Meteorite Discussion

[Yggdrasil]

@galenrog, I hope you're enjoying a good cup of European-brewed coffee. Once you've tasted Italian coffee, it's hard to go back. I just finished mine and was amused but also taken aback by the tone of this discussion. Let's all be kind to one another, folks.


Back to topic:


I find the rock intriguing, even if it's not a meteorite, and I'm not an expert on meteoroids. However, I'd like to contribute an additional theory to the discussion.

The fact that the rock contains not only 97% iron but also precious metals is noteworthy because precious metals aren't typically associated with iron. The quartz present in the rock is confusing because it takes a long time to form naturally. Typically, quartz crystals are generated when calcium-pregnant water rinses over a surface and leaves the crystals behind, such as in a cave or a riverbed. It would take thousands of years to form these crystals under normal conditions, although it could be achieved much faster in a controlled environment.

With all that said, it's possible that the rock is not natural but rather human-made. The combination of iron and gold in such a large proportion (around 0.4% is significant; gold-plated pins from electronics have a similar ratio) suggests that this could be the remains of an event like the testing of a large bomb in the desert or something similar. Copper is a strange addition to the mix, and there are many different metals present, which could indicate that the origin is not natural. Correct me if I am wrong on that.

However, the quartz present in the rock presents a problem. There is no evidence of water in the area, and quartz can only form in the presence of water. It's possible that the area was once a riverbed, but that doesn't explain the presence of quartz.

My working theory is that this place may have served as an early smithy or a place where iron was smelted by the population of the area at the time. If they used any ore they could find, it would explain the wild mix of iron, precious metals, and other base metals. The iron proportion is still very high, which would make the material useful for making swords or other objects. Iridium is present worldwide and is believed to be the result of a large meteoroid impact around 60 million years ago that caused the extinction of the dinosaurs. This layer, known as the K-T barrier, can be found throughout the world and is visible in many areas in the Americas. So, if one starts digging, they'll eventually reach the K-T barrier. It's not deep below the surface in many US states. Ancient inhabitants may have mixed the iridium in with the iron ore without knowing it.

I'm proposing this theory because there used to be many smelters in the area where I live, going back thousands of years. Behind my house, there is farmland where you can still find the remains of that smelting (slag, etc.) lying around. Even the Celts did this 2,500 years ago, and their waste is still visible on the surface today.

So that's my theory. The presence of quartz crystals remains a mystery unless these pieces are older than, say, 10,000 years or so and there was once water in the area before it dried out.


All in all, I find it possible that those objects are man-made.

I tend to disagree with the man made theory.
Quarts is SiO₂, Calcium not needed.
And they usually form underground over millions of years.
They can have formed when the continents was in different places so the lack of water means nothing.
If I'm not mistaken PGM group metals are often found in or with Iron ores, especially in the Nickel rich parts.
Iridium if found in meteorites are found in Iron meteorites.
When that is said, you do not find visible crystals in meteorites

 

[Marcel]

Ok, so then we talk about SiO2, sir.

Let's set aside the discussion of whether these rocks are man-made or not for now.

Firstly, do we have the exact location of where the rocks were found? It would be interesting to know if the area is known for any iron deposits at all. Is it the Arizona Joshua tree forest ( without any Josuha trees ?)

As an avid fossil hunter, I was struck by the rounded shape of the rocks. This observation is relevant and should be discussed further.

Assuming that there are no iron deposits in the area where the rocks were found, it is likely that they originated from somewhere else. Experts have ruled out the possibility that the rocks came from space. Therefore, we must consider terrestrial sources.

If we have confirmed that there are no iron deposits in the area, then what plausible causes could have led to the rocks being found there?

• The rocks could be man-made and the remains of, for example, exploded ordnance or the waste of ancient smiths.
• They could have been transported by a former river in the valley. In that case, we should investigate the river's origin and the direction it may have taken to see if there are any known deposits of this type of iron ore.
• They could have been transported by a glacier during the Ice Age.

