Green liquid

[Asiacdurr]

I did nitric Leach on 14.4oz of gold plated pins. 2oz were from military grade pins. I then did Aqua regia with actual nitric and hcl. I age filter all steps. My liquid tests high with stannous. My liquid is green. Is that from copper in solution? If so, how do I remove it?

 

[Geo]

According to board rules, you need to read Hoke's books which is free to download from the forum and read it. Read it as many times as it takes to start making sense to you. This very simple question you ask would be easy to answer but then what? you will need to ask the next question which is just as simple.

You do not need to remove the green from the solution.

Why did you dissolve metal without reading and studying on what to do with the solution afterwards or what to expect it to look like beforehand? You need to have some kind of understanding about what you should or should not be seeing before you start. You jumped in without a clue. Did you really think the solution would be any other color?

 

[Asiacdurr]

Thnx geo

 

[patnor1011]

I did nitric Leach on 14.4oz of gold plated pins. 2oz were from military grade pins. I then did Aqua regia with actual nitric and hcl. I age filter all steps. My liquid tests high with stannous. My liquid is green. Is that from copper in solution? If so, how do I remove it?

That is very small amount of pins. There will be not much of gold out of this. Pins are better to run in cell, dissolving them in nitric is quite expensive process considering amount of acid used and waste solution created.

 

[Long Shot]

Geez, I used to think the members were hard on new people but after being on board for awhile it is apparent that newbies join up and ask the same old questions - "help me cause I don't know what I'm doing". Man, read and self educate, it is all free and very available. Now I know why Harold get's crusty!

 

[Harold_V]

Geez, I used to think the members were hard on new people but after being on board for awhile it is apparent that newbies join up and ask the same old questions - "help me cause I don't know what I'm doing". Man, read and self educate, it is all free and very available. Now I know why Harold get's crusty!

This is a rather complex issue. Many who inquire here have undertaken a project that requires considerable knowledge to see it to fruition. None of it is difficult, but with ignorance (lack of knowledge), it quickly becomes so, and that doesn't take in to account safety of both the individual and the environment. I liken it to a dude thinking he'd like to be a part of a band, so he buys a guitar and looks for a place to play, not considering that he can't play yet, because he has no training in doing so.

And so it goes with gold refining. These dudes tend to see something on youtube, where those who post often leave out any and all of the details, showing you the results of their endeavors without providing a clue as to what they had to learn to get that far.

We have tried, often in vain, to be polite with these folks. They are told to read Hoke's book (which will provide a basic understanding of refining principles, as well as familiarize the reader with the chemicals and language common to the refining operation. They are further advised to study the forum, so they gain an understanding of how this group works, as well as to avoid asking the same tired questions that have been asked (and answered) countless numbers of time.

For what ever reason, some seem to think their case is unique, that there is no need for them to follow the instructions they have received, so they persist, even when a simple task has been solved for them. Unfortunately, all that does is give the reader a perfect reason to ask the next question, which, in turn, turns in to the next question, ad nauseam. That's exactly what we have tried to avoid.

Get crusty?

Yep, I sure as hell do, and for VERY good reason.

If it's not important enough for the individual asking questions to gain an understanding of the process of refining, why would he/she assume it's important enough for readers who have the skills and knowledge to constantly put that knowledge in print, when it has already been printed all too many times? What prompts such an individual to demand of others, time dedicated to their problem when they aren't willing to dedicate the same time?

This is the perfect opportunity for those who have a problem with the operation of the board to speak their minds. How should those who refuse to be responsible for gaining their own education, their own research, be handled? Should they be coddled? Should they be banned? Should we continue as it once was, answering mindless questions on a daily basis?

I want to know.

Harold

 

[Pantherlikher]

Harold_V...
Your knowledge and being "crusty" is exactly what we need here.
You let it go as it will and intervene only when it goes to far.

Neebies like myself need to be pointed in the right direction. Not just the "simple answer".
But guided to the right places to learn what's needed to be successful.
I have a question or "mess", I simply search and find that my questions are answered 10 fold and leads me into another group of knowledge filled posts.

One of our newest, John I think, saw the harshness or the same ole same ole and decided to help as best he can. Extremely nice about it but I'm sure with time, it'll fade some. But at least he's trying to guide in the right direction to the best of his abilities. Like myself when I find the usual newbie questions...

