N2 + H2O question:: incinerator/ scrubber
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N2 is nitrogen, an inert gas that makes up 78% of the air we breathe. Is N2 what you meant to say or did you mean HNO3, nitric acid? If you're going to use chemical symbols, make sure they are correct. If you're not sure, spell out the words. The difference between N2 and HNO3 is like night and day.
When you mix HNO3 with H2O, you end up with dilute HNO3. It doesn't decompose H2O.
GSP, just the man I wanted to talk to. Thank you for your response. I meant N2. I have a machine that injects N2 into a stream of H2O. Why would it do that? This machines manufacturer claims that the H and O are mixed to cause combustion in a later chamber. The combustion is then cooled with LYE and clean H2O. The end product is said to be waste water with the proper PH ready and safe for disposal. If you'd like I can email you a link, PM me. Thanks again and Merry Christmas 
Jonn
Jonn
I don't think I am the person to talk to since this is all new to me. Do you have more info? A link on the machine would be good.jonn said:GSP, just the man I wanted to talk to. Thank you for your response. I meant N2. I have a machine that injects N2 into a stream of H2O. Why would it do that? This machines manufacturer claims that the H and O are mixed to cause combustion in a later chamber. The combustion is then cooled with LYE and clean H2O. The end product is said to be waste water with the proper PH ready and safe for disposal. If you'd like I can email you a link, PM me. Thanks again and Merry Christmas
freechemist
In Remembrance
Definitely not. Like GSP said, the air we are breathing is mainly N2. Therefor what you ask, happens all the time, everywhere, where surface water is in motion, without the smallest trace of water being split into it's elements. - Or did you ever hear of a californian beach-surfing-resort as a never ending source of elemental hydrogen and oxygen?
The combustion product of H (elemental hydrogen) and O (elemental oxygen) is clean water, and there is no need for lye for it's safe disposal. The addition of lye would only deteriorate it's purity. - So, please, don't further misuse this forum, publishing nonsense, which easily can be regarded as spam.
Kind regards, freechemist
Jonn,
Maybe you just have some of the facts mixed up in what it is stating.
Lets look at burning a fuel.
Air is about 78% nitrogen gas N2, and 21% oxygen O2, and minor parts of other gases.
Nitrogen in the air will not burn; but in high temperatures will react with oxygen to form NOx gases
Hydrogen in the fuel does not burn, but will react with oxygen to form water
I was wrong here Hydrogen does burn to form water
2 H2(g) + O2(g) → 2 H2O
If a fuel and heat is involved oxygen will burn.
Methane gas CH4 a hydrocarbon fuel, the carbon in methane will burn, the hydrogen will burn.
For combustion we need fuel heat and oxygen, to complete the chemical reaction.
Combustion of methane in air, if enough air (oxygen) in complete combustion we have , carbon dioxide and water form:
CH4 + 2O2 --> CO2 + 2H2O
The carbon from the fuel and oxygen from the air form CO2 gas, the hydrogen from the fuel and oxygen from the air form water vapors (steam).
Nitrogen N2 does not burn most would just go up flue as a gas,
But at high temperatures about 1550 deg. C, some of the nitrogen begins to form a pollutant of NOx gas. A combination of several oxidized nitrogen gases:
N2 + O2 --> 2NO
reaction of nitrogen gas with oxygen, at high temperature forming nitrous oxide gas.
N2 + 2O2 --> 2NO2
reaction of nitrogen with excess oxygen, at high temperature forming nitrous dioxide gas.
Problem with these NOx gases is in the steam (water) produced by combustion, or in the water in air can form acids actually nitric acid we call acid rain, (sulfur from fuels can also form acid rain sulfuric acid).
NO2 + H2O --> HNO3
Industrially these flue gases are scrubbed, or catalytic converters are used to help prevent this acid rain.
We also use flue gas re-circulation (exhaust gas recirculation) to cool some of the combustion chamber to help somewhat to help lower the production of the NOx gas.
Edited error in my thinking
Maybe you just have some of the facts mixed up in what it is stating.
Lets look at burning a fuel.
Air is about 78% nitrogen gas N2, and 21% oxygen O2, and minor parts of other gases.
Nitrogen in the air will not burn; but in high temperatures will react with oxygen to form NOx gases
Hydrogen in the fuel does not burn, but will react with oxygen to form water
I was wrong here Hydrogen does burn to form water
2 H2(g) + O2(g) → 2 H2O
If a fuel and heat is involved oxygen will burn.
