N2 + H2O question:: incinerator/ scrubber

[freechemist]

Hi Jonn,

I still can't see any reason for using a vacuum furnace in your intended calcining, reducing, and pyrolyzing experiments. These are best done using a simple flow-through-system, scrubber included, under normal atmospheric pressure. - Besides, I don't know anything concrete about your real intentions and planning precisely. I can only repeat, what I said in my last post: don't do it! - especially as long as you don't understand a very big lot more about what you would like to do, what processes and instruments you would like to install, together with their precise functioning in detail, - and last, but not least, - the inhering dangers connected unevitabely with them and with their use together.

Regards, freechemist

 

[jonn]

Thank you for your time freechemist, my intentions are as follows:
Use a Lindberg 55666 with a stainless tube 300 series. Ported in front and in back with KF-40 flange. Inlet will receive an anti back flow device to allow air in but not out. Outlet KF flange to Das Escape KF flange vacuum. Inside the tube I am planning on incinerating polymer based metal bearing material and north south bridge, ic chips, and other similar material. Plastic bearing gold parts. The tube furnace seems convenient because Its easier to seal a round tube, the parts are readily available. I have read the topic on INCINERATION here on the forum. It's basically similar to my intentions. Incinerate inside a tube and send the smoke to the scrubber. What am I to look out for in your experience?
Safety first of course, that's why I'm asking. Thank you, Jonn.

 

[g_axelsson]

I have followed this topic for a while now and my feeling is that you are probably doing something stupid that will get you into a real mess. What you have is a scrubber but all scrubbers aren't the same. You wouldn't use a porsche to run collection runs of old computers, you would use a cheaper car with large loading capacity.
Going back to your scrubber it seems to be a unit ment to scrub processing gases from a semiconductor product line, not something ment for heavy duty incineration gases. In the bottom seems to be an oil diffusion pump and that is working only in 1/100 of an atmosphere and less pressure. It would also clog up with soot in the first run and would need a total breakdown and cleaning to get going again, not to mention the new vacuum diffusion oil would cost $100 or more.

Maybe you can use it for a scrubber after rebuilding it, but I would sell it at http://www.labx.com/ and use the money to build one of the proven designs that are here on the forum.

I could be wrong as I have only seen your unit on pictures and I haven't inspected it in person.

Göran

 

[jonn]

Goran, I see your point on the Porsche example. Thank you, the Das is rated at 300slm. Is that not enough? I like the design of the Das as it burns and scrubs. If it's not able to handle the capacity then I will sell it on labx.I have not fired this up yet, still doing research. What better place than the forum? There's a wealth of knowledge here. What do you use? Did you build a homemade unit? Can you post pictures? I have been searching this forum and found a lot of home made stuff that seems really dirty, I would not use a BBQ grill and I have no interest in using charcoal or wood. I'm sure there's lots of nasties going up the flue that may not even be visible. I would love to see what you use, please. Pm me if you don't want it public. I'm not trying to reinvent the wheel here, I simply want the cleanest way to incinerate. The size of the tube by the way is 6" round and 36" long. I'm sure I'm missing something here, not sure what though Thanks, Jonn.

 

[jonn]

I just reread your post. It would clog with soot in the first run, got it. I will put that pump under a microscope and see what it can handle before proceeding. Thanks Goran.

 

[g_axelsson]

I have an idea of an incinerater but I haven't built anything yet. I'm only doing some hobby refining on the small side.

What is 300slm? I don't recognise that unit and I have never worked with scrubbers or incineration units, but I have worked with vacuum systems and pumps.

If you run the system and it is totally clogged up by the soot from the incineration then you may have contaminated it to the point that it's no longer worth anything.
Is it an oil diffusion pump in the bottom? If it is then you should know that it is designed to pump gases under vacuum and only gases. Any solids as soot will get stucked in the oil. If the oil gets too sticky it could really ruin the pump. An oil diffusion pump is working by boiling oil and sending it out in supersonic speed towards a cold surface, dragging along any gas molecules that happened to get in the way. As the oil condenses the gas is trapped in the oil and flows back into the bottom of the pump.

