liquid gold?

[pazsion]

What scares me about the HCl <hydrogenchloride) drain cleaner you posted the MSDS(?) on is the alcohols (organics), and the ammines (which to me means ammonia type compound's), what you have been working with sounds more dangerous to me than working with nitric acid properly.

As always butcher has the best answer xD But all of you point out various important things.^^this statement is what i came here for. Please tell me what it is in relation to this process(liquid gold or mush...likely a mix of all metals suspended in a gel in the solution), what is wrong, what is a better way, summarize your view and feelings, Note any personal observations, opinion's welcome...Should i avoid it...~why~
Props to buchers and the many others who addressed this. In it's entirety. Alot of what i have learned here i could not have answered in any other way. It was specific to my situation, not in a guide. Or forum post i've seen yet. Maybe related, but not specific enough to address the concerns or issues.

Ammonia and silver oxide(SNAox?)...is dangerous. it can go boom by itself. A previous reply mentioned this, and i've read in wiki and other posts about this and the processes needed to make it happen, fewer discussing how to avoid it or stop/correct it.

Ammonia and chlorine in tap water...dangerous vapors. Must be ventilateted at all times and concentrations kept extremely low even in an outdoor setting. ~Can easily kill you.~

HCL at 10% in this product. less then 1% pw/v of other ingredients...mixing with filtered water, brita..o.01+/-% pw/v of chlorine and reactive metals...per liter of water. 0.500 liters plus 1 ox. cleaner product. with metals present to monitor any immediate action. when diluted completely and let sit for 1 -2 weeks .. adds 1-2 drops sulfiric acid (battery acid-unknown concentration-) and 2-3 caps of coke. which contains phosphoric acid and citric acid, again in unkown concentrations. In a 12oz plastic cup. It's mostly water. Obviously i shouldn't be dealing with anything in unknown concentrations or materials...but beggars can't be choosers, or can we if we have the information available..??. I need to know what works...If i can't find documentation, it'll have to be personal observations at my own risk. With as much safety precautions as possible no matter how ridiculous it may seem at first thought..

At these concentrations...any possible vapors produced with the level of ventilation i have, over 12,000 btu's would be less then 0.001 ppm air concentration. Far below any known health concerns. And much lower then current air concentrations any where on this planet. BTW butcher, by environmental impacts, i meant things that were otherwise illegally dumped or would have ended up in a land fill even though state laws impose fines or charge you to dump it. Any material that can be re-used has no business going near a landfill. Any company who does so for profit should pay-out to their contributors. no matter how small and should be market value unless otherwise noted for quality control...Sure a little bit should go back into the planet...But there are some things that we made, that shouldn't go or be in such high concentrations. I also recycle the acid solution in various stages of dilution. I don't let it dry out. Keep them sealed when possible...always vented room and temp controlled room. Never flushed or poured down a drain or mixed with other mixes or acids etc. It kills fish =c and i love the james river and Chesapeake bay. Anything that would reduce pollutants there...is probably gonna be appreciated by humans and animals xD

Sulfuric acid will break down to nitric acid. as i have read recently...particularly if heated. even by chemical process...With this mix you will want to avoid it. Keep it cool. Monitor of reactivity. Do not directly inhale any ammount. The alchohol's make the vapor action happen faster, and dilute more quickly in air. It also makes it more easily absorbed by your body. Given this. it is still more safe by multitudes of several thousands..over > nitric acid of any volume or concentration.

nitric acid is by it's nature an unstable element. And highly reactive. To everything. Includeing you and the space around it.

If i stop now and add concentrated hcl...even after thorough rinseing... I risk a chemical reaction...hyproammoinia perclorite or something could be made Another boomer, all by itself...highly unstable... <correct anything you feel is wrong. If any silver is present in oxidized form. Which nitric acid would produce.

A weak solution as i have it. would simply break down all materials until the point where the solution neutralizes...Don't be mislead by that. it's still very dangerous to handle or be around without good ventilation...it's the chemical process is no longer very strong. And the oxidation and acids have been converted to some other material. I would have to let this stuff be panned out with filtered or distilled water several times, over a period of time without letting it dry out, in order to deal with it in a more professional manner, and break it further down to gold of more pure form. This is what i intend to do.

