Moment I realized I am in over my head

[Joeyc118]

Okay so I made an account just to share the most wild thing I couldn’t predict. I’d love an answer to it and I started hokes book but spent an embarrassing long amount of time in my research and video watching.

I came across a late 90s telecom server. And wow it’s blowing my mind. It looks like Jurassic park with everything being so large on these boards. A simple project that turned weird was one board has thousands and thousands of gold pins. So I sawed a bunch of them off to see what I’m dealing with. Weighed them at 250 grams. Exactly. Cool.
Just for shits I also had about 40 ram sticks and I removed gold plating from fingers and rinsed to add to whatever I had right before aqua regia.

Ok so for pins I went straight to diluted nitric. Took two baths before things calmed down. Something interesting was that all of the tiny pins were still in tact. My assumption was that they were completely coated in gold plating so only way at this point was dissolve in ar. I rinse well and add the gold folds and the bottom of beaker is layer of pretty gold.

So I do it and I get a dark green solution. Oh and yeah I covered in hcl then slowly added nitric until reaction complete so I wouldn’t overdo it. Because I was kinda expecting the solution to be dirty I figured I’d try to boil off some excess nitric before I do anything. Yeah I add a little urea and I don’t boil for long but gave a splash of hcl in case it got thirsty. Urea is now not reacting so I go to my smb. I put in what looks like an appropriate amount and it’s basically black. I wait a short time and do a stannous test and it’s negative.
I’m sure I should still wait a while but I figure why not filter and see what’s up because it can chill in this other beaker. I end up needing two beakers for solution.

This is where it gets weird. As I pour off I see a line of dark mud at bottom, maybe a little less than I would like to see once all the way done but I spray it out into a small beaker to clean up a bit and look at it. Other two beaker with majority of solution is hanging out. Now it’s been a while and I look at the bottom of one of them and see what looks like brown mud but mostly silver with it but I can’t tell if maybe it was excess smb. I pour off top into a container and fill with hot water to clean up. Everything is immediately settled. I pour off water. Then I fill with hot water again and the entire thing turns orange. Very orange. I can see particles falling. I grab the other jar and go to do the same and it turns light green and does nothing.

My only thought was that when I poured off originally that one jar got more of something than the other. But what is that silver stuff too? Jeez. I’ll see if I can add pics. Pretty cool in all but now I can see just how vast of knowledge you need to be dabbling in this.

 

[Martijn]

Welcome to the forum. Long story with some things to correct, but let's take it slow. I hope you will too.
Diluting acids like HCl with water can push out salts like silver chloride or cuprous chloride or other salts.
You could see if a bit of the silvery stuff dissolves in warm water, anf if so, wash the powder clean that way.

The powder you have looks to be as expected for the amount of materials your processed.

You have a lot to learn and really need to slow down.
Start with putting on some gloves, before you handle anything, and set aside your chemistry and beakers.

Urea only takes out (NO and )NO2 from solution, free HNO3 is not destroyed by urea. You need sulphamic acid for that.

Anything I say to you here will have to be explained further ans has side notes and exceptions you probably can not grasp yet.
So i think you will take another embarrassing long time before you can finally proceed. No stress. It took me 4 years to get confident.
Take your time to study, ask specific questions if you don't understand, and present your plan here for us to review.

The shortcuts i could tell you about will get you a fast result, but no understanding.

 

[Joeyc118]

Welcome to the forum. Long story with some things to correct, but let's take it slow. I hope you will too.
Diluting acids like HCl with water can push out salts like silver chloride or cuprous chloride or other salts.
You could see if a bit of the silvery stuff dissolves in warm water, anf if so, wash the powder clean that way.

The powder you have looks to be as expected for the amount of materials your processed.

You have a lot to learn and really need to slow down.
Start with putting on some gloves, before you handle anything, and set aside your chemistry and beakers.

Urea only takes out (NO and )NO2 from solution, free HNO3 is not destroyed by urea. You need sulphamic acid for that.