As mentioned earlier, the rounded contours of the rocks caught my attention. The area looks like a desert, and there is no evidence of water that could have rounded the rocks. Water or ice is typically the agents that round rocks. Therefore, if the rocks are not man-made, then it's likely they were transported via a river that used to flow in the valley a long time ago or during the Ice Age by a glacier. This would suggest that the rocks came from somewhere north of Arizona, probably in the area that is now Canada.

Here is some research I did on glaciers and Iron-containing rocks in Arizona:

"During the last Ice Age, there were glaciers in North America, but not directly in Arizona. The glaciers mainly extended in the northern regions of the continent, such as Alaska and Canada.
However, there were indirect effects of the glaciers on Arizona. During the Ice Age, sea levels dropped, and the Colorado River became deeper, cutting into the rock, which led to the formation of the Grand Canyon. Additionally, the colder conditions of the Ice Age influenced the vegetation and wildlife that are found in Arizona today."

"Arizona is home to several iron ore deposits, including those in the Iron Springs district, the Globe-Miami district, and the Apache Leap area. These deposits were formed through various geological processes, such as volcanic activity and sedimentation, and they contain different types of iron minerals, including magnetite, hematite, and goethite.

In addition to these deposits, there are also several areas in Arizona where iron-rich rocks and boulders can be found on the surface. These rocks were transported to their current locations by various means, such as erosion, landslides, and floods."

Here are some sources that may be useful for further research on the topic of iron rocks in Arizona:

"Iron Deposits of Arizona" by K. M. Kost, published in the Arizona Geological Society Digest, Volume XVIII (1988). This publication provides an overview of the various iron ore deposits in Arizona, including their geological setting and history of production.

"Geology of Arizona" by W. R. Dickinson and D. E. Snyder, published by the University of Arizona Press (2012). This book is a comprehensive overview of the geology of Arizona, including its mineral deposits, and could provide useful background information on the topic.

"Arizona Rocks and Minerals: A Field Guide to the Grand Canyon State" by Bob Lynch, published by Adventure Publications (2018). This guidebook provides information on the geology of Arizona and the minerals and rocks that can be found in the state, including iron-rich rocks.

The Arizona Geological Survey website (AZGS) has a wealth of information on the geology of Arizona, including maps, publications, and data on mineral resources.

These sources should provide a good starting point for further research on iron rocks in Arizona.


So apparently these rocks an unlike to be man-made :-( . How good I did not put a bet on this one. But one should never rule it out!

 

[galenrog]

Marcel said:

“@galenrog, I hope you're enjoying a good cup of European-brewed coffee. Once you've tasted Italian coffee, it's hard to go back. I just finished mine and was amused but also taken aback by the tone of this discussion. Let's all be kind to one another, folks.”

I have used the phrase “Time for more coffee” for over 45 years. Back in the stone age, I had a supervisor in the military who, when he got tired of dealing with the incessant annoyances of young troops, would get up from his desk, say “time for more coffee”, grab a cup, go back to his desk and say nothing else for an hour or so.

The best coffee, however, is free coffee. Unless it is from Starbucks. Then it is crap that needs to go out to the sewers directly, without insulting my kidneys. As to European coffee, will be in Iceland, Faroe Islands, Denmark, and Sweden next year.

Back to point. Still have a few dozen boxes to ge through. One should have a few meteorite samples. As long as my wife did not give them away when we moved, I should come across them eventually. Slow going though. Being both a cardiac and cancer patient, I tire easily.

Time for more coffee.

 

[DarkspARCS]

None.
Ir content has nothing directly with meteorites to do, mineralization and origin has.
Just certain classes of meteorites and it is not the Ir content that classifies them as Meteorites,
when that is said you have finally come up with something that looks like a Meteorite.

What kind of tests has been done on it?
Still XRF in addition to what?
The notation Meteorite is the name you used as customer name, is it not?

Thank you. I gotta find a lab that does electron spectrometry

 

[VK3NHL]

How much iridium needs to be located in a rock to be a meteorite again?