The mixture will continue to be diluted and used as an initial break down of raw materials, to separate left over materials and alloys/ rinse /release /precipitation/chleateing agent. Nothing more then water will be added to it and i will label it so.

Yes any more gold i plan to break down will be a separate process. And another thread. Because i'm a noob. And crave human interaction over books or pages of text. Even though we sometimes make pages of text here. It usually addresses questions or uncertainties.Anyone doing such thing as this should be able to do so, as it's some means of closer supervision from more experienced people... I will read as much as i can daily, and observe my results with this mix. I'm finally getting more complete foils after the 3rd half dilution with filtered tap water...I'm guessing the chlorine is reacting with the ammonia and hcl. Maybe even a small ammount of nitric acid...not sure what phosphoric acid and citric acid could break down to. Which is stupid to do. But i have no documentation stating the mix is highly reactive...to metals or other acids. So there is only a bit of any kind of certainty...until i learn more or blow myself up trying...In any case i'd post or somehow document it myself if and when i can. Some how this is aiding in the release of the foils through better reactivity to the nickel /tin and silver? Of the ram chips. and cpu's...

The cpu pins are now completely cleaned down to a copper looking material... still highly magnetic. Is beryilum copper magnetic? I've had a few gold mica? oxidize black in solution, but then when exposed to air it turns gold again...I've re-diped this 3-4 times in the current mix.

The printer cables and gold ? mica, nothing...I'm guessing this is a higher Karet. A guide suggests that a hydrochloride + chlorine should do the trick. ?

Is there anything better then water to help release the gold and other metals from the goo? sugar, silicon/polymer coatings? whatever ingredients that aren't listed that were meant to hold a gel form?? How do we figure out what it could be?

Right now it's kinda this white / yellow colored stuff that settles quickly, gets all over anything in there. Water alone helps, but it's basically shifting it around. I can remove a good ammount of material from it, but it's still in the stored bottles...I wonder how much of what is left in there. I know if i keep rinseing it I get the bits of gold flake, for me, still worth processing. From what i've been hearing i shouldn't add anything else to it. But at what point is it ok...and how will i test it to know?

 

[pazsion]

Sigh! And yet you pursue your idiotic notions with reckless abandon, some of which may do great harm to either you or the environment, all the while ignoring everything that is known to work?
pazsion-----get on with reading Hoke's book, and don't ask more questions until you have a basic understanding. If you find Hoke's work to be less than helpful, you are clearly out of your environment and will struggle endlessly.

You have wasted more than enough of my time on this issue. Put your combative attitude to rest immediately, and read Hoke's book. Read it until you understand what she teaches, then read it again. Mean time, lose the notion that you will re-invent the wheel. Much better qualified people have gone before you and have not done so. What the hell makes you think you can?

Harold

I'm sorry you feel this way, I'm sorry that you feel I am giving some kind of attitude, when actually i'm being completely open and not demanding. I'm simply trying to get specific answers and suggestions by being as specific as possible. Dealing with new members seems to be a stressful thing here. I'm not sure why. But it should not be spread around to other members either. The world is what we make of it at times. We don't need to make it worse, or cause the issue we seek to solve.

I do not proceed with reckless abandon...I ask questions, research and use whatever means possible to gather information enough so until i feel i can put it into action with proper precautions. Otherwise this post wouldn't exist.

Cheer up buddy, there's more learning going on here then some people touch upon in a life time...and it's because you guys are here doing your thing. And new people come here and be noobs. xD

 

[NobleMetalWorks]

I cannot think of one person that has any animosity towards new people or " noobs" as you call them. While we are talking about this, Noobs is really a derogatory term, I wouldn't use that word to describe what you are. You are just simply new to all of this.