We all should help but not answer the "simple answer" that leads to the next question or mess. This is where we all need guidance to formulate a response that helps best while still being polite...

Again thank you Harold for everything you do and have done as well as everyone before us that have shared.

B.S.

 

[modtheworld44]

Geez, I used to think the members were hard on new people but after being on board for awhile it is apparent that newbies join up and ask the same old questions - "help me cause I don't know what I'm doing". Man, read and self educate, it is all free and very available. Now I know why Harold get's crusty!

This is a rather complex issue. Many who inquire here have undertaken a project that requires considerable knowledge to see it to fruition. None of it is difficult, but with ignorance (lack of knowledge), it quickly becomes so, and that doesn't take in to account safety of both the individual and the environment. I liken it to a dude thinking he'd like to be a part of a band, so he buys a guitar and looks for a place to play, not considering that he can't play yet, because he has no training in doing so.

And so it goes with gold refining. These dudes tend to see something on youtube, where those who post often leave out any and all of the details, showing you the results of their endeavors without providing a clue as to what they had to learn to get that far.

We have tried, often in vain, to be polite with these folks. They are told to read Hoke's book (which will provide a basic understanding of refining principles, as well as familiarize the reader with the chemicals and language common to the refining operation. They are further advised to study the forum, so they gain an understanding of how this group works, as well as to avoid asking the same tired questions that have been asked (and answered) countless numbers of time.

For what ever reason, some seem to think their case is unique, that there is no need for them to follow the instructions they have received, so they persist, even when a simple task has been solved for them. Unfortunately, all that does is give the reader a perfect reason to ask the next question, which, in turn, turns in to the next question, ad nauseam. That's exactly what we have tried to avoid.

Get crusty?

Yep, I sure as hell do, and for VERY good reason.

If it's not important enough for the individual asking questions to gain an understanding of the process of refining, why would he/she assume it's important enough for readers who have the skills and knowledge to constantly put that knowledge in print, when it has already been printed all too many times? What prompts such an individual to demand of others, time dedicated to their problem when they aren't willing to dedicate the same time?

This is the perfect opportunity for those who have a problem with the operation of the board to speak their minds. How should those who refuse to be responsible for gaining their own education, their own research, be handled? Should they be coddled? Should they be banned? Should we continue as it once was, answering mindless questions on a daily basis?

I want to know.

Harold

Mr Harold_V


I don't think you need to change one thing about how your protecting our Knowledge.You are doing a outstanding job.Thanks in advance.



modtheworld44

 

[solar_plasma]

I agree with modtheworld44.

As far as there has been asked for ideas (I have always far more than I need): Regarding many threads which I would call "Newby actually made a stockpot with a little dissolved gold in it" it might make sense to delete them before they grow. Instead the newb could get a standard mail with helpful links and some short advices he needs. If there is something special in the given problem and an answer would add something valuable to the forum, it could be made in the shape of a new thread.

Or more progressive, there could be a section for the stuff, that automaticly is deleted on a monthly base. Good answers are given in the shape of tutorials in "Tutorials" and a link to the tutorial in the temporary section.

Those are only some half baken ideas spoken with half shut eyes across the first cup of morning coffee..so, don't take them too serious.

 

[Long Shot]

Maybe it is a complex issue, I don't really know, What I do know is that the processes are complex and in consideration of self preservation and those around you, and in consideration of the environment, one can't just jump into all of this and do something they know nothing of and then ask questions after they have done it. I still have yet to refine my first gold because I read and attend much in this forum. I do not feel confident at this point to do so because of the aforementioned. I have used AP to amass gold flakes but am still learning before I mix up some AR to go to the next step - because I observe and listen to those who have come before me. Ya'll know who you are. My whole point was to advise the OP that they are like so many others, they join this outfit then ask how to get out of a mess. Should be a qualification exam before they are allowed to post. I know that will be unpopular because it requires time of volunteers but it would surely eliminate the "same old, same old" stuff, in my mind anyway. I would volunteer but maybe I do not have the experience to police this. I do have aged experience though and can differentiate between ignorant and stupid. Ignorance can be fixed but stupid is an attitude and can't be fixed. If one will listen to direction and not take it personally then they will learn, if not they will always be stupid. My 2.89 cents adjusted for inflation.