I hope your coffee was good.
View attachment 56647View attachment 56648View attachment 56649

Sorry your pics certainly do not look like Iron or Iron Nickle Meteorites.
Also not enough Nickle in the content.
Plus cannot see an appreciable’Widmanstatten’ crystal pattern in any of them.

Keep Lking…

 

[goldshark]

We come across nodules like the ones in the picture once in a while. Maybe 1 about 3" long, once a day, hundreds in the centimeter long size, thousands in the 1/8" size. Locally, ours are magnetite. They are metallic when cut with a diamond blade, but do exhibit the Widmanstatten test upon etching. Usually the associated non metallic component is Peridot in meteorites. I have never seen one with Quartz. These nodules (botryoidal), occur here in massive quartz veins. Some of it was mined for the oxidizer in sulphide smelting at the turn of the last century. I can post pictures, if anybody is interested. Most meteorites have a higher Ni content, and the Ir is around 1%. But to be the Devil's advocate, everything on this planet was extraterrestrial at some point in time. So yes , those probably were meteorites at one time.

 

[Yggdrasil]

We come across nodules like the ones in the picture once in a while. Maybe 1 about 3" long, once a day, hundreds in the centimeter long size, thousands in the 1/8" size. Locally, ours are magnetite. They are metallic when cut with a diamond blade, but do exhibit the Widmanstatten test upon etching. Usually the associated non metallic component is Peridot in meteorites. I have never seen one with Quartz. These nodules (botryoidal), occur here in massive quartz veins. Some of it was mined for the oxidizer in sulphide smelting at the turn of the last century. I can post pictures, if anybody is interested. Most meteorites have a higher Ni content, and the Ir is around 1%. But to be the Devil's advocate, everything on this planet was extraterrestrial at some point in time. So yes , those probably were meteorites at one time.

True, but almost everything since that has undergone some kind of metamorphosis or fusion.
Maybe even a trip or two into the magma or deeper.
Only relatively recent things, still dwelling on the surface, has characteristics that let us identify them as extraterrrestial in origin.

 

[Yggdrasil]

We come across nodules like the ones in the picture once in a while. Maybe 1 about 3" long, once a day, hundreds in the centimeter long size, thousands in the 1/8" size. Locally, ours are magnetite. They are metallic when cut with a diamond blade, but do exhibit the Widmanstatten test upon etching. Usually the associated non metallic component is Peridot in meteorites. I have never seen one with Quartz. These nodules (botryoidal), occur here in massive quartz veins. Some of it was mined for the oxidizer in sulphide smelting at the turn of the last century. I can post pictures, if anybody is interested. Most meteorites have a higher Ni content, and the Ir is around 1%. But to be the Devil's advocate, everything on this planet was extraterrestrial at some point in time. So yes , those probably were meteorites at one time.

Are any crystalline structures visible after etching Widmanstatten patterns?

 

[Marcel]

With that level of iridium, could these be impactites? Secondary material that was on Earth when a meteorite hit the surface, containing iron, which was then molten and mixed with the iridium from the meteorite?

I found some pictures of iron impactites that look similar to some of the rocks being shown here. They need to be examined by an expert, of course, but they look much alike, and it would explain the higher-than-usual content of iridium (typically 1 ppb)
This impactite is from Russia (found on eBay). Maybe you can ask those people who did an examination for meteorites and ask them if instead, it was an impactite. Sometimes scientists only answer what they have been asked for word by word.
I found this here for you:

An impactite is a type of rock that is formed as a result of the intense pressure, heat, and shockwaves that occur when a meteorite or other large object collides with the Earth's surface. When a meteorite impacts the Earth, it creates a crater and ejects a large amount of debris and molten rock into the air. This debris and molten rock can cool and solidify to form impactites.

Impactites can come in a variety of forms, depending on the type of rock that was impacted and the severity of the impact. Some common types of impactites include breccias, which are made up of angular rock fragments that are cemented together, and suevites, which are made up of a mixture of melted rock and rock fragments.