It's great you are reading, however reading about the ingredients of a drain cleaner and then posting information about it, does nobody on this forum any good unless you are posting for reasons NOT to use drain cleaner, and making it a warning. There are specific processes for recovering and refining precious metals, and many have been known, and used, for over 800 years. If you think you have found an off the shelf replacement for a process you are attempting to make work for what it is you are trying to do, you are dead wrong. Simply put, again, you need to stop what it is you are doing, right now, stop posting about this process using chemicals and compounds of, that DO NOT WORK and can risk your life and any lives who are close enough to witness and experience your failures. Trial and error is the realm of alchemists, not of chemists. A good inorganic chemist understands, and knows, the resulting reaction and what to expect when combining acids, solutions, metals or anything else we do in the process of recovering and refining. I am not chemist, on the contrary I am a complete amateur when it comes to chemistry, I know this, so instead of going to college and getting a degree in chemistry, I simply follow the well laid out plans, directions, processes of others that came before me. And while I learn more, I add or subtract from my processes those things that will allow me to work more safely, effectively and efficiently. I would suggest you do exactly the same.

HOWEVER, before you do any of that, I have a very important question to ask you. Have you read, or at least started to read, C. M. Hoke? If you have not then you are not doing what it is you need to do, in order to ask questions and effectively communicate what it is you are doing, have attempted to do, or wish to do. It is imperative that you STOP playing around with the solution of "stuff" you have created until you understand what exactly it is you are doing, and even at that, your chemical cocktail might be better to dispose of responsibly, than try to recover any values from it. Why do you insist on continuing to argue your point, or to suggest how to recover any values that might be left in your unknown solution? You have not yet read anything that will allow you to successfully precipitate anything out of your weird solution. It sounds to me as if you have dissolved far more into your solution than what you would have if you used the correct process to recover the values from your scrap. That's what you get for using a drano type product. How can any of us possible know what kinds of compounds your dangerous cocktail has produced, or what polymers, plastics, epoxies or other material is dissolved into your solution? I think you would have to send it to a lab that tests unknown hazmat solutions and even at that, you would probably spend far more money trying to figure out what you have, so you know what to do with it, than any values you might recover from it.

Very dangerous experimentation you are attempting.

And just think, in all the time you have been goofing around with what it is you have, you could have read Hoke, read the exact thread that pertains to the type of recovery process you would need, ask any questions about the process you didn't understand, and recovered AND refined the values from your scrap.

It took me just 2 days to read Hoke the first time, then I read it again, slower. You can in a week, read and understand Hoke with no issues if you can walk, and talk, see and turn pages. Not a loft requirement, she wrote her book specifically for people like you and I who have no prior experience with these things, and she also successfully taught and trained many jewelers, and other people how to do the same. It is the entire point of her book, the reason she wrote it and the reason it has been reprinted and the VERY reason why everyone on this forum who is involved in this type of work, reads it as well. Even the most knowledgeable and experienced people that belong to this forum have read Hoke.

Until you do what the people who have posted on this thread have asked, or told you to do, you are not going to get the answers you desire, nor the attention you might otherwise.

Also, if you are going to quote other people in a thread, you need to quote them using the MyBB code provided. The little bar across the top of the text box you type in has a tab for quoting.

Like this

, so that you can clearly define who said what, what was said, and differentiate it from your own response. It makes it very difficult to follow what you said, and what you are responding to.

You cannot even begin to imagine how frustrating it is for people who have been this stage of learning, when you are just starting to understand, barely, what exactly is going on. And to see you struggling so hard when it can be so easy. When they have given good solid and tested advice, and yet you still refuse to follow any of it.

READ HOKE, don't respond to this thread, just simply read Hoke, then come back. Don't take offense, the criticism you have received is the same you will give once you understand what you do not yet understand.

Scott

Edited for correct example of quoting

 

[qst42know]

Define your goal. Having a goal is vital to a desired result.

Are you looking for a refining method that works, or aimless meandering?

Refining is rather methodical, follow the path and the result is fairly predictable. Substituting complex blends of unnecessary chemicals won't get you to a desired result and no one will waste their time sorting out the mess you've made.

Catering to your musings is not what we do here. We all have better things to do with our time.

 

[butcher]

pazsion,
sorry I read the last posts you made and I could not understand what they were saying, but what I did see was a defensive attitude, like we are somehow against you (which is a misunderstanding on your part), we are trying to help you, and if you cannot see that, we can soon get tired of trying to help you, if you are just going to refuse it.

