Electrochemistry Help a newbie, reverse electroplating

[LarsL]

Hi, First of all, what a fantastic forum! I will be able to find a lot of information here and hopefully contribute a bit too.

I have some questions about plated material and reverse electroplating.

Is there any way to find out the thickness of the plating, this to be able to calculate the gold content of the material that can be extracted?

In the reverse electroplating it is reported that it requires the use of sulfuric acid, a basket cage of copper (which is loaded on the plus side) and a cathode made of lead (which is loaded on the negative side). Can a basket of stainless steel used instead?

Can the method of reverse plating be used to extract gold from CPU´s`?

Does it has to be concentrated sulfuric acid, or may use, for example battery acid if you give the process more time? This would facilitate the availability of acid.

When you read about it, as it seems, a part of the gold is falling trapped into the acid. Is there any way to get the gold on the cathode?

How many times can acid reused?

Looking forward to answers!

 

[Woodworker1997]

All of your questions can be answered by using the search bar.

Good luck! And happy reading.

Derek.

 

[solar_plasma]

Is there any way to find out the thickness of the plating

The only question worth answering.
With some experience you can guess it by the colour and by research in the forum.
You can process a probe of this material and see how much gold you get.
But you could also use a solution with a defined etching rate (research patents fx. iodine etching) and watch how long it will take till the goldlayer starts to disapear.

 

[jeneje]

Hi, First of all, what a fantastic forum! I will be able to find a lot of information here and hopefully contribute a bit too.

I have some questions about plated material and reverse electroplating.

Is there any way to find out the thickness of the plating, this to be able to calculate the gold content of the material that can be extracted?

In the reverse electroplating it is reported that it requires the use of sulfuric acid, a basket cage of copper (which is loaded on the plus side) and a cathode made of lead (which is loaded on the negative side). Can a basket of stainless steel used instead?

Can the method of reverse plating be used to extract gold from CPU´s`?

Does it has to be concentrated sulfuric acid, or may use, for example battery acid if you give the process more time? This would facilitate the availability of acid.

When you read about it, as it seems, a part of the gold is falling trapped into the acid. Is there any way to get the gold on the cathode?

How many times can acid reused?

Looking forward to answers!

First, welcome to the forum.
To answer your questions, Yes it is best to use CP 98% concentrated sulfuric acid (H2SO4) the basket is made from 60mesh copper, cathode is made from lead. The gold will fall out as black powder in the bottom of the cell. Battery acid is NOT RECOMMENDED for gold cells. Some gold will attach to the cathode but when dry can be scraped off. CP H2SO4 can be re-used over and over just add more to the cell when needed.

Watch the heat, as H2SO4 will get hot while using the cell.

There is a lot of information here on the forum for this process, just type in sulfuric cell or gold cell,

Ken

 

[bswartzwelder]

Lasersteve is probably the most knowledgeable person on the forum when it comes to reverse electroplating. Find a post by him, and follow the links to his website. He has all the items you will need for sale and the price is very reasonable. He also has many different videos showing this and other procedures. Being a newbie, you will discover most of the work has already been done for you, but YOU have to put forth the effort to find it. It is an unwritten (but very well documented) rule around here that questions will be answered, but you will not be spoon fed answers. That responsibility fall squarely on your shoulders. Take it from one who has been here a few years. I learned the same way you will learn if you want to put forth the effort.

Good luck, be safe, and welcome to the forum.

 

[LarsL]

Thanks all for your replies and thanks for the welcoming.

Obviously, it is so, that one should search before asking. I also found some answers when I searched before, but not all. Maybe it's because English is not my native language, maybe I did not put in enough time searching.

There is another aspect also. Some of the chemicals used in the process are hard to get where I live. Concentrated sulfuric acid, for example, much more difficult, than I guess they are some other countries. That's why I asked for alternative chemicals. Another aspect is that it is quite scary ingredients for a guy who had economics and history as favorite topics in school, not chemistry.

The question is, therefore, if I should spend time trying to recover gold myself or put the effort getting hold of materials and purchasing recycling services? If it pays off in time and money to recover the pm yourself?

What also would have been fun to read what different members have succeeded in extracting in pm, and what time they have put in to doing it? But I'll check and see if I can find that information.

Fantastic forum and ones more, thanks for the welcoming!

 

[solar_plasma]

Welcome! You got the point! :lol:

H2SO4 can be concentrated by vaporizing the H2O. Never tried it, but there must be threads about it on the forum.

Small scale is very time consuming, but there are many pro's on the forum who earn good money. I have often read, they were processing some kg up to some hundred pounds.I guess that's the scale, where it starts to be economical.

 

[bswartzwelder]

We call it a hobby for a reason. It's something we like to do in our spare time. However, any hobby that can be profitable is even more fun. The costs are going to be offset by many factors such as safety equipment, cost of chemicals and supplies, how good you are at scrounging, how good of a supply of your base materials containing PM's and other things too numerous to mention. I started by trying the easiest and most foolproof method AP on mostly bare circuit boards. I was plesantly surprised and that has led me to consider other methods. If you want to try reverse electroplating, look up posts about the Shor Simplicity System. I haven't tried it yet, just gathering things I'll need right now. But it doesn't require and sulfuric acid. That should make it a little cheaper, and much safer. But, along with the advantages, I suspect it has drawbacks like not being as fast or not working with all types of scrap. As with any process, you have to study it and make a determination to see if it is better suited to the direction you want to travel. There are always alternatives, only you can tell which one will work best for you based on what's available, and what you have to work with. Good luck.

 

[LarsL]

Thanks for the advice, I'll definitely look into Shor Simplicity System.