 

[METLMASHER]

This is the perfect opportunity for those who have a problem with the operation of the board to speak their minds. How should those who refuse to be responsible for gaining their own education, their own research, be handled? Should they be coddled? Should they be banned? Should we continue as it once was, answering mindless questions on a daily basis?

I want to know.

Harold

I believe you are speaking to me. I thought you closed that thread, or at least asked me to shut up. Now, I'll give what you ask.

New readers should refrain from asking questions until they understand the basics of refining. If they report that they learn by "hands on", and must ask questions as a result, they can do just as I did when I was trying to learn. They can keep Hoke's book open to the particular page that addresses the issue at hand, and read what it has to say, the very same way they'd read a post on this board. If they're unwilling to do that, I don't want them on the board, as they are nothing short of a distraction and a waste of time for those who contribute freely.

Do NOT coddle those who won't read. Tell them, politely, that it is incumbent upon them to learn refining by reading, that asking questions before they understand the basics is not allowed. Be firm, but be polite.

If they value their presence here, they'll damned well get on with doing so. I'm about to chop a few heads.

The next guy (moron) that opens his fat yeep with any kind of insult or left handed "compliment" is getting axed. There will be no further taunting of ANYONE.

End of discussion.

Pretty clear to me.

edited for quotes.

 

[Harold_V]

The next guy (moron) that opens his fat yeep with any kind of insult or left handed "compliment" is getting axed. There will be no further taunting of ANYONE.

That comment (moron) is one I regret. I've tried to address readers with more courtesy than that, and would like to think that my insinuating readers of any stripe are morons I do not find acceptable. I will address them as such once banned, as, in such a case, I deem it appropriate, although not necessarily the polite thing to do.

Having said that, the message that was hoped to be delivered is that readers should refrain from personal attacks (don't do as I did, do as I say). I set a bad example, and for that I apologize.

Key to getting along on this board is to not escalate an issue that has gone south. If a response doesn't agree with your assessment, best to thank the contributor for his/her efforts and move on. Doesn't much matter what the problem may be, or who is involved, there's always going to be someone who sees things differently, which has the potential to start heated discussions. End result is angry individuals in split camps. Not healthy for the board, nor productive for those who hope to learn.

The reason I've asked about the method I prefer in moderating is that others seem to think that those who can't/won't behave need three strikes before they are banned. I don't agree, and I'll NEVER agree. Here's my logic. Any individual who is here for the right reason understands that this is a golden opportunity to be tutored by those who have knowledge in the field of refining. For that, they should be able to put their attitude in neutral and absorb all that has and will be offered, all without making waves, disrupting the forum. To allow three strikes is akin to giving permission to each and every reader two opportunities to disrupt the forum without fear of repercussions. That I do not like, and will not tolerate. I'd leave the board before I had to beg and plead for individuals to behave.

Anyone ever taken note that once an individual is banned, the acrimony that related to that particular problem came to an abrupt halt? I have, and consider that to be the desired end to such problems. I see no need in dragging out that which is inevitable.

Please note that I am not addressing those who are here for the right reasons. The vast majority of readers contribute what they can, and behave properly. Such individuals know they have no need to live in fear of being banned--they're not here for the fight, unlike some. Many of them are the individuals who support the heavy hand in keeping order on the board, as, to them, all of this makes sense, and they agree that keeping things peaceful is in their best interest.

Again, I am asking for comments. If the majority prefer the board be run in a more permissive fashion, I need to know.

Harold

 

[Barren Realms 007]

Harold,

I feel that anyone that has been on the forum for any length of time understands that you are doing a service for the forum. And a good one at that IMHO. You hear no complaints from anyone that has been around here for a while. There is always going to be someone that starts a discussion about why we don't give more answers or treat people nicer, but after they have been around they come to understand why the forum is run like it is, or they leave. Not a big loss to the forum IMHO, it is the loss to the ones that don't conform and leave. Please continue what you are doing the way you are handling things. And quit worrying that you are stepping on someone toes too hard because you are not. There always has to be a principle or dean to administer the school and you do a fine job of it.