On the contrary you should be happy to have friends like this on the forum to help, and try to point you in the proper direction to learn refining and recovery, the sooner you begin to listen to your new friends, the sooner you will have good results.

Do not take what we say as something bad, that you would have to defend yourself, listen to the message, and consider it good advice from your new friends, try following it and see if they may just be onto something that you cannot see from the position you are standing in now.

Hokes is found in the book section, you sure are missing out and cheating yourself if you do not read it.

hopefully you have ears and can hear, use your eye's to read (they shall be opened).

Good luck,
your new friend,
Butcher

 

[Harold_V]

Cheer up buddy, there's more learning going on here then some people touch upon in a life time...and it's because you guys are here doing your thing. And new people come here and be noobs. xD

Allow me to be perfectly succinct. I do not suffer fools gladly, and you, sir, are a fool. You think you will revolutionize gold refining, finding that magical elixir that eliminates all the hazards and magically transforms dirty material to pure gold. Ain't gonna happen, and I'm not going to tolerate any more of your idiotic posting. You, clearly, are not here to learn anything---you are here to promote your agenda, one that is not proven in time, and may well be leading those who have little understanding, down the wrong path.

We do not coddle those who persist, and ignore our guidance. If you fancy yourself clever and have no intentions of pursuing refining as it is discussed on this board, you don't fit, and we're not going to make allowances for you.

Why?

Because such readers are disruptive of the forum. Can you not see that this entire thread is a repeat, time and again, of the same admonition, for you to start reading and put your stupid notions on the back burner, at least until you have a basic understanding of refining? How is it you think you can make changes to a process you do not understand?

If you post again, it best be because you are reading Hoke. If you persist by posting yet again one of your less than wise diatribes, I'm going to ban you, and I expect it will be with the gratefulness of those who come here to learn proper procedures. Take note that many of these guys are very serious about their purpose in being here. What they don't want is anyone posting their pie in the sky dreams, sending misleading messages. They hope to learn things that are known to work. No witchcraft, no magic, no alchemy. Just the facts.

Get on with it. Start reading, or leave the forum. You, sir, have wasted all the time you're going to waste in my life.

Harold

 

[goldsilverpro]

pazsion,

I am in total agreement with Harold. I have attempted to make sense of your long drawn-out meaningless posts several times but, after a couple of paragraphs, my brain glazes over. My suggestion is to learn and use the proven processes first. After that, you can experiment with your own improvements. Re-inventing the wheel most always ends in frustration, especially when you don't have the foggiest idea of what you're doing.

Here's the download link for the Hoke book in case you don't have it. It's very easy reading. Read it!

http://goldrefiningforum.com/phpBB3/download/file.php?id=2480

 

[jimdoc]

pazsion,

I am in total agreement with Harold. I have attempted to make sense of your long drawn-out meaningless posts several times but, after a couple of paragraphs, my brain glazes over.

I am so glad to see that it wasn't just me, I couldn't even read the whole rambling either. Or any other similar posts.

Jim

 

[Geo]

ive tried to avoid this thread like it was hot to the touch. i was wondering how long it would take to anger Harold. we should start a pool, betting on how long it takes for a particular yahoo to tick Harold off. :shock: :lol: :lol:

of coarse im just joking. i dont think some thing like that would be appropriate.

 

[Palladium]

Good Lord!!! :shock:

I want to take a minute to give Scott a pat on the back. I've been watching and reading some of his posts and replies. I like his logic and his postings. Good job Scott !!!

 

[NobleMetalWorks]

Good Lord!!! :shock:

I want to take a minute to give Scott a pat on the back. I've been watching and reading some of his posts and replies. I like his logic and his postings. Good job Scott !!!

I don't know what to say except thank you...

I try to contribute when and where I can, and although I need corrections, many times, I am learning volumes by interacting with posts and people on this forum. The reasons I feel so passionate about discussing is many fold, but the main reason is that this forum, and the people who contribute to this forum, have enabled me to seize my future firmly. I closed a business, sold off my partnership in another, and did not have much to invest after loosing the bulk of what I have built for my future retirement in the real estate market. This site, and every person who has helped me learn, and still do, has enabled me to secure my future once again.