Methane gas CH4 a hydrocarbon fuel, the carbon in methane will burn, the hydrogen will burn.
For combustion we need fuel heat and oxygen, to complete the chemical reaction.
Combustion of methane in air, if enough air (oxygen) in complete combustion we have , carbon dioxide and water form:
CH4 + 2O2 --> CO2 + 2H2O
The carbon from the fuel and oxygen from the air form CO2 gas, the hydrogen from the fuel and oxygen from the air form water vapors (steam).
Nitrogen N2 does not burn most would just go up flue as a gas,
But at high temperatures about 1550 deg. C, some of the nitrogen begins to form a pollutant of NOx gas. A combination of several oxidized nitrogen gases:
N2 + O2 --> 2NO
reaction of nitrogen gas with oxygen, at high temperature forming nitrous oxide gas.
N2 + 2O2 --> 2NO2
reaction of nitrogen with excess oxygen, at high temperature forming nitrous dioxide gas.
Problem with these NOx gases is in the steam (water) produced by combustion, or in the water in air can form acids actually nitric acid we call acid rain, (sulfur from fuels can also form acid rain sulfuric acid).
NO2 + H2O --> HNO3
Industrially these flue gases are scrubbed, or catalytic converters are used to help prevent this acid rain.
We also use flue gas re-circulation (exhaust gas recirculation) to cool some of the combustion chamber to help somewhat to help lower the production of the NOx gas.
Edited error in my thinking
GSP, I will try to post a link on this machine shortly. It is a Das Escape Inline. Touted by the manufacturer as a toxic fume scrubber. From what I gather, it introduces hydrogen to oxygen in a combustion chamber. The combustion chamber also gets toxic fumes and gases pumped into it for pyrolization. There is a bell or donut above the flame, looks like a mushroom cap. Seems that cap directs solids back down. Above this is a vertical stack. Inside this stack is introduced clean water just above the mushroom. I think it becomes steam under pressure to extend the suspension time of the smoke. Immediately above this is depicted as a scrubber. On top of the scrubber still inside this stack is showing a venturi scrubber. The venturi scrubber uses lye mixed with water and sprays downwards. All this would be inside the stack and under extreme heat. There is an outlet below the burner body that feeds into a storage tank. The storage tank has an inlet for Lye, for water and an outlet for waste water and a suction port outlet that feeds the venturi at the top of the stack.
The power supply for the machine is 110 volts. It has quite a few electronic controls, mass flow sensors, hydrogen sensors, N2 sensors and much much more. The input gas is listed as N2. Next to the N2 inlet on the very top of the unit is an inlet or supply listed as H2O. Now, if this machine uses hydrogen and oxygen to create the combustion chamber gas, where does the hydrogen and oxygen supply come from??? I must admit I'm stumped. If there is no inlet for hydrogen, but there is an inlet for H2O and N2, I'm only left to assume that the H and O comes from the water. So, why have an inlet for N2?? Maybe FREECHEMIST can kindly explain my conundrum. Quite frankly, I'm stumped. I will now attempt a link. Butcher found a link for me previously, thank you butcher, let's see if I can add it here.
ESCAPE - Waste Gas Treatment
The ESCAPE technology offers an optimum combination of the two operating principles burning & scrubbing in the smallest possible space. It is an effective and highly versatile technology for waste gas abatement with a low cost of ownership. Based on this technology we have developed the ESCAPE product line, which offers flexible and customized applications for the abatement of almost all process waste gases in the semiconductor industry. Both heights and media supply are variable. All ESCAPE systems have a small footprint with service and maintenance access from front and back. Installation is quick and easy and does not require special tools.
Operating Principle
Hazardous substances of process waste gases are abated directly from where they originate (Point-of-Use, POI). Waste gases are fed into a ring-shaped burner apparatus where thermolysis sets in. Depending on the chemical composition of the waste gases, various reactions take place (oxidation, reduction, pyrolysis). In the subsequent scrubbing process, gaseous and solid compounds generated by combustion are absorbed and cooled down by a suitable scrubbing liquid.