 

[Geo]

You can please all of the people some of the time or you can please some of the people all of the time but you can't please all of the people all of the time. There are so many different points of view in the world that most anything you do will offend someone. It's considered rude in America not to shake hands when meeting someone and most will take offense if the other person refuses to shake hands. In Japan, offering the hand for a handshake is very offensive. How do you manage a community (even an online community) with so many different points of view? YOU, as an individual, will have to decide for yourself where to fight your battles.

 

[jason_recliner]

This is the perfect opportunity for those who have a problem with the operation of the board to speak their minds. How should those who refuse to be responsible for gaining their own education, their own research, be handled? Should they be coddled? Should they be banned? Should we continue as it once was, answering mindless questions on a daily basis?

I want to know.

Since you've explicitly asked for opinions from the ranks, I'll offer mine.

A balance is required. Those who refuse to learn anything for themselves should definitely be shown the door. A recent post included, in effect, "Yeah, I saw Hoke's book and there was nothing relevant." Or "tell me the answer, I don't want to search". I would give one warning before kicking them to the curb.

Like a new post a week or so ago, late at night from a member demanding answers; everything gathered, collated and formatted just so. He said he'd already looked so would not accept anything less than his specific demand. Readers probably know who I mean. Without even a single reply yet, I went to bed wondering if he would be a member when I logged on the next day. It was right to receive the answers he did, and it was right for him to be booted.

On the flip side, we have a teacher taking a student under his wing and giving 1:1 support for a specific goal. And that's really nice to see that mentoring.

Most of us are willing to help someone who is willing to help themselves. But content here can also be hard to find. This is a massive forum now. You can search for what seems several millennia and not find what you're after. Or worse, conflicting results. For example, searching for xxxx can return pages of discussion about looking for xxxx. Cleaning up old posts is a noble venture. But possibly analogous to swatting single wasps at a BBQ with your thong (footwear) while the queen in the nest pumps out seven more.

I've been here about a year and of course am still quite inexperienced (but hopefully generally not dangerous to myself or others). I read this forum daily for everything I can gather, and try to follow the posts that are not yet relevant to me. Half of it goes over my head, especially when the formulae and reactions come out. But some will always go in, and even a keyword may stick out which makes the post easier to find later. Sometimes one just has to ask. The place would be pretty quiet without any questions. I know I've asked questions that have been answered before and appreciate the grace shown me by those who have answered, often in great length, and usually by the same few.

So where's the balance? I honestly think the hammer wielders here have it pretty close. Recognise that there's a human and show a little grace and mercy, but "don't take no crap". That's what I have seen consistently since I joined. I've never seen anyone booted for disagreeing, only for being a jerk (or unscrupulous). It's not too hard to tell within a post or two whether someone is trying or lazy (or even just a troll). So as for opening answers, yes tell people to search. Provide a link if it will help. I've seen answers that were brutally short and sharp and those that are long winded and have no issue with either.

What can be done to stem the flow of people who join at 12:00 and ask how to recover mess at 12:02? Rather than how to deal with them, what can be done to prevent them? One thing that baffles me is that I've seen posters say they have read for a while before joining. I do not find that possible. When not logged in, I cannot read anything. The ability to read as a guest, with no write privileges, might allow those to spend a bit of time here and see the Getting Started threads. Apparently Google can read posts. Perhaps administration could consider the merits vs risks of allowing read-only access.

That's my humble 500µg worth of Au.

 

[Geo]

Sorry for all the cliche's but, you can lead a horse to water but you can't make it drink. A new member will not be banned for asking a question (even a silly,stupid,redundant,asinine question) on the first offense. It's how they react to the answer given. If a member is given a simple answer of "search for it", it is probably something that should be easily found. If the answer is a little more direct giving instructions on where to look for answers, it could mean the answer will be a little harder to find. If the reply consist of anything close to "why can't I get a direct answer for a direct question"? The writing could already be on the wall for that member. Everyone of us, from the first to the last should be grateful to be here and should not expect anymore than to be able to read and absorb the information already here. I am still filled with gratitude every time I ask a question and someone gives me an answer. I have been here a few years and have asked quite a few questions. Not all were answered as well as I had hoped and some were not answered at all but that's because there may not have been an answer. What ever the reason, no one is obliged to answer anyone's questions. If you receive and answer to a question, even if it's one you do not want to hear, it should always earn a "thank you for responding" and not some tirade about "why can't I get a straight answer"?