And I'm happy to say that my future has been sparkling bright, gold and silver in color.

I'm glad I was able to post something positive on this thread as well.

Scott

 

[pazsion]

I am learning volumes by interacting with posts and people on this forum.

Thank you guys for being positive. I hope there is more!

Simply put, as i have stated at least 3 times... it works. I was seeking factual or any evidence anyone had that it would be more dangerous then it was worth.Or cause me to lose gold. So far this is not the case. Thanks for all your help.

I'm still coming back to this thread and others to read any further info others can provide. And to read the links, and re-read anything You guys have suggested. It feels as if there isn't enough time sometimes. But I need to focus and do things right. It will be worth it.

I'm not here to fight period. It seems as though some are offended while not even reading what i wrote. quite strange. Not what i'm used to in these forums either. It's ok i'm not offended. and i'm not easily offended either. It's foolish to insult a student. Particularly if you want them to learn anything, and listen to you. Insults tend to wipe out any authority, credibility, weight or value to what you say. Can you please stop?

My goal is to retrieve gold, and all metals it's attached to. Whenever possible. Particularly nickel, silver, gold itself, platinum anything possible. It's all valuable. And can add to the net profit. When and if i find a buyer for any of it.

The foils i have are very pretty. and inspiring. Even the printer cables are now releasing their gold. I'm not sure why, but i guess sometimes it just takes time. And a little stirring.

You, sir, are a classic example of one who refuses to follow the decorum of the forum. You have been advised that you should cease posting if you insist on promoting your diatribe. I offer you my admonition to cease and desist as my reference:

If you post again, it best be because you are reading Hoke. If you persist by posting yet again one of your less than wise diatribes, I'm going to ban you, and I expect it will be with the gratefulness of those who come here to learn proper procedures. Take note that many of these guys are very serious about their purpose in being here. What they don't want is anyone posting their pie in the sky dreams, sending misleading messages. They hope to learn things that are known to work. No witchcraft, no magic, no alchemy. Just the facts.

Get on with it. Start reading, or leave the forum. You, sir, have wasted all the time you're going to waste in my life.

I am banning you for a period of two weeks. If, in that time period, you reflect on yourself and can return to the forum, leaving behind the crapola you're spewing, you will be welcome. Come back with yet more of your diatribe and disregard for those of us who run this board and the ban will become permanent.

Harold

 

[pazsion]

goldsilverpro- is that the entire "book"?

 

[goldsilverpro]

goldsilverpro- is that the entire "book"?

It's all there as far as I know, all 369 pages. I think it's the same copy Ralph put on Scribd a long time ago.

 

[pazsion]

awesome thank you!

 

[tek4g63]

I could be wrong, but I doubt it, when I say that none of the long term members and moderators have insulted you without reason. Some of what you may be thinking is insults, is more like criticism. Criticism can be constructive if you choose to view it as such. What I mean is, if you take it as an insult your likely to throw up your defenses and resist what your being told. If you see it for what it really is, criticism, then you can accept it and use that information to better your self, or in this case, your process. The choice is up to you. But I do have a saying for this situation. " If one person calls you a dog then you can take it as an insult and fight back. If ten people call you a dog you can choose to surround your self with different people. If 100 people call you a dog then you need to go to the pet store get a collar and start sleeping in the yard because you my friend are a dog."

With that said, if you choose to resist the advice given by the members and you actively choose to reinvent the wheel, none of the great minds here will be willing to help you when you totally screw up.

I'll use myself as an example. I came here with a few silly ideas about gold recovery. Fortunately I also had an open mind. I took advice from the members here and used the tried and true methods outlined here. By following the steps carefully and to the best of my ability I am happy to report that three days ago I melted nearly $ 800.00 worth of gold. And I did it safely.