Anything I say to you here will have to be explained further ans has side notes and exceptions you probably can not grasp yet.
So i think you will take another embarrassing long time before you can finally proceed. No stress. It took me 4 years to get confident.
Take your time to study, ask specific questions if you don't understand, and present your plan here for us to review.

The shortcuts i could tell you about will get you a fast result, but no understanding.

Haha you called me out on the gloves. Thank you very much for the response.

Did you go to school for this or just read this book that apparently should be on Oprah’s top 100 and spend a ridiculous amount of time figuring it out?
I feel like I just need to hire someone to walk me through it.
Not sure if I can speak for anyone else here but I’m not in it for money or to be a scrapper. I’m in real estate and it’s whatever. Honestly this started out as a fun home school project and quickly it turned to my obsession alone and I just need to understand it. It’s like a personal mission now.

 

[bahabully]

Haha you called me out on the gloves. Thank you very much for the response.

Did you go to school for this or just read this book that apparently should be on Oprah’s top 100 and spend a ridiculous amount of time figuring it out?
I feel like I just need to hire someone to walk me through it.
Not sure if I can speak for anyone else here but I’m not in it for money or to be a scrapper. I’m in real estate and it’s whatever. Honestly this started out as a fun home school project and quickly it turned to my obsession alone and I just need to understand it. It’s like a personal mission now.

Direct answers will be hard to secure based on what I have found on the forum. I believe this is because most folks don't know 100% (For sure).... and maybe there is some liability involved if they tell you to add kryptonite to a solution and then it blows up in your face.

You will receive immediate and direct call outs regarding:
1 - Safety - as you have discovered. BTW, I agree... put some gloves on brother.
2 - Self learning - References to go do your own homework and come back when you have a PHD in chemistry or after you have secured a principle position in Barrak Gold.
3 - Etiquette - Dressing down if you get snippy.

I don't see the silver goo stuff.
The orange looks more brown to me, which was probably ultra fine gold precipitate that you stirred up when you added water... so just let it sit over night and I bet it settles back to brown precipitate (gold).
The I would wash with water again... let settle again... water again, let settle again... maybe 4-5 times.
Then I would filter out the precipitate and melt it.... If it's yella' then it should be your gold.
I would put the excess and wash solution into a waste container with some copper... any gold still in solution should cement out and can be captured at that point. Capture that cemented precipitate and then continue to process the waste solution until it is safe to dispose of.

 

[Yggdrasil]

Direct answers will be hard to secure based on what I have found on the forum. I believe this is because most folks don't know 100% (For sure).... and maybe there is some liability involved if they tell you to add kryptonite to a solution and then it blows up in your face.

You will receive immediate and direct call outs regarding:
1 - Safety - as you have discovered. BTW, I agree... put some gloves on brother.
2 - Self learning - References to go do your own homework and come back when you have a PHD in chemistry or after you have secured a principle position in Barrak Gold.
3 - Etiquette - Dressing down if you get snippy.

I don't see the silver goo stuff.
The orange looks more brown to me, which was probably ultra fine gold precipitate that you stirred up when you added water... so just let it sit over night and I bet it settles back to brown precipitate (gold).
The I would wash with water again... let settle again... water again, let settle again... maybe 4-5 times.
Then I would filter out the precipitate and melt it.... If it's yella' then it should be your gold.
I would put the excess and wash solution into a waste container with some copper... any gold still in solution should cement out and can be captured at that point. Capture that cemented precipitate and then continue to process the waste solution until it is safe to dispose of.

You get this completely backwards again.
Direct answers can rarely be given based on the questions we get here, you have been here long enough to know.
Have you read this thread?
https://goldrefiningforum.com/threa...imple-question-and-get-a-simple-answer.21412/
1. Good that we agree on this.

2. Has nothing to do with PhD or other titles, but more in the direction learning someone to fish is better than giving them a fish.
We want our members to understand what they are doing and why they are doing it, this is better in the long run for all parties.