 

[solar_plasma]

Harold, you lead the forum with consistent caring authority and that is the only way that works.

In a classroom or in the schoolyard I am someone, the pupils can have fun with. In the laboratory when chemicals are on the table, fun is gone! No second warning, no discussion. Even and because I like the kids, I have to be hard. Exactly 99,9% do understand this in a school.

Since we are no school, but mostly adult and finished personalities, it is more difficult here. This forum is comparable to a voluntary firebrigade. Many a man who joins has his problems with accepting authority. But just like the firebrigade: Joining and leaving is free. The staying requires to understand and follow written and unwritten rules or people get hurt.

Thank you very much for your work being the caring authority on the board!

 

[Harold_V]

I would give one warning before kicking them to the curb.

That is the concept I've pursued, although on many occasions their first infraction results in being banned.
One of the problems we have is in new registrants not reading our directives. We're pondering how to address that issue now, but the solution may just make things worse, as a huge page of "Don'ts" becomes easy to ignore, so new readers will click that they have read our missives and assume all is well, then proceed to do "business as usual" on the internet, which in many cases includes using unacceptable language and flaming others with whom they may not agree. That, of course, constitutes a basis for immediate dismissal. None of the moderators (I consider myself a moderator, not an administrator) are bound to accept less than polite exchanges with readers, and should be shown respect, as, without moderators, this board would be in total chaos in short order. That applies to all readers, by the way. They, too, are entitled to respect. Lest some not understand, flaming is not permitted on this board. Readers who show disrespect for others may not have the option of future cooperation, as I tend to ban instantly in such a case.

Assuming the individual in question is borderline, I post, detailing the infraction and making mention that such behavior is not acceptable. I then ask if there is an understanding, explaining that my comments are not rhetorical in nature, that I expect an answer. That provides an opportunity for the individual to rethink his/her position and make a choice between accepting the terms to which they had agreed by signing on, or to be banned. To provide a second chance is, in my mind, totally stupid----as those who prefer the fight will simply come back with even more inflammatory comments, as has been proved time and again. By contrast, those who understand that their behavior isn't acceptable, and maybe even that they meant no offense, acquiesce and offer their cooperation. Without that, they're gone. I want it to be known, if individuals are given three strikes, I will no longer offer my services as a moderator. I have no interest in engaging in such exchanges, secure in the knowledge that they end with being banned, anyway. Why not get it over and get back to business as usual?

Like a new post a week or so ago, late at night from a member demanding answers; everything gathered, collated and formatted just so. He said he'd already looked so would not accept anything less than his specific demand. Readers probably know who I mean.

That very post is the root of this situation. I am unwilling to allow a reader to go off on others, and to repeat that when he has been addressed by a moderator, as was the case in that thread. I banned him, but that was met with considerable irritation by one individual. Should I change, or should I leave? This board will run politely, or it will run without me. I witnessed the results of my brief absence some time back.

Please understand I have the utmost respect for you guys, you who are here for the right reasons. As I said, my comments have not been addressed towards you, but how this board operates certainly makes a difference in how you will progress, as a chaotic atmosphere does not promote learning.

Harold

 

[patnor1011]

Since you are one of the "founding fathers" or founding members it is you who should decide how this place will be managed. End of discussion. This is not any "democracy" and nobody is entitled to be here. It is a privilege to have all this information on this forum at our disposal without having to spend a cent. It only require minimum of cooperation and willingness to learn.
Membership of this board is not something which is granted to anyone who wish to be here, anyone who want to bend the rules to his liking is free to log out and never come back.

What would this forum be without you - one of very few people here who spent most of their life successfully working on gold refining field. Your experience and expertise is what is valued here and it was you (and just a few other members) who gave away all their knowledge and hard work to most of us.

 

[patnor1011]

I would solve this issue rather quick. What about that new members will simply be not allowed to post for some amount of time. Week, month... That will sort out desperate youtube refiners with their drive-by posting.
I have seen this sort of requirement on many places and it actually help with calming down people with entitlement problems.