How to separate silver from tungsten?

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bhilton

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Joined
Jan 17, 2024
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Location
London, Ontario
A friend gave me a pile of silver and tungsten shavings. I read tungsten will dissolve in nitric and copper is going to displace/replace both silver and tungsten based on the reactivity series. What else can I do, other than a nitric boil?
 
I’m not sure where the copper comes from but tungsten shouldn’t dissolve in nitric so if you do have some copper there then that will dissolve first and then the silver will dissolve and to recover your silver cement the silver out with copper .
 
A friend gave me a pile of silver and tungsten shavings. I read tungsten will dissolve in nitric and copper is going to displace/replace both silver and tungsten based on the reactivity series. What else can I do, other than a nitric boil?

Pictures of the "shavings" you have would be helpful
I read tungsten will dissolve in nitric

Although nitric "may" dissolve "some" tungsten it (nitric) has a VERY difficult time dissolving it (tungsten) so MOST of it should not dissolve
copper is going to displace/replace both silver and tungsten based on the reactivity series

This is not true - copper will cement out (displace/replace) ONLY the silver & NOT the tungsten

Therefore - even if "some" tungsten dissolves in the nitric copper will cement out (recover) ONLY the silver leaving the tungsten (IF "some" W does dissolve) in solution

Kurt
 
A friend gave me a pile of silver and tungsten shavings. I read tungsten will dissolve in nitric and copper is going to displace/replace both silver and tungsten based on the reactivity series. What else can I do, other than a nitric boil?
There have been some threads in the past about CPUs with gold plated tungsten heatspreders, just search the forums.
 
A mixture as described above can be separated by using cold diluted nitric acid. The silver will react to form silver nitrate solution. Tungsten will not react with cold dilute nitric acid. Remove the tungsten by filtration. The silver nitrate solution can then be treated as preferred, cementation with copper for metallic silver, or treatment with salt to form silver chloride.
 
I’m not sure where the copper comes from but tungsten shouldn’t dissolve in nitric so if you do have some copper there then that will dissolve first and then the silver will dissolve and to recover your silver cement the silver out with copper .
I was implying using copper to cement silver from the resulting silver nitrate. I did some reading and I was under the impression Tungsten would dissolve with the silver in Nitric acid.
 
Pictures of the "shavings" you have would be helpful


Although nitric "may" dissolve "some" tungsten it (nitric) has a VERY difficult time dissolving it (tungsten) so MOST of it should not dissolve


This is not true - copper will cement out (displace/replace) ONLY the silver & NOT the tungsten

Therefore - even if "some" tungsten dissolves in the nitric copper will cement out (recover) ONLY the silver leaving the tungsten (IF "some" W does dissolve) in solution

Kurt

Kurt, I will share pictures as soon as I can. Thanks for your reply!

I had read this, before posting in the forum: Tungsten is a relatively inactive metal. It does not combine with oxygen at room temperatures. It does corrode (rust) at temperatures above 400°C (700°F. It does not react very readily with acids, although it does dissolve in nitric acid or aqua regia. Source: https://www.chemistryexplained.com/elements/T-Z/Tungsten.html

I also had read this, where Tungsten is higher on the reactivity series than Silver. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Reactivity_series

I'm curious, why wouldn't copper push both Silver & Tungsten out?
 
Kurt, I will share pictures as soon as I can. Thanks for your reply!

I had read this, before posting in the forum: Tungsten is a relatively inactive metal. It does not combine with oxygenat room temperatures. It does corrode (rust) at temperatures above 400°C (700°F. It does not react very readily with acids, although it does dissolve in nitric acid or aqua regia. Source: https://www.chemistryexplained.com/elements/T-Z/Tungsten.html

I also had read this, where Tungsten is higher on the reactivity series than Silver. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Reactivity_series

I'm curious, why wouldn't copper push both Silver & Tungsten out?
It depends on the solution I guess.
Tungsten might be too close to Copper to cement out.
 
If this is an alloy, the ratio of silver to tungsten is important. Do you know?
I do not believe it is an alloy, I was told it was silver pressed onto tungsten and then a milling machine shaved some off, which created both silver & tungsten shavings. They are all covered in oil and dirty too, so i will roast them in my incinerating oven before.

I have not opened the containers and closely inspected them yet, but i'll surely post when I do.
 
