspar
1 part calcium oxide (CaO, Lime, Type S, Unslaked)

Standard Karat Thinning flux. Used to prevent beads in slag. Used on karat gold so as not to hang up beads in the slag.

1 part Anhydrous borax
1 part soda ash
1/8 part fluorspar

Re-melting flux. For re-melting straight borax flux to recover beads

1/2 part Anhydrous borax
1 part soda ash
1/8 part fluorspar

Melt equal portions of this flux with borax flux containing beads. Beads are often hung up when straight borax is used for a melt. This blend will reduce the viscosity and allow the beads to pool. Pour this melt into a cone mold to recover the metal as a single button in the mold.

Dental material

36% Anhydrous Borax
25% Sodium Nitrate
15% Cryolite (can substitute fluorspar)
12% Soda ash
12% Lime (slaked)

Start with a mixture of 75% material to 25% flux to begin. Load the crucible 1/4 to 1/3 full and heat to fluidize without spiting, add more flux/material mix until it is all in the crucible.

If slag is thick add additional Cryolite to thin it in small increments. Be careful Cryolite eats up crucibles.

Pour into a cone mold.
Wonderful information thanks a lot …
 
I take RAMs separate the ICs and then incinerate them … then I give them nitric and water treatment and heat them for 1 hour


I took some RAMs and seperated the ICs then I took the boards and give them AR and heated them for 1 hour to get all the gold in solution … then i denoxed with Sulfamic and added SMB … and kept it for next day … to ICs I incinerated and dipped the in half water half nitric to remove base metals … then next day I I washed ICs and gave them AR heated them and denoxed and SMB for next day… then next day I collect the gold on filter papers and take the filter papers and put them in AR heat them … then denox and add SMB next day gold settles at the bottom but it still dark brown …. Then I remove liquid again refine next day gold settles … then again I refine with ferrous this 4 time … heavy good gold settles but it is still dark chocolate brown …
Now I want to melt this one with a butane torch in a ceramic crucible so how do I proceed and add soda ash and borax
Please advise
As said before, no need for Borax or Flux.
Just melt directly, just be careful not to blow it out of the melting dish.
 
Flux is used when smelting to remove base metals and other unwanted elements into the slag.
Is there a harm in adding flux even if the gold is clean ? I think flux makes sure that the gold doesn’t blow out of crucible too ..
what will happen if we add flux to clean gold is there a loss in doing so ?
 
Is there a harm in adding flux even if the gold is clean ? I think flux makes sure that the gold doesn’t blow out of crucible too ..
what will happen if we add flux to clean gold is there a loss in doing so ?
Nothing other than insulate the Gold from the flame and corroding your crucible/melting dish
 
Okk whatever you say dear friend … I’ll melt the gold as it is …
Have a nice day
I just wanted to add that there are a few Youtube videos which claim the addition of fluxes, will be the final step in converting impure Gold, into pure .9999 Gold. These claims are false, but seem to be posted by others, who claim they have some type of proprietary process, and they are very skilled by the magic of being able to melt Gold. Usually posted by the misinformed, or scammers.
Certain fluxes will convert chemical combinations, such as Silver Oxide and other various combinations of impure metals, which normally don't amalgamate with the metal bead in the bottom of the crucible, into a form which will amalgamate, improving the recovered metals yield. This alloy of metals will then need to be processed further by liquid chemical means, to separate into the appropriate elemental metal form.
Melting in a dish with direct flame, runs the risk of blowing some Gold out of the dish. Indirect heating is always the preferred method. A little Borax will form beads on the surface of the Gold in a melting dish, which may help with blowing Gold out of the dish, but then you have to deal with further cleaning of the metal bead.
Note the term of melting dish, not a deep crucible. Deep crucibles and torches, are notorious for blowing Gold powders all over the place.
 

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