It is possible for impactites to have a high iron content, especially if they were formed from a rock that contained iron before the impact. Iron impactites, also known as siderite or siderolite, are impactites that contain a high percentage of iron and nickel, similar to meteorites.

Determining whether a rock is an impactite or a meteorite can be challenging, but there are several methods that can be used to make this determination. One of the most important factors to consider is the chemical composition of the rock. Meteorites are typically composed of a specific combination of elements and minerals, such as iron, nickel, and various silicates, that are not commonly found in Earth rocks. Impactites, on the other hand, are typically composed of Earth materials that have been altered by the impact.

Another factor to consider is the presence of shock features, such as deformation and melting, which are common in impactites but rare in meteorites. Microscopic examination of the rock can also reveal telltale signs of impact, such as the presence of shocked minerals or microtektites, which are tiny glass beads that are formed during impact events.

Overall, determining whether a rock is an impactite or a meteorite requires careful analysis and expertise, and may involve a combination of chemical, mineralogical, and microscopic techniques.

 

[DarkspARCS]

Indeed this is definitely an array of that very material

 

[DarkspARCS]

Textbook precision representation of a fully stable oriented meteorite, with ablation flow, regmaglypts, conical shape, concave formation formulating stability during dark flight as well

 

[DarkspARCS]

item of interest

 

[justprofessor49]

How much iridium needs to be located in a rock to be a meteorite again?

I hope your coffee was good.
View attachment 56647View attachment 56648View attachment 56649

Meteorites: Most are nearly 100% metal although many contain the iron sulfide mineral troilite. The concentration of nickel in iron meteorites, typically 5-30%, is much greater than that in industrial metals except for high-nickel steels. The concentration of nickel in industrial iron is usually <1%.

 

[goldshark]

Are any crystalline structures visible after etching Widmanstatten patterns?

Sorry, meant to say DO NOT bear Widmanstatten patterns on etching. Typo, oops.

 

[Yggdrasil]

Sorry, meant to say DO NOT bear Widmanstatten patterns on etching. Typo, oops.

His samples has patterns after etching but do not seem to have the thin long form
typical for slow solidification in zero gravity that characterize Iron/Nickel Meteorites.
So my question was, is all visible crystalline structures after etching, considered Widmanstatten patterns?

 

[Yggdrasil]

Meteorites: Most are nearly 100% metal although many contain the iron sulfide mineral troilite. The concentration of nickel in iron meteorites, typically 5-30%, is much greater than that in industrial metals except for high-nickel steels. The concentration of nickel in industrial iron is usually <1%.

Most Meteorites are Rocky aren't they?
But of the small percentage non rocky, there are Iron meteorits with all metal?

 

[goldshark]

All minerals will crystallize within a certain shape, including Magnetite, and FeNi meteorites. Dana's Textbook of Mineralogy is THE book, when it comes to crystal structure, and mineral identification. I can quote the differing angles of distinction, but any body who is truly this in depth, has the book or the knowledge to decipher the differences.
Yes, Magnetite will etch to define a crystal pattern, but it is distinctly different from FeNi meteorites.

 

[Yggdrasil]

All minerals will crystallize within a certain shape, including Magnetite, and FeNi meteorites. Dana's Textbook of Mineralogy is THE book, when it comes to crystal structure, and mineral identification. I can quote the differing angles of distinction, but any body who is truly this in depth, has the book or the knowledge to decipher the differences.
Yes, Magnetite will etch to define a crystal pattern, but it is distinctly different from FeNi meteorites.

The structure of Iron meteorites is the very long, ordered and unusual structures that come from slow cooling in zero gravity.
These can not happen in an environment with any gravity of significance.
I thought these was the ones called Widmanstatten patterns, not the random structure visible after etching metal created here.
Maybe there is a a certain maximum size of grains that can be made here and it is when the grain size is significantly larger one can assume it is space rock.
There is also the rocks from other planets, which will not have these patterns.