But as I told you before, I haven't inspected your unit and the only one that can do that is you. The decision is yours.

Göran

 

[jonn]

I have an idea of an incinerater but I haven't built anything yet. I'm only doing some hobby refining on the small side.


I would love to see what the pros use, do you have plans you could show?


What is 300slm? I don't recognise that unit and I have never worked with scrubbers or incineration units, but I have worked with vacuum systems and pumps.

SLM is standard liter per minute. 1 SLM is 16.7 ATM, (atmosphere). 1 ATM = 14.69 psi . 14.69 x 16.7 = 245.323 psi = 1 SLM.
This is based on an online conversion chart.
I had a friend look this and he calculated a complete evacuation of the tube 12 times per minute. Seems pretty good I think.
That pump is a combination Roots and Dry pump.

 

[kjt124]

Sorry to hop in on this one being that I haven't posted in a while (lurking, of course), but you have freechemist so upset he has lost the ability to spell...

I need to interject some things or my conscience will not let it go.

jonn - you are trying to find your way through the Arabian desert using a map of Detroit. The unit you are trying to use as a combustion scrubber is purely for the very low concentration, but very specifically nasty fumes coming out of the semi-conductor industry. I imagine it would likely be used in a vapor deposition / RTP process for silicon chips or the like. These fumes bear no resemblance whatsoever to what you are proposing for it.

I will pop into a paragraph reminiscent of all the older cats on here that have been doing this stuff a heck of a long time while keeping all of their fingers and toes. Stop everything you are doing. Read this forum until you think you've read the whole thing. Then read it for triple that time more. I am only now figuring out how little I know. There are cats on here like Geo that have backyard setups with the simplest of materials that put some of the well funded guys to shame.

You have access to very fancy equipment, but if you don't use it correctly you will have a very fancy hole in your lung. Start by looking up pyrolysis. Follow it up by a study on combustion byproducts of the materials you are trying to incinerate, and then design your system with that in mind.............. or you could simply follow the advise of the people on this forum that already have done what you are trying to do. Look carefully - it is all there.

Also, SLM (Standard Liters per Minute) is a flowrate unit. ATM (Atmosphere) is a pressure unit. There is no conversion between the two without considering viscosity/effusion rates of the fluids in which you are working and some sort of time differential factor. It would make sense to say that a unit is capable of delivering 1 SLM at 16.7 ATM. Given that you could calculate mass flow rate of a fluid at a given temperature, but converting one to the other is like asking how many volts are in a watt. It doesn't make physical sense.

This forum is amazing, but only if you treat it like any other tool - with respect. I made some hasty "before my time" posts and looking back I know now that I wasn't even making sense with some of the things I was proposing. I decided I better get one heck of a lot smarter and find the information that is already laid out before me before I ask the same uneducated questions that pop up so frequently on this forum <huge respect to the level of patience the 'elders' on this forum exercise - many thanks> If you come back with a bit more knowledge of your subject and are looking for a bit of polish on your technique, then these are clearly the guys to help you. They are doing this out of charity (which is severely lacking today). You need to meet them half way, though.

Much luck!

PS - all of the educated people on here seem to LOVE pictures.

 

[jonn]

Freechemist, after further research, I think you are correct about a flow through system. I spoke to a semiconductor manufacturer who is using these same setups in his work. He says to eliminate the vacuum and install a blower on one end of the tube. The output side would go straight into the Das unit converting the carbon monoxide with help from the blower. I'm sure the flow rate of the blower will need to be adjusted to coincide with the ability of the Das. The waste gases would first come into contact with the afterburner. Any solids would be diverted downwards by the hat and the scrubbing liquid. I will post a quote from the Das technical manual shortly as to the function capabilities of the unit.
Thank you for your valuable time and knowledge freechemist and goran.
Kj, I would thank you kindly to stop posting irrelevant garbage on my thread.

