General question about gold refining text learning.

[Emryst]

I am in between what i call runs in my head not sure of any preferred or proper term for working a batch of karat, gf or e-scrap is called. Anyway in these down times I search this forum for questions I have for the prior runs I finished to see if I can perfect the methods I use in refining.
I ran across a thread of a question basic about smb hot or cold. And the OP (while some might say tangent or rant) when off about the pedantism in some posts to questions. I dont mean the posts that 1. Answer the question asked. 2. Proceed to make aware of Hoke's book and to read it. Im talking about the ones that only seem to admonish or belittle people some even telling them to not bother with this hobby.
Now don't get me wrong I am completely behind safety and first and foremost knowing what you are doing before one should lay hands on any breaker or acid. I for one at age 53 have the small splash scars from nitric because in my older age I battle with the simple task of putting on those damn gloves.
I have come to have great respect for some members on here by the posts I read and the way I see them educate as well as instruct the proper way to go about being informed to do refining safe and responsible. Not to mention their seemingly limitless knowledge.
Getting back to the pedantism and all those on here that only post to read Hoke's book and search forum your time and the posters time is wasted if that is all you have to give. Imo. Now I know Hoke's book is renowned as the refiners bible but I find it a hard read with its out date analogies and equipment references. I would buy a text if someone with the expertise wrote one that is more modernized for the today hobbyist. Just a thought if someone wanted to try that from here. For me i thank sreetips videos. They help pull together Hoke's book with modern real world refining. Tho I'm miss a lot cause the vids don't cover all in Hoke's book. And I guess I also owe gratitude to Harold on here as screetips has mentioned him as his mentor.
Well long winded post. In other news I learned cold solution because smb creates so2 for the reaction and so2 stays in solution long when cold.

 

[nickvc]

I can see both sides of your complaint , it’s very frustrating for them when a member gets stuck mid process but it’s also frustrating having to write out a reply yet again to a problem that has been covered many many times and that is why we suggest that members do their studying .
While Hoke does not cover e scrap it explains to non chemists ways to process precious metals that helps give new members the basic understanding of what the forum is all about .
Unfortunately few have the time to walk people through processes but most are happy to help those who help themselves .
This particular science is a huge subject and can be confusing to even to people well versed in the sciences who think it’s going to be easy and we produce some highly toxic and dangerous fumes and solutions so we try to push not just learning but safety.
Not everyone has English as their first language and some that do are not particularly good at phrasing what they mean but in defense to all we try to help but members have to help themselves.

 

[Emryst]

Aabsolutely,

I can see both sides of your complaint , it’s very frustrating for them when a member gets stuck mid process but it’s also frustrating having to write out a reply yet again to a problem that has been covered many many times and that is why we suggest that members do their studying .
While Hoke does not cover e scrap it explains to non chemists ways to process precious metals that helps give new members the basic understanding of what the forum is all about .
Unfortunately few have the time to walk people through processes but most are happy to help those who help themselves .
This particular science is a huge subject and can be confusing to even to people well versed in the sciences who think it’s going to be easy and we produce some highly toxic and dangerous fumes and solutions so we try to push not just learning but safety.
Not everyone has English as their first language and some that do are not particularly good at phrasing what they mean but in defense to all we try to help but members have to help themselves.

Absolutely, I agree with you that those who want to partake in this hobby need to learn how to and safely. It is no different in my other hobby of wood working. There maybe not be acids that can bur. Tho to the bone but a table saw doesn't care if it's cutting wood or flesh & bone. Safety is paramount. The main issue is technical methods people ask about. And Hoke's book is not the easiest read to make translation into modern practices well not persay for me and I guess for those where english is not their first language. But until somebody tackles the task to modernized the text it is all there is I assume. To be honest I haven't looked for other text on the subject in a hobby capacity. I also understand how tedious it can be to write the same answer over and over for the people most experienced on here. Might be easier to just answer with read this answer and a link to the earlier post. Lol it's up to them if they wish to follow that and learn and eliminates the ones who wish to be spoon fed step by step instructions.