 

[butcher]

tek4g63,
You did do a very nice job on that gold, and what is more valuable than that shiny metal is the knowledge and skills you are gaining, and you are correct, it is not our intention to insult anyone, to walk blindly on the edge of a cliff and feel insulted or get upset if someone yelled stop would not keep you from going off the edge, but maybe if one would listen and try and understand what they are saying, and consider they may see something that you do not see, if you do, you may learn later they were only trying to help, if you do not you may never learn.

 

[NobleMetalWorks]

Thank you guys for being positive. I hope there is more!

Simply put, as i have stated at least 3 times... it works. I was seeking factual or any evidence anyone had that it would be more dangerous then it was worth.Or cause me to lose gold. So far this is not the case. Thanks for all your help.

What have you stated three times that works? What exactly is it that works? Are you talking about your original post about using a drain cleaner product?

I hope that's not the case, I hope you are not trying to endorse the use of a drain opener product as being worthy of refining precious metals with. If that is point to your comment I really hope other members chime in. I am under the belief that we here on this forum do not promote dangerous, unsafe, unproven ways to recover/refine precious metals.

Are you also trying to say that nobody has given you factual information about what you are attempting to do with a drain cleaner and it being dangerous?

I really hope I just read your post wrong, but would you please be kind enough since so many people spent so much time attempting to steer you in the correct direction, would you clarify what exactly it is you meant?

Scott

 

[Harold_V]

I've had more than enough of this individual. He is making statements that will cause no end of conflict with those who hope to learn, which, to me, is not different from misinformation, be it intentional or inadvertent. Regardless of cause, it must come to an end. I'm not so sure that he's not doing it intentionally. I am also less than enamored with his disregard for those of us who operate the forum, dictating that we should stop doing our jobs. I get just a little bit testy when I encounter such folks.

Frankly, I'd like to rip off his lips.

I'm giving him two weeks to think about the nonsense he's promoting. If that doesn't cure his obstinance, I'll give him a permanent vacation.

Harold

 

[kurt]

Pazsion – did you come here to learn how to recover & refine precious metals? --- I will assume the answer to that question is yes. – That being the case I am going to give you the best advice I can.

You need to shut you mouth & open your eyes, ears & mind. --- Please understand I don’t say that to be rude rather I am just giving you good advice. Why???

Because you have found “the best” source of information on the internet about the recovery & refining of precious metals PERIOD. --- Much (if not most) of the info you find on the internet about this is ether mis-information &/or incomplete information – so most of whatever you have read, seen or heard else where on the net you can most likely throw in the trash can (which is why you are having a problem in the first place & is why you are here asking questions in the second place)

I started playing around with this about 3 years ago. – for the first year & a half I was going on all the other info floating around out there on the net & I lost far more then I ever recovered (much let alone refined) --- Then 16 months ago I found this forum – in the last 16 month – thanks to the info here on this forum – I have recovered & refined over 400 troy oz of silver close to 4 T oz gold & am now working on the platinum group of metals. --- do the math – that’s a fair chuck of change made in 16 months from something I am just “beginning” to learn & working at as a hobby.

Harold was the owner operator of his own refinery for something like 20 years – goldsilverpro has worked for 30 plus years as the lead chemist in a large volume refinery & that is just the tip of the iceburg of experience & knowledge you have access to here on this forum.

So you can ether come to terms with the fact that you need to follow their lead & continue to be a member here & learn the real art of PM recovery & refining --- or you can persist with telling them under which terms they must teach you – in which case you will get booted (I am actually surprised Harold is giving you 2 more weeks at this point) & you will be back to trying to do it based on all the mis-information & incomplete info floating around out there on the net.

If I were you – I would shut my mouth & open my eyes, ears & mind till I had a better understanding of PM recovery & refining. --- That means do as they say --- read Hokes (one time through) then study Hokes (read & take notes) & search, read & study this forum – then run some small batch experiments – then start asking questions on what you ether don’t understand &/or on something you are having a problem with.

Those are the terms & conditions if you really want to learn the art of PM recovery & refining as a good standing member here on this forum.

Kurt

Please note that I edited a little bit of information that conerns me, to reflect more accurately what I have experienced. I wanted the report to be factual, in spite of having to lower my *time in grade*. Thanks for the glowing comments, Kurt.

Harold