Extreme amount of Gold plating?!

[anachronism]

Since you've asked such a straight question, it deserves reciprocation. If you were to deal with a company in the US who buys these boards to refine and who both knows the value and is willing to work with you you can make a very tidy income even at the levels of boards you have access to. More of an income than you would get by refining them yourself once you take into account time, materials and equipment.

I wouldn't want to start spitting yield figures out publicly because frankly it's where I make a chunk of my living but rest assured that if you take my advice at the beginning of this post you can do well for yourself. Happy to publicly help in how to break down and segregate the values though if that's of benefit.

Jon

 

[reignofonebass]

The boards do yield well particularly the first board. Butcher these are boards from Ericsson or Nortel microwave Base stations 3G/4G.

I refine a lot of tonnes of these.

The plating is not necessarily as thin as you would think because the boards sell for many thousands of dollars each, and are designed for extremely low rates of failure. A few bucks of extra gold really isn't a concern in this application.

These particular boards are macro base stations servicing 1900mhz & 850mhz. They are the latest technology aside from 5G.

Do you happen to know the specs of the plating? Are these worth stripping of Gold?

I'm hearing both ends of the spectrum here.. not worth doing, and good yield lol.


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[snoman701]

Here's the deal. When you normally see boards of this nature, it's a very thin coating of gold...a flash. The flash is put there for primarily one reason. Gold is non-reactive. It won't tarnish. It will protect the conductive service from corrosion. There's lots of other reasons...increased conductivity, I'm sure some RF mumbo jumbo that Goran can be more specific on....stuff like that.

The flash is often seen on computer components...or cell phone components...even some flat screen television components. Consumer grade equipment.

What has happened, is that a majority of the members have gotten so sick of seeing flash gold and people thinking they've hit the jackpot....and most of the time they are right.

When I have something that i question the value of, the first thing I question is what is the value of this board working. When it comes to a cell phone, a television, or a computer part...not much. When it comes to one of these boards...it's measured in $1,000's per hour, plus the cost of diagnosing and repairing the problem. Same can be said for medical equipment. Same can be said for data acquistion and some scientific eqiupment.

Now, as for refining yourself.

You can recover visible gold plating by cutting it clean from the rest of the board. This can be done with either AP method or copper chloride method.

You can recover the gold wires within the BGA chips.

Beyond that, it's going to be beyond the capabilities or ease of doing yourself. ON EDIT: AND it's going to be a huge amount of chemical waste, and really not be all that much fun.

If I had a constant source of this board, and I really wish I did, what I would do is simple. I'd strip it's BGA chips to process myself and cache the rest. Once I got to a point where i had over 1,000 lbs of boards, I'd either sell them direct to a packager or have them toll refined at one of the companies that does such.

 

[snoman701]

Oh...I'd also pull the coaxial connectors off. You will not get yield from any of the incinerating toll refiners on those. Sell them on Ebay by the pound or find someone on here to toll them for you. They will be best done with cyanide, as I'm almost positive it's gold on stainless. If it's gold on copper or brass, disregard this whole statement.

 

[reignofonebass]

Here's the deal. When you normally see boards of this nature, it's a very thin coating of gold...a flash. The flash is put there for primarily one reason. Gold is non-reactive. It won't tarnish. It will protect the conductive service from corrosion. There's lots of other reasons...increased conductivity, I'm sure some RF mumbo jumbo that Goran can be more specific on....stuff like that.

The flash is often seen on computer components...or cell phone components...even some flat screen television components. Consumer grade equipment.

What has happened, is that a majority of the members have gotten so sick of seeing flash gold and people thinking they've hit the jackpot....and most of the time they are right.

When I have something that i question the value of, the first thing I question is what is the value of this board working. When it comes to a cell phone, a television, or a computer part...not much. When it comes to one of these boards...it's measured in $1,000's per hour, plus the cost of diagnosing and repairing the problem. Same can be said for medical equipment. Same can be said for data acquistion and some scientific eqiupment.

Now, as for refining yourself.

You can recover visible gold plating by cutting it clean from the rest of the board. This can be done with either AP method or copper chloride method.

You can recover the gold wires within the BGA chips.