Glad it is not an alloy as they take special methods depending on the composition. Once cleaned, i would test a small sample to see if the methods described above will be suitable.
 
on the Internet they write that it dissolves a mixture of nitric and hydrofluoric acids...
but in reality, I think breaking it up into smaller pieces and boiling it longer in nitric acid is a real working solution for the amateur refiner.
 
on the Internet they write that it dissolves a mixture of nitric and hydrofluoric acids...
but in reality, I think breaking it up into smaller pieces and boiling it longer in nitric acid is a real working solution for the amateur refiner.
Maybe, but are there good reasons to dissolve it?
I really cringe with the thought of HF.
 
Well, I quickly went through the Russian-speaking Internet and got this information.
although the main message is that the material is very difficult to process for an amateur and it is worth taking on it only if you got it for free.
:)
here the question is different, are there these contacts at all?
chips in oil...
it's more like lathe waste because the tip for the cutters is also made of an alloy of tungsten and cobalt, for example,
and is soldered with solder containing silver.
 
A mixture as described above can be separated by using cold diluted nitric acid.

This will depend on the size of the W/Ag shavings (which is why I asked for pictures)

If they are "large" & thick he may well need to literally BOIL them in nitric to leach the Ag out of the "sintered" W/Ag matrix

If they are small & "thin" nitric - without "boiling" may well work - some heat (just not boiling) will likely still need to be applied in order to "load" the nitric with Ag --- in which case the tungsten will go undissolved & the silver nitrate can be filtered/washed out of the undissolved tungsten

Read what I posted in this thread yesterday --------

https://goldrefiningforum.com/threa...dmium-oxide-contacts.32311/page-2#post-377791

Kurt
 
I also had read this, where Tungsten is higher on the reactivity series than Silver. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Reactivity_series

I'm curious, why wouldn't copper push both Silver & Tungsten out?

Because - in theory - more reactive metals (metals higher on the reactivity series) "should" cement out the less reactive metals (metals lower on the reactivity series) due to the ion exchange of the more reactive metal going into solution thereby pushing out the less reactive metal

BUT - that is not always true & or the case - due to a number of factors

Examples; --------

Zinc &/or aluminum are higher on the reactivity series then iron - so in theory - you should be able to cement iron that is dissolved in acid out of the acidic solution with zinc or aluminum --- however - due to the acidic environment (iron dissolved in acid) the zinc or aluminum will not cement actual iron out of the solution - rather - it will only change the "oxidative state" of the iron resulting in the iron precipitating out as a gooey rust like iron oxide & not actual iron

Silver is higher on the reactivity series - so in theory - you should be able to cement gold or platinum dissolved in AR out with silver - however - due to the chlorides in the AR dissolved gold or platinum the silver forms a silver chloride crust on the surface of the silver preventing the silver from going into solution which prevents the ion exchange from taking place to push out the gold or platinum

That is just two examples of why "in theory" cementation should work but does not - due to "other" factors that come into play

So - now - although tungsten is below copper & therefore in theory should cement the tungsten out it doesn't

Exactly what the "other" factors taking place here are (in this case) I don't know - I just know that tungsten dissolved in a silver nitrate solution will not cement the tungsten out

I know this from having processed MANY kilos of W/Ag contact points by BOILING them in nitric for MANY hours in nitric to leach the silver out of the tungsten - & though the vast majority of the W goes undissolved after BOILING for MANY hour "some" tungsten does go into solution & the tungsten does not cement out along with the silver

Kurt
 
I do not believe it is an alloy, I was told it was silver pressed onto tungsten and then a milling machine shaved some off, which created both silver & tungsten shavings. They are all covered in oil and dirty too, so i will roast them in my incinerating oven before.

I have not opened the containers and closely inspected them yet, but i'll surely post when I do.
If it's just silver pressed onto pure tungsten, 50% nitric 50% water will easily dissolve away the silver and not do much, if anything, to the tungsten. Pure tungsten is very resistant to most acids.
 
If it's just silver pressed onto pure tungsten, 50% nitric 50% water will easily dissolve away the silver and not do much, if anything, to the tungsten. Pure tungsten is very resistant to most acids.

Per the bold print (above quote) somewhat true but not entirely true

As I said yesterday (per bold print in below quote)
This will depend on the size of the W/Ag shavings (which is why I asked for pictures)

If they are "large" & thick he may well need to literally BOIL them in nitric to leach the Ag out of the "sintered" W/Ag matrix

If they are small & "thin" nitric - without "boiling" may well work - some heat (just not boiling) will likely still need to be applied in order to "load" the nitric with Ag --- in which case the tungsten will go undissolved & the silver nitrate can be filtered/washed out of the undissolved tungsten

Read what I posted in this thread yesterday --------

https://goldrefiningforum.com/threa...dmium-oxide-contacts.32311/page-2#post-377791