3. No one cares what you wear on the forum, but we urge you to wear proper gear in your lab, the rest is up to you
We do however mind if you have a sloppy language or are impolite, rude or aggressive towards other members.

And your advice might not be entirely correct in this matter.
The cement it out on Copper is a good one though.

 

[Martijn]

Haha you called me out on the gloves. Thank you very much for the response.

Did you go to school for this or just read this book that apparently should be on Oprah’s top 100 and spend a ridiculous amount of time figuring it out?
I feel like I just need to hire someone to walk me through it.
Not sure if I can speak for anyone else here but I’m not in it for money or to be a scrapper. I’m in real estate and it’s whatever. Honestly this started out as a fun home school project and quickly it turned to my obsession alone and I just need to understand it. It’s like a personal mission now.

No i had an electronics education and worked as electro mechanic, instument technician amd now I'm a construction supervisor and safety counselor together.
I dived into this world of chemistry and still get amazed by the things i read here from members dropping the occasional gem.

Hoke is a great way to get to know the different approaches to separating different alloys in jewelry. It is written in such a way that a non chemist can understand.

I took me 4 years before I had the confidence to really start recovery of e-waste.
You can really get lost in all the different processes and ways to treat material.

If you're not in a hurry, you can look into the AP process. Its a copper chloride leach for copper and other base metals that with addition of air regenerates itself and leaves the gold behind as foils.

Read read read. You have a lot to study. And ask if you feel you need help.

To clear a solution with fine suspended gold particles, put it on low heat and add a couple drop of sulfuric.

 

[Yggdrasil]

Okay so I made an account just to share the most wild thing I couldn’t predict. I’d love an answer to it and I started hokes book but spent an embarrassing long amount of time in my research and video watching.

I came across a late 90s telecom server. And wow it’s blowing my mind. It looks like Jurassic park with everything being so large on these boards. A simple project that turned weird was one board has thousands and thousands of gold pins. So I sawed a bunch of them off to see what I’m dealing with. Weighed them at 250 grams. Exactly. Cool.
Just for shits I also had about 40 ram sticks and I removed gold plating from fingers and rinsed to add to whatever I had right before aqua regia.

Ok so for pins I went straight to diluted nitric. Took two baths before things calmed down. Something interesting was that all of the tiny pins were still in tact. My assumption was that they were completely coated in gold plating so only way at this point was dissolve in ar. I rinse well and add the gold folds and the bottom of beaker is layer of pretty gold.

So I do it and I get a dark green solution. Oh and yeah I covered in hcl then slowly added nitric until reaction complete so I wouldn’t overdo it. Because I was kinda expecting the solution to be dirty I figured I’d try to boil off some excess nitric before I do anything. Yeah I add a little urea and I don’t boil for long but gave a splash of hcl in case it got thirsty. Urea is now not reacting so I go to my smb. I put in what looks like an appropriate amount and it’s basically black. I wait a short time and do a stannous test and it’s negative.
I’m sure I should still wait a while but I figure why not filter and see what’s up because it can chill in this other beaker. I end up needing two beakers for solution.

This is where it gets weird. As I pour off I see a line of dark mud at bottom, maybe a little less than I would like to see once all the way done but I spray it out into a small beaker to clean up a bit and look at it. Other two beaker with majority of solution is hanging out. Now it’s been a while and I look at the bottom of one of them and see what looks like brown mud but mostly silver with it but I can’t tell if maybe it was excess smb. I pour off top into a container and fill with hot water to clean up. Everything is immediately settled. I pour off water. Then I fill with hot water again and the entire thing turns orange. Very orange. I can see particles falling. I grab the other jar and go to do the same and it turns light green and does nothing.

My only thought was that when I poured off originally that one jar got more of something than the other. But what is that silver stuff too? Jeez. I’ll see if I can add pics. Pretty cool in all but now I can see just how vast of knowledge you need to be dabbling in this. View attachment 57550

As Martijn said Urea is not our go to solution, it work to some degree but can also create explosive compounds under some conditions,
and we really do not want our hard achieved Gold to explode do we, so we'd rather use Sulfamic acid.