ESCAPE INLINE
ESCAPE INLINE
ESCAPE INLINE® is our tried and tested basic system for the semiconductor and photovoltaic industries. It abates gas flows of up to 300 slm from various processes, induced through a maximum of four independent inlets. The system combines numerous advantages including high abatement efficiency, low cost of ownership, a small footprint and network compatibility for optimized operating costs. As an alternative to the scrubber liquid’s through-feed-system the reactor can be equipped with a water-conserving closed-loop design. The reactors are available in two sizes, and runs with all fuel gases and scrubber liquids.
The power supply for the machine is 110 volts. It has quite a few electronic controls, mass flow sensors, hydrogen sensors, N2 sensors and much much more. The input gas is listed as N2. Next to the N2 inlet on the very top of the unit is an inlet or supply listed as H2O. Now, if this machine uses hydrogen and oxygen to create the combustion chamber gas, where does the hydrogen and oxygen supply come from??? I must admit I'm stumped. If there is no inlet for hydrogen, but there is an inlet for H2O and N2, I'm only left to assume that the H and O comes from the water. So, why have an inlet for N2?? Maybe FREECHEMIST can kindly explain my conundrum. Quite frankly, I'm stumped. I will now attempt a link. Butcher found a link for me previously, thank you butcher, let's see if I can add it here.
ESCAPE - Waste Gas Treatment
The ESCAPE technology offers an optimum combination of the two operating principles burning & scrubbing in the smallest possible space. It is an effective and highly versatile technology for waste gas abatement with a low cost of ownership. Based on this technology we have developed the ESCAPE product line, which offers flexible and customized applications for the abatement of almost all process waste gases in the semiconductor industry. Both heights and media supply are variable. All ESCAPE systems have a small footprint with service and maintenance access from front and back. Installation is quick and easy and does not require special tools.
Operating Principle
Hazardous substances of process waste gases are abated directly from where they originate (Point-of-Use, POI). Waste gases are fed into a ring-shaped burner apparatus where thermolysis sets in. Depending on the chemical composition of the waste gases, various reactions take place (oxidation, reduction, pyrolysis). In the subsequent scrubbing process, gaseous and solid compounds generated by combustion are absorbed and cooled down by a suitable scrubbing liquid.
ESCAPE INLINE
ESCAPE INLINE
ESCAPE INLINE® is our tried and tested basic system for the semiconductor and photovoltaic industries. It abates gas flows of up to 300 slm from various processes, induced through a maximum of four independent inlets. The system combines numerous advantages including high abatement efficiency, low cost of ownership, a small footprint and network compatibility for optimized operating costs. As an alternative to the scrubber liquid’s through-feed-system the reactor can be equipped with a water-conserving closed-loop design. The reactors are available in two sizes, and runs with all fuel gases and scrubber liquids.
Darn it, now I'm even more confused. I thought hydrogen and oxygen when introduced burned violently. Doesn't the space shuttle run on hydrogen and oxygen with steam as the exhaust? Oh brother, I need to study this some more
Edit, thank you for the clarification butcher, I can breathe now :lol:
Any rocket scientists out there that can explain this?
Edit, thank you for the clarification butcher, I can breathe now :lol:
Any rocket scientists out there that can explain this?
Jonn I was wrong there I editted while you were reading, sorry.
Jonn,
Although I did not search long, I could not find much documentation on the unit, it would be nice to get a better understanding of its working principles and operation.
Although I did not search long, I could not find much documentation on the unit, it would be nice to get a better understanding of its working principles and operation.
That system does a lot more than just mixes N2 and water... it burns gas mixed with waste gas from CVD and other semiconductor processes. In the second link there are some more detailed instructions on what it uses as consumables and what it produces. It might form HF and NOx as waste products... :shock:
http://www.das-europe.com/en/treatment-products/waste-gas-treatment/escape-waste-gas-treatment/
http://www.epa.gov/semiconductor-pfc/documents/final_tt_report.pdf
Göran
http://www.das-europe.com/en/treatment-products/waste-gas-treatment/escape-waste-gas-treatment/
http://www.epa.gov/semiconductor-pfc/documents/final_tt_report.pdf
Göran
You are correct Goran, the the Nox is used for oxidation of waste product. I downloaded from the DAS website link you posted, thank you, and it shows in lay mans terms a beautiful picture of what this machine does. My question remaining now, is HOW does it do this? I'm currently studying any information I can find on it, and will see about getting an operators manual from the manufacturer. The Nox is also neutralized before being released into the waste outlet. Amazing :mrgreen:
Goran, thanks again. I was able to download the second link today. Page 45-46 section E is in regards to this machine. Seems pretty amazing. According to the manufacturer the Nox levels are far below required levels (that's great news). The production of Hf is also claimed to be burned off but then again it could be sent to an Hf treatment tank. I am also currently studying the owners manual I have and have requested a technical manual, hopefully I can get it.