 

[nickvc]

Hoke gives non chemists the basics to understand what we all discuss here , it was written when e scrap was not around and wouldn’t be for 40 years plus but if you can understand her writings and pick the real nuggets of information she details it can be very useful.
As to someone writing a new book in many ways it’s not needed as everything most need to know is here on the forum and free, it might take a little research to find exactly what you want to know but while looking perhaps you pick up a few new tips that may be useful later.
The other big disincentive is the sheer effort needed to cover all types of scraps and the many processes for Im afraid very very little return , I’m not sure how many copies of Hokes book have been sold but I doubt it’s more than 5000 and it’s 80 odd years old, I doubt she made any money from her efforts to educate others in the basics of recovery and refining.
I get that many find the chemistry hard to understand for I failed at chemistry miserably at school but I went on to run my own refinery and if I can do it everybody else should be capable too.
I found losing my own money a very large incentive to learn and succeed.

 

[4metals]

Hoke's book is not exactly what the title states, "Refining Precious Metal Wastes" in the era of e-scrap. She wrote her book with a target audience of jewelers in mind. And today it is every bit as complete as it was when it was written. If you were a jeweler in the '40's or '50's, her book was without question the bible. But as I said the audience she wrote for were jewelers not chemists.

I also understand how tedious it can be to write the same answer over and over for the people most experienced on here. Might be easier to just answer with read this answer and a link to the earlier post.

In the spirit of your request, I offer you this Link.

Loewen's book is a little more technical but still not detailed in the world of e-scrap.

Precious metal refining has always been a very secretive profession. And while books like Hoke's and Loewen's were out there, they were not mass marketed effectively. I do not know of any book specifically detailed to refiners of e-scrap and if there are papers out there, they are for the benefit of professional organizations in the refining field like IPMI. But then round about 2007, came the Gold Refining Forum and it seemed to shatter all of the norms of secrecy in the industry. In the beginning the major scrap-type was jewelry related scrap and slowly the e-scrap collectors started to show up and more scrap types entered the discussion. While we do have many knowledgeable members here, even some from major refiners, the typical methodology used by hobby back yard refiners is not mainstream and is not found easily. In that regard, GRF is your best bet.

As Nick has pointed out, we do get asked the same or similar questions often and repeating the same answers over and over gets a little wearing. I have begun posting links when I can because that seems to be useful. Recently we have figured out a way to target searches that discuss topics we feel have been covered well and if you go HERE you will find a list of threads pertaining to specific topics which moderators have read and feel are worthy. and if you prefer video's, this section in the library is relatively NEW. While it did require a lot of effort, we felt the ability to simplify searches from the vast quantity of information already here on the forum was worth the effort. However member feedback as far as new suggestions or threads to add to searches or video's has been less than stellar.

Im talking about the ones that only seem to admonish or belittle people some even telling them to not bother with this hobby.

I do try hard not to fit into this class of responders but some members do test that I will admit. You will notice that members who ask well posed informative questions do get good answers. I could link you to threads of members who followed this advice and are now reaping the benefits. I will spare you those links for now unless you ask specifically but the message I am trying to convey is that all of the staff and a great number of our members do strive to help members who struggle.

 

[Emryst]

Hoke gives non chemists the basics to understand what we all discuss here , it was written when e scrap was not around and wouldn’t be for 40 years plus but if you can understand her writings and pick the real nuggets of information she details it can be very useful.
As to someone writing a new book in many ways it’s not needed as everything most need to know is here on the forum and free, it might take a little research to find exactly what you want to know but while looking perhaps you pick up a few new tips that may be useful later.
The other big disincentive is the sheer effort needed to cover all types of scraps and the many processes for Im afraid very very little return , I’m not sure how many copies of Hokes book have been sold but I doubt it’s more than 5000 and it’s 80 odd years old, I doubt she made any money from her efforts to educate others in the basics of recovery and refining.
I get that many find the chemistry hard to understand for I failed at chemistry miserably at school but I went on to run my own refinery and if I can do it everybody else should be capable too.
I found losing my own money a very large incentive to learn and succeed.