Kurt

Over the 10 years that I did refining for a living I processed MANY kilos of W/Ag contact points - like the ones pictured in the OP of this thread (second picture = pic to the right)

https://goldrefiningforum.com/threa...hese-are-silver-cadmium-oxide-contacts.32311/

Those points come out of LARGE industrial "hand thrown" circuit brakers (like circuit brakers in your house electrical service panel - just much larger in industrial applications)

ALL "hand thrown" circuit brakers will have the W/Ag type contact points in them - whether household or industrial the only difference being the size of the points

Having processed MANY kilos of these contact points I can tell you it is no "easy" process to recover the silver from them

It is not as simple as simply putting them in a beaker with 50/50 nitric/D-water & applying "a little" bit of heat as you would with say sterling silver

Because of the VERY HIGH melt point of W (tungsten) Ag & W cannot simply be melted into an alloy - so they make them by sintering the W/Ag - which is a process of mixing actual W metal powder & actual Ag metal powder together & then compressing that mixed powder under VERY HIGH pressure & heat which results in a "matrix" of very fine particles of W metal powder - VERY densely compacted with the very fine particles of Ag metal powder

So - because the W & Ag metal particles are so densely compacted together - simply putting the sintered W/Ag in a beaker with 50/50 nitric/D-water along with a "bit" of heat will not separate "all" the Ag from the W --- it will only dissolve the Ag at the very surface of the W/Ag matrix & that is because your nitric/D-water solution cannot penetrate past the very densely compacted W to get at the silver deeper (beyond the surface) of the W/Ag matrix

Therefore - kinetic energy is "required" in order to get the nitric to penetrate past the compressed W & dissolve away the Ag compressed deeper in the W/Ag matrix

So - to provide this kinetic energy you MUST LITERALLY BOIL the W/Ag matrix in the nitric AND it takes MANY hours of BOILING to "fully" penetrate the matrix & leach ALL the silver out of that matrix

To put this somewhat in perspective - depending on the batch size - &/or the size of the pieces of the W/Ag matrix it can take anywhere from a "full" day (24 hours) to as much as 4 - 5 days of BOILING the matrix in nitric

Example; - the points out of household circuit brakers are only about 4 or 5 mm square or round & about 2 - 2.5 mm thick

If you put about a 1/4 kilo (250 - 300 grams) of these very small points in a beaker you have to BOIL them in the nitric for "at least" 24 hours to get "all" the silver leached out of them --- increase the batch size will increase the time of BOILING them in the nitric --- increase the size of the matrix (such as larger industrial points) will increase the BOILING time

Example; - a kilo of the larger industrial points will take 2 - 2.5 days of BOILING them in the nitric & even then you will likely need to test them to see if all the silver is leached out (to be explained later in this post) & if not may need to BOIL them in the nitric for another day or 2

This is why I asking the OP for pics of his "shavings" --- if they are more then 1 mm in thickness he will likely need to bring the leaching up to a FULL BOIL to leach all the silver out --- if they are less then 1 mm in thickness he can likely get away with less then a full on boil but will still likely need to bring it up to a "simmering" boil - once the initial reaction from dissolving the silver at the "surface" of the matrix dies down in order to get "all" the silver leached out

Again - pics of the material the OP has would help in getting him headed in the right direction as leaching the silver out of the sintered W/Ag is "not" as simple as putting it in a beaker with 50/50 nitric/D-water &/or applying "a bit" of heat (though that "may" be the case IF the shavings a small/fine enough)

Now then - so how do tell when all the silver is leached out of the W/Ag sintered matrix (when talking about larger pieces like contact points)

As the Ag leaches out of the W matrix the W becomes soft & black - so with small points like household circuit brakers you can use a glass stir rod to see if they will crush apart all the way to the center - if only an outside layer of black W brakes of - leaving a "grey" harder center - you are not done boiling them in the nitric

With the larger industrial points you are better served to fish some of the points out of the beaker to see if you can snap them in half - if you cannot snap them in half they are not even close to done - if you can snap them in half then you want to look at the broken edge & if they are fully black to the center & soft & easy to crush then you have most (if not all) the silver leach out - if on the other hand they do brake in half relatively easy but you see some gray color in the center of the brake you are not done leaching them & need to boil them some more

Also - though the vast majority of the W will go undissolved - due to high temp of "boiling" in the nitric along with the kinetic energy of the boiling "some" W will go into solution however that is not a problem as that small amount of W will stay in solution when you recover the Ag from the silver nitrate

And as a final note; - generally sintered W/Ag runs "about" 30 - 40 % silver with 60 - 70 % tungsten

Kurt
 
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