By the way, I found information stating that the addition of N2 to H2O causes Hypoxia, lack of oxygen. So in essence, a separation of H2 and O. Learning sure is FUN :lol:
Scrappile, thank you for the patent link, lots of useful information. I'm still reading that one 8)
Edit, ok so according to Honeywell labs, Hf is actually neutralized by NAOH, which is what is used in the waste tank. :lol:
So, the waste is clean water? Wow, just need a trial run.
Edit again, may need a second tank with calcium hydroxide for best safety practice, (I think)
I was able to download the second link today. Page 45-46 section E is in regards to this machine. Seems pretty amazing. According to the manufacturer the Nox levels are far below required levels (that's great news). The production of Hf is also claimed to be burned off but then again it could be sent to an Hf treatment tank. I am also currently studying the owners manual I have and have requested a technical manual, hopefully I can get it.By the way, I found information stating that the addition of N2 to H2O causes Hypoxia, lack of oxygen. So in essence, a separation of H2 and O. Learning sure is FUN :lol:
Scrappile, thank you for the patent link, lots of useful information. I'm still reading that one 8)
Edit, ok so according to Honeywell labs, Hf is actually neutralized by NAOH, which is what is used in the waste tank. :lol:
So, the waste is clean water? Wow, just need a trial run.
Edit again, may need a second tank with calcium hydroxide for best safety practice, (I think)
freechemist
In Remembrance
Jonn,
In your last post you say:
"By the way, I found information stating that the addition of N2 to H2O causes Hypoxia, lack of oxygen. So in essence, a separation of H2 and O."
There you are misunderstanding something. Hypoxia means lack of oxygen, dissolved in water, and has nothing to do with splitting of water, H2O into it's constituting elements, hydrogen and oxygen. Elemental oxygen (O2-molecules) and/or elemental nitrogen (N2-molecules), both dissolve to a certain extent in water, depending on their individual concentration in the atmosphere. It is possible to drive out completely dissolved oxygen from water by purging it with a stream of very pure nitrogen. In fact, it is well known laboratory practice, to treat water in such a way, to obtain oxygen-free water, which can be used to dissolve highly oxydation-sensitive compounds, like chromium(II)-salts, which in ordinary, untreated water, would be oxydized rapidly to chromium(III)-compounds.
In such nitrogen-purged water a fish couldn't survive, because it's lack of dissolved oxygen.
In your last post you say:
"By the way, I found information stating that the addition of N2 to H2O causes Hypoxia, lack of oxygen. So in essence, a separation of H2 and O."
There you are misunderstanding something. Hypoxia means lack of oxygen, dissolved in water, and has nothing to do with splitting of water, H2O into it's constituting elements, hydrogen and oxygen. Elemental oxygen (O2-molecules) and/or elemental nitrogen (N2-molecules), both dissolve to a certain extent in water, depending on their individual concentration in the atmosphere. It is possible to drive out completely dissolved oxygen from water by purging it with a stream of very pure nitrogen. In fact, it is well known laboratory practice, to treat water in such a way, to obtain oxygen-free water, which can be used to dissolve highly oxydation-sensitive compounds, like chromium(II)-salts, which in ordinary, untreated water, would be oxydized rapidly to chromium(III)-compounds.
In such nitrogen-purged water a fish couldn't survive, because it's lack of dissolved oxygen.
That is a perfect explanation FREECHEMIST, it makes more sense now. I thank you kindly for your response and wisdom. Would it be safe to say that the oxygen free water is beneficial in a scrubber unit? How would it help? I am now and have always been the kind of person that loves to take things apart, either literally or just in complete understanding of the working parts. I find chemistry very intriguing and must say I envy your knowledge. That being said, I can also admit that it takes me a Very long time to fully understand things, but, once I learn, I can never forget. I am trying to get my scrubber set up and would rather not blow myself up. Are you familiar with a Das Escape Inline? Here's my intentions: connect a Linberg quartz vacuum furnace to the Das scrubber. Id like to use the furnace for calcining, reducing, and pyrolyzing. Am I way off base here? Is this a realistic plan? Will it work? Is there any advice as to what I should avoid? Much obliged, Jonn.
freechemist
In Remembrance
Hi Jonn,
Now you're asking a whole bunch of questions, from which I deduce, that you actually dont't know much about scrubbers and their general functioning.