Beyond that, it's going to be beyond the capabilities or ease of doing yourself. ON EDIT: AND it's going to be a huge amount of chemical waste, and really not be all that much fun.

If I had a constant source of this board, and I really wish I did, what I would do is simple. I'd strip it's BGA chips to process myself and cache the rest. Once I got to a point where i had over 1,000 lbs of boards, I'd either sell them direct to a packager or have them toll refined at one of the companies that does such.

First, these are not consumer grade by any means. These power the entire cell phone infrastructure and cost the carrier (AT&T,T-Mobile, Sprint) over $22,000 each. I understand the flashing, but in the application, I think it may be thicker due to the RF involved. Keep in mind. These are 160watt radios that operate on -48v DC and are exposed to the elements anywhere from 60ft 10 800ft in the air. Maybe Goran can chime in and correct me. About the thickness.


Reselling the Radios (ericsson RRUs B2'S, B12's ; RRUW's ; A2 modules (which have the ceramics) and the list goes on) in usable condition is something I'd do, and would probably be 20 times more profitable, however I have no clue where or how to find a buyer that is interested in building telecommunications infrastructure in a 3 world country (most are still operating on 3G).

These boards are in perfect condition, and practically brand new (some of them have the factory seal from Ericsson)

Selling the radios ready to go is something I'd like to do as it's most profitable, but I don't think is a reality. Unless someone here has the hookup lol

Note. These are not stolen, they are bought, paid for, not assetted or tracked and 100% legal.




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[snoman701]

That was my point...I trust Anachronism's posts when it comes to thickness and value of the boards. I do believe them to be of value, greater than consumer great equipment.

I assumed you were one of the telecom techs tasked with removing these, no concerns about hot property.

My concern is mostly for your safety. In terms of things that are easy to process, your best bet is the BGA chips, then having the boards toll refined, or selling them outright. What state are you in?

 

[reignofonebass]

That was my point...I trust Anachronism's posts when it comes to thickness and value of the boards. I do believe them to be of value, greater than consumer great equipment.

I assumed you were one of the telecom techs tasked with removing these, no concerns about hot property.

My concern is mostly for your safety. In terms of things that are easy to process, your best bet is the BGA chips, then having the boards toll refined, or selling them outright. What state are you in?

The BGA chips don't appear to have much Gold under them. That'd be the last place I would think of as the choice component to strip. Maybe I'm blind lol. I'm in GA


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[jimdoc]

The BGA chips don't appear to have much Gold under them. That'd be the last place I would think of as the choice component to strip. Maybe I'm blind lol. I'm in GA


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It's not under them, it's inside them.

 

[reignofonebass]

The BGA chips don't appear to have much Gold under them. That'd be the last place I would think of as the choice component to strip. Maybe I'm blind lol. I'm in GA


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It's not under them, it's inside them.

Jim,

Thank you, just watched a video about it. Mostly the gold is in the top epoxy chip. Odd


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[g_axelsson]

I could tell you a whole lot about rf mumbo jumbo, but I'm not doing it today.

Whenever I'm questioning the thickness of gold plating I put a small piece in a test tube and hit it with some nitric acid. If the plating is thick it comes off in a large chunk, while thin plating breaks up in small pieces.
Another way is just put a drop of nitric on the surface and watch how fast it reacts. There is a couple of videos on youtube where Successful engineer is testing different plated boards with nitric acid.
http://goldrefiningwiki.com/mediawiki/index.php/ENIG

I haven't tested any boards like this so I can't tell you about the thickness of the plating.

And it shouldn't be a big surprise that most of the gold in BGA chips is in the top epoxy piece, it is there to protect the bond wires from physical damage. And every solder ball is connected to the chip via a thin wire and there is a lot of them on a BGA.
http://goldrefiningwiki.com/mediawiki/index.php/BGA
http://goldrefiningwiki.com/mediawiki/index.php/Bond_wire

Göran

 

[kernels]

This thread has a surprisingly large amount of fantastic information. Actually both sides of this conversation is correct, those boards are simultaneously very high yielding and very low yielding . . .

The difference is how you process them.

Anarchronism will have some form of leach or smelting operation set up where he does not dissolve away all the copper to get to the gold. So the yields for him are very good, because those boards do have a lot of gold for their weight.

