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that’s diversionary.

Highly successful refiners are able to produce their own acids from scratch. HCL from saltwater. Nitric from air.

I say there’s profit in metals. Yes.

But no man will profit off converters for long. These must be avoided. Getting caught with them with police and arrested may turn out to be the best case scenario for person.

Run. Don’t be another body.
Well, someone will have to do it. you can't pile them all up, we need to recycle our waste. Let's try to do it in a responsible way.
No-one buying cat's will get arrested by the police unless there are laws against handling them by private persons.
there are laws against using certain chemicals by private persons, in some countries, but that's another thing.
Any respectable and certified company will have to get them from a to b somehow, right?

Making nitric from air is economical nor environmentally profitable. There are easier ways to produce nitric, and a company can just buy it in big lots, they can never produce at that quantity or speed they need.
For hobbyists it's a different story. You simply can't buy all the chemicals you need and need to be inventive, yet economical.

Don't run, be frugal.
 
I will design a series of mechanisms that I can effectively control from a distance, using the Mindstorms software and Lego hardware from my youth (seriously, I’m not joking).
as well as used AI to determine the amount of precious metals initially in each converter.
I can build a plasma smelter with a large convex mirror, albeit not as efficient or precise as the multi-million dollar equipment others possess 😉
From these three statements alone I realize you will go far in the refining world.

How can AI determine the amount of PM's in a catalytic converter that has been used for an unspecified amount of time or miles? Only sampling and analytical chemistry can give you these answers.

Hoke would disagree with you.
I think not. She wrote this book for jewelers and it was written years before catalytic converters existed. Jewelry is a concentrated form of scrap and the easiest for a small jeweler to process with the proper methods, which she outlines in the book. Catalytic converters are not, by any means, a high concentration of metals nor is it easy to quantify analytically. The scrap Hoke speaks of is tested on the stone with acids. Try that with a converter.
 
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Seriously man, you need to get back to planet earth.

No serious refiner has the time nor energy to create their own acids and even less the economy.
For anyone half serious it is cheaper to buy at least HCl.
Nitric may be a different story.
Would you be surprised to know that Nitric is actually cheaper by the litre than HCl Ygg?
 
Would you be surprised to know that Nitric is actually cheaper by the litre than HCl Ygg?
It may be, but not to the hobby refiner that have a hard time getting it in the first place.

I have bought it once.
And it was not available unless I bought 20L.
If memory serves me right it was more expensive but not much.
So if you have larger volumes, it would not surprise me much.

Still, I do not consider creating your own HCl very fruitful for refining purposes.
For fun, oh yes ;)
 
This is not a topic for a hobbyist. Chemistry has dangers, yes. People who have business interests, are more dangerous.

No where I have found states this forum is for hobbyists only. There are a great many discussions already posted that are above the hobby level already and well discussed. A good many of those discussions have been adapted by the hobby level refiners to work in a small scale environment as well. It isn’t about hobby’s or professionally so much as it is about open discussions. Each individual has to learn their own level of ability and work from there. Most leave before ever achieving the great dream of building a larger refinery, but a few, they do make it from hobby to professional level. And it is nice to see those few and follow their story. Then some of us, myself included, just wanted to be able to learn how. Following some of those stories can be just as interesting. But saying it isn’t appropriate is way off base, it may not be for everyone, but a proper guide is much better than random experimentation.

Now back to the daily discussion.
 
It may be, but not to the hobby refiner that have a hard time getting it in the first place.

I have bought it once.
And it was not available unless I bought 20L.
If memory serves me right it was more expensive but not much.
So if you have larger volumes, it would not surprise me much.

Still, I do not consider creating your own HCl very fruitful for refining purposes.
For fun, oh yes ;)
Yeah it's really sad to see the price gouging that goes on with Nitric. By the 200 litre barrel it's probably around 50-60 cents per litre. Decant off 2 litres and sell that for $30 per litre and more plus shipping. I do agree- making your own HCL does seem somewhat of a daft exercise, beyond doing it to prove that you can.
 
I think you have misunderstood the plasma arc furnace concept, there is no need of a mirror in them.
Here is links to research gate:
https://www.researchgate.net/figure/Schematic-diagram-of-plasma-arc-furnace_fig1_329900128

https://www.researchgate.net/figure...ur-Westinghouse-plasma-torches_fig5_200702806
No I mean it’s about the temperature achieved. Theoretically, with enough concentrated rays of light, one can achieve a temperature hot enough to vaporize platinum at its focal point.
That’s not productive for what we do here. But, I can cut out the artificial energy required for melting, by using a Mylar-coated convex shape (this only works for small amounts of high value metals, it’s not feasible for iron or steel).
From these three statements alone I realize you will go far in the refining world.

How can AI determine the amount of PM's in a catalytic converter that has been used for an unspecified amount of time or miles? Only sampling and analytical chemistry can give you these answers.


I think not. She wrote this book for jewelers and it was written years before catalytic converters existed. Jewelry is a concentrated form of scrap and the easiest for a small jeweler to process with the proper methods, which she outlines in the book. Catalytic converters are not, by any means, a high concentration of metals nor is it easy to quantify analytically. The scrap Hoke speaks of is tested on the stone with acids. Try that with a converter.
AI can determine the initial quantity of metals in the converter, so what the manufacturer put into it. I get that may change over the life of the converter, but to what degree?

For example, the high-grade converters of a diesel 2014 F-250 are estimated to have 7 grams of platinum, 7 grams of palladium, and 2 grams of rhodium.