The task of a scrubber (as far as I know) is, to eliminate noxious vapours and gasses from waste-gas-streams originating from various processes forming probably harmful volatile byproducts. This is done by collecting/neutralizing these hazardous substances in water and/or aqueous solutions containing appropriate dissolved chemicals, e.g. lye to neutralize acids.
Therefor it doesn't matter, what non-hazardous gases else are dissolved in the scrubbing liquid. Use of oxygen-free water is useless and doesn't help anything.
With the "ESCAPE"-system I am not familiar. As I can understand it, it's basical principle is, to mix the waste gas-stream with a fuel gas, followed by burning the mixed gas-stream in a ring-shaped burner. In the flame-zone of this burner various chemical reactions take place, and possibly hazardous components are broken down thermochemically, leading to smaller and more easily treatable units, which are absorbed and/or neutralized by the following scrubber-unit.
Concerning your idea, to connect a vacuum furnace to a scrubber-unit, my only advice is, don't do it. Burner and scrubber together are a way-in-way-out-unit, open on both ends. A vacuum furnace on the other hand is usually used as a wayout-unit, which, when used for thermal treatment under vacuum is only one-end open, to the vacuum line (pump creating and holding the vacuum).
Regards, freechemist
Now you're asking a whole bunch of questions, from which I deduce, that you actually dont't know much about scrubbers and their general functioning.
The task of a scrubber (as far as I know) is, to eliminate noxious vapours and gasses from waste-gas-streams originating from various processes forming probably harmful volatile byproducts. This is done by collecting/neutralizing these hazardous substances in water and/or aqueous solutions containing appropriate dissolved chemicals, e.g. lye to neutralize acids.
Therefor it doesn't matter, what non-hazardous gases else are dissolved in the scrubbing liquid. Use of oxygen-free water is useless and doesn't help anything.
With the "ESCAPE"-system I am not familiar. As I can understand it, it's basical principle is, to mix the waste gas-stream with a fuel gas, followed by burning the mixed gas-stream in a ring-shaped burner. In the flame-zone of this burner various chemical reactions take place, and possibly hazardous components are broken down thermochemically, leading to smaller and more easily treatable units, which are absorbed and/or neutralized by the following scrubber-unit.
Concerning your idea, to connect a vacuum furnace to a scrubber-unit, my only advice is, don't do it. Burner and scrubber together are a way-in-way-out-unit, open on both ends. A vacuum furnace on the other hand is usually used as a wayout-unit, which, when used for thermal treatment under vacuum is only one-end open, to the vacuum line (pump creating and holding the vacuum).
Regards, freechemist
Correct again, I don't know much about scrubbers. But more today than last week, and hopefully more next month. Learning should be a constant endeavor. I am not emberassed by my ignorance, therefore I ask questions. You are very helpful and I certainly appreciate it.
On the vacuum furnace, if the tube was modified to have circulation, rather than constant vacuum, Would that work? For instance, air in one end, fumes out the other into the scrubber? The scrubber has a vacuum, the fittings are the same as the furnace tube. I would eliminate the Leybold 90 vacuum pump via a 3 way valve and connect to suction on the scrubber. The back end would have a one way valve of sorts to allow flow in and prevent exhaust. That way the tube would be cleansed continuously therefore allowing incineration to occur. Any thoughts? Thank you, Jonn.
Ps.I am very thankful to have such a tremendous wealth of knowledge on this forum, we all have busy lives and to think that there is such a place as this is amazing.
On the vacuum furnace, if the tube was modified to have circulation, rather than constant vacuum, Would that work? For instance, air in one end, fumes out the other into the scrubber? The scrubber has a vacuum, the fittings are the same as the furnace tube. I would eliminate the Leybold 90 vacuum pump via a 3 way valve and connect to suction on the scrubber. The back end would have a one way valve of sorts to allow flow in and prevent exhaust. That way the tube would be cleansed continuously therefore allowing incineration to occur. Any thoughts? Thank you, Jonn.
Ps.I am very thankful to have such a tremendous wealth of knowledge on this forum, we all have busy lives and to think that there is such a place as this is amazing.