The vast majority of us hobbyists end up dissolving away copper to get the gold, when doing so you create a vast volume of hazardous waste acid. So for us, the yields from those boards are not worth the time and effort to treat the waste. I have processed a few of those boards, they are 100% guaranteed a thin flash plating.

By comparison to the visible gold, bond wires inside ICs add up quickly and the majority of your processing is mechanical or with water, so much less waste to deal with.

 

[reignofonebass]

I could tell you a whole lot about rf mumbo jumbo, but I'm not doing it today.

Whenever I'm questioning the thickness of gold plating I put a small piece in a test tube and hit it with some nitric acid. If the plating is thick it comes off in a large chunk, while thin plating breaks up in small pieces.
Another way is just put a drop of nitric on the surface and watch how fast it reacts. There is a couple of videos on youtube where Successful engineer is testing different plated boards with nitric acid.
http://goldrefiningwiki.com/mediawiki/index.php/ENIG

I haven't tested any boards like this so I can't tell you about the thickness of the plating.

And it shouldn't be a big surprise that most of the gold in BGA chips is in the top epoxy piece, it is there to protect the bond wires from physical damage. And every solder ball is connected to the chip via a thin wire and there is a lot of them on a BGA.
http://goldrefiningwiki.com/mediawiki/index.php/BGA
http://goldrefiningwiki.com/mediawiki/index.php/Bond_wire

Göran

Just watched successful engineers ENIG video. So I have the 14kt gold test kit which is not just nitric acid, but nitric and HCO combined. When I drop it on the plating, it takes about 3-4 minutes to start reacting in the manner in the video. .. do I assume this is not ENIG based on these findings?


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[Topher_osAUrus]

Could be that your test acid is old and not too reactive anymore

 

[snoman701]

Just watched successful engineers ENIG video. So I have the 14kt gold test kit which is not just nitric acid, but nitric and HCO combined. When I drop it on the plating, it takes about 3-4 minutes to start reacting in the manner in the video. .. do I assume this is not ENIG based on these findings?


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Hard to say without a baseline of ENIG to compare to. Got old computer parts? Find visible gold plating that isn't a finger.

I'll let Jon comment more on his methods, but I think he said that he doesn't process these himself. He contracts that out. The boards are incinerated in controlled conditions, then the ash and remnants are essentially melted into a metal component that is refined for the metals.

 

[reignofonebass]

Could be that your test acid is old and not too reactive anymore

It's definently not old, manufacture date is 4/16/17. And I peeled the plastic seal from the bottle. When dropped directly on copper, it reacts with a hellacious red cloud


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[anachronism]

Not entirely sure why you're doing an acid test. It's gold.

 

[snoman701]

Not entirely sure why you're doing an acid test. It's gold.

He's trying to determine the thickness of the gold, but it's too thick to react with the copper below. :lol:

 

[anachronism]

Not entirely sure why you're doing an acid test. It's gold.

He's trying to determine the thickness of the gold, but it's too thick to react with the copper below. :lol:

I thought I had already covered that but hey I guess if you ask enough people you'll eventually get the answer you want. Regardless of whether it's right or not. :lol:

 

[reignofonebass]

Not entirely sure why you're doing an acid test. It's gold.

He's trying to determine the thickness of the gold, but it's too thick to react with the copper below. :lol:

I thought I had already covered that but hey I guess if you ask enough people you'll eventually get the answer you want. Regardless of whether it's right or not. :lol:

LOL. Hey now, cut me a break, I got the Gold fever boss man lol


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[snoman701]

Not entirely sure why you're doing an acid test. It's gold.

He's trying to determine the thickness of the gold, but it's too thick to react with the copper below. :lol:

I thought I had already covered that but hey I guess if you ask enough people you'll eventually get the answer you want. Regardless of whether it's right or not. :lol:

People don't trust you.
On Edit: Let me be clear, this is a sarcastic comment in jest. If there is a takehome on this post, it's the last line!
You had said that, but other people told him it was just enig...because that's what everybody thinks any visible gold is.

I'm yet to find an occasion where you are wrong in what you share, you just limit what you share.