Hoke's book is not exactly what the title states, "Refining Precious Metal Wastes" in the era of e-scrap. She wrote her book with a target audience of jewelers in mind. And today it is every bit as complete as it was when it was written. If you were a jeweler in the '40's or '50's, her book was without question the bible. But as I said the audience she wrote for were jewelers not chemists.


In the spirit of your request, I offer you this Link.

Loewen's book is a little more technical but still not detailed in the world of e-scrap.

Precious metal refining has always been a very secretive profession. And while books like Hoke's and Loewen's were out there, they were not mass marketed effectively. I do not know of any book specifically detailed to refiners of e-scrap and if there are papers out there, they are for the benefit of professional organizations in the refining field like IPMI. But then round about 2007, came the Gold Refining Forum and it seemed to shatter all of the norms of secrecy in the industry. In the beginning the major scrap-type was jewelry related scrap and slowly the e-scrap collectors started to show up and more scrap types entered the discussion. While we do have many knowledgeable members here, even some from major refiners, the typical methodology used by hobby back yard refiners is not mainstream and is not found easily. In that regard, GRF is your best bet.

As Nick has pointed out, we do get asked the same or similar questions often and repeating the same answers over and over gets a little wearing. I have begun posting links when I can because that seems to be useful. Recently we have figured out a way to target searches that discuss topics we feel have been covered well and if you go HERE you will find a list of threads pertaining to specific topics which moderators have read and feel are worthy. and if you prefer video's, this section in the library is relatively NEW. While it did require a lot of effort, we felt the ability to simplify searches from the vast quantity of information already here on the forum was worth the effort. However member feedback as far as new suggestions or threads to add to searches or video's has been less than stellar.


I do try hard not to fit into this class of responders but some members do test that I will admit. You will notice that members who ask well posed informative questions do get good answers. I could link you to threads of members who followed this advice and are now reaping the benefits. I will spare you those links for now unless you ask specifically but the message I am trying to convey is that all of the staff and a great number of our members do strive to help members who struggle.

I do t want to get misconstrued with my posting I'm not at all feeling harsh about this forum site. It has been a huge help for me and others that I can see. As for Hoke's book my suggestion was more so of an update in the terminology, equipment, and examples and experiments that aline better with today's backyard refiner then the jewelers from the 1930's. From all i have seen in many videos and chats most hobbyist use beakers and hot plates vaccuum funnels and many other lab type equipment.
That is all I'm saying I'm not saying Hoke's book doesn't give the knowledge it's just a tiresome read for me anyway and I can't be the only one who might think this way. But true I will not be the one to venture out and write a book lol so I just wanted to put it out there if someone were to self publish a book I would support the book and the author with a purchase.

The link reply was more for all those who answer to help. Not for the askers. Another idea would be to make a searchable link directory by topic or key words that would take someone to a list of relevant threads. So researching isn't such an overwhelming task on here. So many threads and most get off topic from the original topic at some point lol. It's just the nature of people chatting i know but it can turn out to be a huge waste of time looking for answers so I think people just default to asking the same questions over and over and the knowledgeable ones are getting tired of repeating the same answers.

 

[4metals]

Another idea would be to make a searchable link directory by topic or key words that would take someone to a list of relevant threads.

Have you been to our library of threads? If you click on the link in my signature line it takes you to the library index thread which is the easiest way to find if your questions are threads in the library.

 

[goldshark]

Have you been to our library of threads? If you click on the link in my signature line it takes you to the library index thread which is the easiest way to find if your questions are threads in the library.

Perhaps a list of chemicals, and their reaction series would make it real simple. The only problem is you would have to obtain a Phd in chemistry, to be able to understand it. That is why Hoke's book is such a bible. Then and still today! She made it as readable for somebody with an IQ of maybe 98 to 142. Now that takes sheer genius. Updating, in my opinion, is just another " I want an answer right now " mentality. Researching something like Oil of Vitriol, gives an inside to the history of chemistry. A character builder never hurt anyone. It is so lacking in todays digital technology, at least in my opinion, FWIW.