 

[jonn]

Das Design and Function, from the technical manual:

A circular burner is located in the centre of the rotationally symmetric reaction chamber, with the waste gas inlet at it's centre. This construction allows the waste gas stream to pass directly through the flame. The burner is operated with a hydrogen/oxygen mixture. The incineration process is boosted if flammable waste gases are let into the burner, which is monitored by 2 flame sensors (fs1, fs2).

The energy of the flame causes the destruction of the chemical compounds if the waste gas is in the reactor flame. The fragmentation products oxidize in the flame. Solid reaction products are deposited on the factor lining. The reactor can be changed and cleaned easily and the waste gas outlet of the burner can be cleaned in an automatic cycle by the wiper that is moving over solid reaction products that are grown out on the burner nozzle. The wiper is driven pneumatically. It's end positions are monitored (p1,p2)

Toxic species, which do not oxidize during incineration and which remain in the gaseous state, are hydrolyzed. For this process, the waste gas is let out of the burner chamber and scrubbed with scrubbing water from spray nozzles.

Hydrogen hydrides which are produced during incineration are absorbed by the scrubbing liquid.

The liquid which is used for scrubbing the waste gasses fulfills two purposes:
- cooling of the system
- absorption of those particles which are oxidized but not adsorbed by the reactor lining.

Between the spray nozzles above the reactor, packing material enlarges the contact surface of water and gas. A demister/dehumidifier is located at the waste gas outlet.

The gases which have been cleaned and scrubbed by the complex disposal process meet legal requirements and can be emitted into the environment.

^^^^ this is exactly word for word from the technical manual ^^^^

 

[freechemist]

Jonn,

Proper incineration, as I understand it, is a combination of two independent processes, namely pyrolysis and combustion. Strictly spoken: pyrolysis means breakdown of bigger entities (e.g. molecules, like polymers) to smaller entities (much smaller molecules, like the original monomers, the pyrolyzed polymers are built up from) by input of thermal energy, under the exclusion of oxygen. Combustion means reaction of a substance with (atmospheric) oxygen, often under deliberation of energy (heat). Solid products, remaining after such completed, combined pyrolysis-combustion processes are called ashes. With this formulation I try to make a little bit more understandable to you, what you are intending actually to do.

kjt124, whom you call kj supposedly in your post, does something similar in his post, trying to show to you, where your own understanding of your intentions is failing, and he gives you, precisely formulated, a concrete example of physical entities, you are confusing, not understanding them. Designing his post as irrelevant garbage on your thread means to me, that you, despite your so called further research, still do not understand, and therefor further help from my side may be useless, too.

freechemist

 

[jonn]

Thanks freechemist. I must admit, looking back over kjt's post, I can't remember what set me off, other than the last comment. The educated people LOVE pictures? I guess it just made think of reading a comic book, not very educational in my opinion. Sorry kj, still friends I hope. Thanks for your time freechemist, it truly means a lot to me

 

[butcher]

I do not understand this much either, I think I might just a little bit,
(But then again just a little bit, is a whole lot of misunderstanding or confusion).

Maybe if kjt124, or freechemist can give us a simple explanation, to drive home the point, in good old farm boy language, something like Pyrolysis/combustion a two part process of burning wood, which could be a one part process like Pyrolysis where wood is converted to carbon (wood incinerated with lack of oxygen) to make charcoal (incomplete combustion).

Or combustion of wood, (which seems to me to be partly composed of Pyrolysis in part of the process) combustion of wood where Pyrolysis begins, but with combustion air added to the un-burnt gases from the wood, where combustion of the wood and smoke carbon monoxide is combined with excess air in combustion of the fuel to form carbon dioxide.

Wood burnt with excess oxygen converted to carbon dioxide gas, steam and ashes (minerals the tree picked up from the soil), with possibly some NOx gas with reaction with nitrogen in air and oxygen in the heat of combustion).