The best mixers in Chicago are paying around $500 for that converter right now (and it’s worth over $750 alone in precious metals excluding iridium)

Yet when Rhodium was around $27,000 an oz and palladium around $2,000, the mixers in Chicago only were paying around $1,000 for that exact same converter. Meanwhile, the precious metal content was spot valued close to $3,000.

I do understand that the actual amount of PGMs that are present in the converter will vary. So long term, homogenizing the batch and pinpointing the content with whatever assay is appropriate, will be the way to go.

I want to be able to collect a large group, hedge them in the short term using the futures market, and recover every bit I can. One of the large barriers to this method is the collection of 1,000 lbs at once. That in itself presents a great risk, because there are a multitude of thieves out there. I’ve had converters stolen before, off of vehicles that I hadn’t even processed yet. Now imagine stacking up 500 of them, and the risks that poses.

And hey, one of Hoke’s main influences for writing the book, was because there were several jewelers without knowledge to refine their scrap, and only a few companies to process that scrap. There’s a certain amount of “power to the little guy” tied up in the spirit of her writings. Now days and going forward, most of the PGMs in industrial materials are absolutely going to be produced at the nanoscale. Not in jewelry, but think semiconductors, how are they able to increase memory and efficiency? By decreasing the particle size of the materials used. Therefore, going forward, more and more sources of PGMs will have smaller particles of PGMs, and the ability to process them efficiently will be a key skill in the trade.
 
The author makes statements that are not appropriate for a hobby listing forum like this. There is danger in what he says.

Curiosity killed the cat. He is better off to let one of the established refiners process his materials.

They have scientists with trained bodyguards. He does not.
Hi there. We have all types of refiners on here Agglo. From people who do it for the fun of the reaction, right through to people who actually own refineries and metals businesses. Please don't make the mistake of making assumptions when you're still so early in your journey on here. There's a wealth of knowledge around and people share it because they choose to.

Jon
 
And hey, one of Hoke’s main influences for writing the book, was because there were several jewelers without knowledge to refine their scrap, and only a few companies to process that scrap. There’s a certain amount of “power to the little guy” tied up in the spirit of her writings. Now days and going forward, most of the PGMs in industrial materials are absolutely going to be produced at the nanoscale. Not in jewelry, but think semiconductors, how are they able to increase memory and efficiency? By decreasing the particle size of the materials used. Therefore, going forward, more and more sources of PGMs will have smaller particles of PGMs, and the ability to process them efficiently will be a key skill in the trade.
I'm not sure that you're correct here BAG. There are many uses of PGMs in electronics in many areas other than those you mention. The classic uses are still there, and I'd love to know how and where they are used to increase memory. Do you have some links I could look at?
 
No I mean it’s about the temperature achieved. Theoretically, with enough concentrated rays of light, one can achieve a temperature hot enough to vaporize platinum at its focal point.
That’s not productive for what we do here. But, I can cut out the artificial energy required for melting, by using a Mylar-coated convex shape (this only works for small amounts of high value metals, it’s not feasible for iron or steel).

AI can determine the initial quantity of metals in the converter, so what the manufacturer put into it. I get that may change over the life of the converter, but to what degree?

For example, the high-grade converters of a diesel 2014 F-250 are estimated to have 7 grams of platinum, 7 grams of palladium, and 2 grams of rhodium.

The best mixers in Chicago are paying around $500 for that converter right now (and it’s worth over $750 alone in precious metals excluding iridium)

Yet when Rhodium was around $27,000 an oz and palladium around $2,000, the mixers in Chicago only were paying around $1,000 for that exact same converter. Meanwhile, the precious metal content was spot valued close to $3,000.

I do understand that the actual amount of PGMs that are present in the converter will vary. So long term, homogenizing the batch and pinpointing the content with whatever assay is appropriate, will be the way to go.

I want to be able to collect a large group, hedge them in the short term using the futures market, and recover every bit I can. One of the large barriers to this method is the collection of 1,000 lbs at once. That in itself presents a great risk, because there are a multitude of thieves out there. I’ve had converters stolen before, off of vehicles that I hadn’t even processed yet. Now imagine stacking up 500 of them, and the risks that poses.

And hey, one of Hoke’s main influences for writing the book, was because there were several jewelers without knowledge to refine their scrap, and only a few companies to process that scrap. There’s a certain amount of “power to the little guy” tied up in the spirit of her writings. Now days and going forward, most of the PGMs in industrial materials are absolutely going to be produced at the nanoscale. Not in jewelry, but think semiconductors, how are they able to increase memory and efficiency? By decreasing the particle size of the materials used. Therefore, going forward, more and more sources of PGMs will have smaller particles of PGMs, and the ability to process them efficiently will be a key skill in the trade.
I know there is a concentrated Solar ray power station, in south of Spain I think,it can reach around 5000 C in the focal point.
Plasma torches can reach around 25000C and the ones used in the industry for cutting around 10-15000C.
So Plasma beats Solar even in a focal point, at least here in practical terms on Earth.
 
No where I have found states this forum is for hobbyists only. There are a great many discussions already posted that are above the hobby level already and well discussed. A good many of those discussions have been adapted by the hobby level refiners to work in a small scale environment as well. It isn’t about hobby’s or professionally so much as it is about open discussions. Each individual has to learn their own level of ability and work from there. Most leave before ever achieving the great dream of building a larger refinery, but a few, they do make it from hobby to professional level. And it is nice to see those few and follow their story. Then some of us, myself included, just wanted to be able to learn how. Following some of those stories can be just as interesting. But saying it isn’t appropriate is way off base, it may not be for everyone, but a proper guide is much better than random experimentation.

Now back to the daily discussion.
 

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