Next after the SMB has dropped the Gold, we test the liquid with Stannous and siphon off the liquid if it is negative.
Then the powder is washed repeatedly in HCl until it shows no color, the we usually refine it once more.
All liquids from this goes to the stock pot for later cementing on Copper.

Regarding your brown liquid, I suspect Iron salts of some kind.
Some of these pins are made of Kovar which is a quite resistant Iron alloy.
When you diluted it in water it might have created Iron Hydroxide or some other Iron salt.
Urea is a base and as such might push the pH too high to keep Iron in solution.
It might be wise to acidify the solution and try some more SMB if you used much Urea, SMB need the solution to be acidic to work.

And continue your studies, particularly the safety and dealing with waste sections.

And as I see you haven't received the links yet I will add them here:

We ask our new members to do 3 things.
1. Read C.M. Hokes book on refining jewelers scrap, it gives an easy introduction to the most important chemistry regarding refining.
It is free here on the forum: Screen Readable Copy of Hoke's Book
2. Then read the safety section of the forum: Safety
3. And then read about "Dealing with waste" in the forum: Dealing with Waste

Suggested reading: The Library

Forum rules : https://goldrefiningforum.com/threads/board-policy-this-should-be-read-by-everyone.4646/

 

[orvi]

Haha you called me out on the gloves. Thank you very much for the response.

Did you go to school for this or just read this book that apparently should be on Oprah’s top 100 and spend a ridiculous amount of time figuring it out?
I feel like I just need to hire someone to walk me through it.
Not sure if I can speak for anyone else here but I’m not in it for money or to be a scrapper. I’m in real estate and it’s whatever. Honestly this started out as a fun home school project and quickly it turned to my obsession alone and I just need to understand it. It’s like a personal mission now.

If you really want to understand it, firstly understand the risks associated with it. As you study risk when you do your business in real estate. Here, it has the only difference that mistake does not cost you significant money, but your health.
Personal mission seems like a solid chunk of time, so be prepared and start with gloves. I was also "hero" from the start, then banging my head to the wall how ignorant I have been in the past. And that is some time, now finishing my PhD and safety is still on the first place. Recently, my colleague tragically passed away, and that only underline the importance of being prepared.

No refining is the same as the previous one, it is a complex chemistry involved, that often does not follow textbook simplified theory and deviates a lot from the path you projected. "Holding hand" approach is the worst here, because sometimes, you need to react quickly upon signs and tests given from the actual situation, and nobody from here can help you fix that situation immediately. And asking with every trivial question here is also tedious for us to cover. If it is your personal mission, understanding the basics of what you are doing is pretty fair I think.

------------
So, first question - were the pins magnetic ? Magnetic pins does not dissolve well in nitric acid and leave iron residue, that upon reducing the acidity can look perfectly like on the picture - slightly more orange "rust" coloured opalescent solution, unsettling, hard to filter.

Urea isn´t the best denoxing agent, and everybody here knows that. Best is not to overadd nitric, second best is tied - sulfamic acid or simultaneous copper+sulfamic denoxing/cementation and third best is to denox hot with just bunch of extra SMB (very vigorous and erupting if too much nitric is in, best to put the SMB as slurry, add enough HCL to stay strongly acidic). Unfortunately, urea is on the fourth place on my list and I tried all of these personally numerous times.

Waste treatment with urea in solution is awful endeavor, as ammonia is slowly released due to decomposition of urea by base added. Everything in the vicinity of waste processing place go white as acidic fumes from refining react with ammonia. Urea nitrate also isn´t the safest stuff on the planet. It was discussed there numerous times, just dig it out using search engine here on the page

 

[Joeyc118]

If you really want to understand it, firstly understand the risks associated with it. As you study risk when you do your business in real estate. Here, it has the only difference that mistake does not cost you significant money, but your health.
Personal mission seems like a solid chunk of time, so be prepared and start with gloves. I was also "hero" from the start, then banging my head to the wall how ignorant I have been in the past. And that is some time, now finishing my PhD and safety is still on the first place. Recently, my colleague tragically passed away, and that only underline the importance of being prepared.