I'll try to explain my perspective on the recycling issue. I have a business and we purchase and refine approximately a ton of silver every year. We have done that some years now. The profit from the scrap business is to enable to specific investments in precious metals. My point and reason of the scrap business is from an investment perspective. I buy scrap materials, in order to generate profits that can be kept in the precious metals from an investment perspective. I see it as an interesting form of saving.

We buy analysis and purification services for AG since it simply would not be profitable to do it ourselves. The time we would have needed to spend on refining, we can instead spend on purchasing material. However, I have full understanding for the hobby aspect. The challenge of do-it-yourself, and perfecting the processes for refining.

In the aspect of gold recovery from electronics and from other (gold-plated) material, (which we look at and consider), reverse plating seems to be the type of process which seems least complicated and least time consuming. This could for that reason be worth doing ourselves.

Thank you once again!
I really appreciate the advices!

 

[solar_plasma]

Maybe you should consider to read forum threads, patents etc. about

leaching and etching methods
iodine
cyanide
...

AP (typically high grade gold plate)
HCl/chlorox
AR

btw. the sulfuric cell (typically low-grade gold plate) works fast, is easy and is very proven, while there is much discussing, guessing and believing around shor

I guess there is no one sentence answer to your questions, but you should research all those methods and choose those, which will match best to your setting.

Just for the record: ofcourse all methods have their own dangers and require knowledge about the processes and especially safety.

 

[LarsL]

Solar_plasma, Thanks for your reply!

I'll probably try to read my way through the forum. Finding a simple method for reverse electroplating of primarily gold plated materials (metal objects). I've already come up with a method to calculate the surface area of the plated surface on uneven objects. Now it only remains to be able to determine the thickness of such gold plated material.

For PCB , CPU´s, RAM´s it will probably be easier, more time-saving and therefore less expensive to pay for the recycling and recovery. Instead, put the effort on classifying the material correctly to be able to pay accurate for it. As an alternative spend the time on purchases.

In terms of special chemicals, sulfuric acid, cyanide, etc. It´s extremely difficult to obtain and requires a lot of permits where I live. A simple and not too time-consuming method for reverse electroplating would, is therefore preferable.

 

[butcher]

LarsL,
just keep studying, what you are looking for is here, take the guide to the forum found in the general chat section, follow the links, and keep studying your Hokes book and the forum, we have discussed every thing you are looking for and more.

 

[Nelson82]

am new in HK and do not know where to go to refine 5 KG which i came with, i came with it as a trial, but seems everything looks so different hence am coming from Dubai. Please can someone direct me.

 

[Geo]

am new in HK and do not know where to go to refine 5 KG which i came with, i came with it as a trial, but seems everything looks so different hence am coming from Dubai. Please can someone direct me.

i could direct you on where to go but good manners dictate that i should remain quiet.

 

[bswartzwelder]

I hope I didn't say anything wrong. I DO NOT endorse the Shor System. I DO endorse you looking for information about it on the forum and the Internet. There is a wealth of information available whereby you can save yourself many hundreds of dollars. By the way, ALL the people who have been forum members for any length of time agree on one thing, READ. Educate yourself.

 

[LarsL]

I hope I didn't say anything wrong. I DO NOT endorse the Shor System. I DO endorse you looking for information about it on the forum and the Internet. There is a wealth of information available whereby you can save yourself many hundreds of dollars. By the way, ALL the people who have been forum members for any length of time agree on one thing, READ. Educate yourself.

Bswartzwelder, you have said nothing wrong. If I've been quiet, it's because I’ve been reading

It takes some time to get through all the information. Partly because English is not my native language. In particular the chemical formulas and abbreviations was really not a part of what you learned in the English lessons.

Have also received fantastic advices from a member on the forum via PM, thanks John, you’re a great guy!

I will look at Shor systems and their solution. What I do miss is some tutorial videos from the company.

A question would possibly be if there is anyone here on the forum has made reverse plating in a larger scale?

Another thing that puzzles is whether it somewhere there drawings available on how to build equipment. Not just a glass jar, curved copper plate and alligator clips. What does not appeal to me with such a solutions I've seen here, is that you have to pour the acid out of the bath. I really don’t want to sway with a container of acid. I would much rather be able to draw it off.

What I also cannot find is a confirmation if the reverse plating could work with lower acid concentration or other more harmless chemicals. If the process would take longer time, that would be perfectly okay for me. Call me a coward, but I have a tremendous respect for the concentrated acid. If you have seen a car battery explode, you can easily get fantasies on what would happened with a solution with concentrated sulfuric acid, which was short-circuited or overheated. The whole thing is also a question of permits for hazardous chemicals vs. (if possible) use less hazardous ones. where I live.

Thanks so far, continue reading .....

 

[Rreyes097]

Ok so I have a quick question. ... I just read that battery acid isn't recommended in reverse electro plating. I bought sulphuric acid from the auto parts store, are they not one and the same?

 

[butcher]

Sulfuric acid used as an electrolyte in lead cell (automotive) batteries is about 33% H2SO4 and approximately 67% water.

Dilute sulfuric acid can be concentrated, but it would be better to just purchase the concentrated acid for the cell.

Water in the concentrated sulfuric acid stripping cell to recover gold becomes a problem; water in the electrolyte will dissolve base metals into solution. Even small amounts of water can become a problem.

 

[Rreyes097]

So where might I find the sulphuric acid that is needed? I live in North California.

 

[steyr223]

Do a search on drain cleaners
You are asking questions that are already posted
And answered 100's of times ,Iknow , a grip of them were my post

Read a bunch come back and talk about what you have learned ,qoute a few posts so we know your trying and we will answer more and more of your questions

With out a little time in between the answers they would go in one ear and out the other ....patients is a virtue...
I can't believe I just said that
Hope this helps
Steyr223 rob