No refining is the same as the previous one, it is a complex chemistry involved, that often does not follow textbook simplified theory and deviates a lot from the path you projected. "Holding hand" approach is the worst here, because sometimes, you need to react quickly upon signs and tests given from the actual situation, and nobody from here can help you fix that situation immediately. And asking with every trivial question here is also tedious for us to cover. If it is your personal mission, understanding the basics of what you are doing is pretty fair I think.

------------
So, first question - were the pins magnetic ? Magnetic pins does not dissolve well in nitric acid and leave iron residue, that upon reducing the acidity can look perfectly like on the picture - slightly more orange "rust" coloured opalescent solution, unsettling, hard to filter.

Urea isn´t the best denoxing agent, and everybody here knows that. Best is not to overadd nitric, second best is tied - sulfamic acid or simultaneous copper+sulfamic denoxing/cementation and third best is to denox hot with just bunch of extra SMB (very vigorous and erupting if too much nitric is in, best to put the SMB as slurry, add enough HCL to stay strongly acidic). Unfortunately, urea is on the fourth place on my list and I tried all of these personally numerous times.

Waste treatment with urea in solution is awful endeavor, as ammonia is slowly released due to decomposition of urea by base added. Everything in the vicinity of waste processing place go white as acidic fumes from refining react with ammonia. Urea nitrate also isn´t the safest stuff on the planet. It was discussed there numerous times, just dig it out using search engine here on the page

Thank you everyone for your time and all the info.
I’m sorry about your friend and for the record the only reason I wasn’t wearing gloves was because this was on my third rinse with hot water then I had to take a picture.
I definitely have more questions now than ever. Like how many regulars are on this forum? Do you all mostly know each other?
It’s strange that it almost seems that the chemistry is as much art as it is a set of rules.
Since we all have already taken some time in this I hope it’s cool if I go ahead and ask some basic questions.

1. As long as you don’t trash the waste is it possible to lose gold? I don’t mean like not realize it’s still in solution but I mean like it’s just gone forever because you screwed up. And is there like a fail safe to start over in solution? I guess any metal more reactive will precipitate it out.

2. Well I can’t think of anything good right now except if i add some pics of what this lady gave me would you mind telling me if I got something awesome and maybe an estimate on gold quantity and anything else of importance please? These are just random pictures I had and some on scale was just a few I grabbed. These boards look insane to me

 

[Yggdrasil]

Thank you everyone for your time and all the info.
I’m sorry about your friend and for the record the only reason I wasn’t wearing gloves was because this was on my third rinse with hot water then I had to take a picture.
I definitely have more questions now than ever. Like how many regulars are on this forum? Do you all mostly know each other?
It’s strange that it almost seems that the chemistry is as much art as it is a set of rules.
Since we all have already taken some time in this I hope it’s cool if I go ahead and ask some basic questions.

1. As long as you don’t trash the waste is it possible to lose gold? I don’t mean like not realize it’s still in solution but I mean like it’s just gone forever because you screwed up. And is there like a fail safe to start over in solution? I guess any metal more reactive will precipitate it out.

2. Well I can’t think of anything good right now except if i add some pics of what this lady gave me would you mind telling me if I got something awesome and maybe an estimate on gold quantity and anything else of importance please? These are just random pictures I had and some on scale was just a few I grabbed. These boards look insane to me

Some of the members that have been here from the beginning, might know each others personally.
Some have probably been on the phone from time to time.
Besides that we only share a common passion and that from different continents around the globe.

1. No Gold is ever lost, unless you throw it out with the trash. It might end up inaccessible in practical terms though.

2. There seem to be some rather nice material, pins and chips in particular.
It all need to be sorted properly though since they need different processing.

Edit for spelling