If I understand this pyrolized wood (carbon) is still a fuel source, and still can be combusted (farm boy term for burnt to ashes) with heat and air.

And maybe how this burner might convert fumes which might not easily be scrubbed (absorbed into solution) to chemical fumes, which will be easier scrubbed.

or how the burner may destroy (or convert) some fume with pyrolisis to safer flue gases, and other fumes which may need complete combustion to make them safer as flue gas, or scrubbed flue gases, as some of these would not be safe as flue gas but can be captured or converted in a chemical solution.

But then again I may have to enroll in a few farm boy chemistry classes even to understand this simple idea (it is begining to not look so simple) when we start throwing something in the fire besides wood.

Jonn I think you might have a race car, that it may be hard to convert into an old farm truck to haul wood.

 

[jonn]

Thank you Butcher, thank you a thousand times. I am always amazed as to your understanding and down home simple explanations.
What you explained is exactly what I need to know. I have a race car. Let's call it a Porsche, Goran said I wouldn't be able to use a Porsche to haul old computers so we will call it that.
Now, if I came across a huge pile of computers while driving my Porsche, I would do as follows :
Since I did not have my truck at the time, I would remove the CPUs, the memory or ram cards, the finger boards and any ics that had sockets.
I would load those into my Porsche and drive away. Part of the problem is now solved.
I would later come back with my big ol diesel pick em up truck, and get the rest. The other part of the problem solved.

Same concept I would apply here with this machine.
I consider this unit a final and complete destruction of any and all other nasty crap that would otherwise not be treated by simple burning. So, in country boy terms, I am looking for a way to connect this into the process for complete treatment. Examples: Jonn, you should run your smoke through water first, it would cool the smoke and pick up the solids that may otherwise harm your machine.??
Or, Jonn, if your big ol diesel truck can tow your Porsche, you could put the high grade parts in the Porsche. You could put the low grade parts in the back of your truck. When you get home, simply disconnect your truck from your Porsche, give a good look at your low grade stuff to make sure you got everything removed that you want to keep. Take that pile with your truck to the scrap yard and sell your junk metal. Come home, pick up your Porsche and drive over to Butchers house so he and you could grab a beer and process your high grade stuff :lol: :roll: :mrgreen:

Now , I hope this makes sense to all those folks more white collar than I. Being a country boy, what else do I need in order to use this machine safely?
I'm certain that if Geo and NoIdea were around, we would get this thing going. Even something as basic as vacuuming the remaining fumes into this thing would be a kick. Who knows, It might even be fun. :idea:

 

[qst42know]

Is this the device you are trying to adapt?

http://www.goldrefiningforum.com/phpBB3/viewtopic.php?f=58&t=16488

I think this device is far to specialized to adapt to scrubbing refining or incineration wastes. What works for fluorine compound fumes from silicon chip manufacturing quite possibly won't work on anything else, at least not without the help of one or more chemical engineers. Perhaps not even with their help.

 

[jonn]

Yes qst42know, that's the one. My goal is to use it as a final or end stage incinerator/ scrubber. Circuit boards when burned produce fluorine products as well as other junk that will not be handled by fire alone. I know most people don't burn circuit boards, ( I hope not). I am hoping that I may incorporate this unit into a chain of processes that would allow Anything to be reduced to ash and processed further for values. It is this chain of processes that I'm trying to figure out. If it works like I'm hoping it will, complete boards can be turned to ash, ball milled to crush any ceramics, and poured into blister copper anode bars. The copper would be refined in the cell and the sludge would get processed for gold, silver and pgm's. Harold once said that ewaste should be done in volume, I agree. I am in contact with an engineer in hopes that we may figure this out together. I will post any advancements or progress. (it would truly be nice to know that a system like this has been figured out and is in perfect working order, ewaste is a problem I'm determined to find a solution for, at least on a small scale). Thanks all, Jonn.

 

[kjt124]

Simply in an effort to qualify the statement I made in my post:

PS - all of the educated people on here seem to LOVE pictures.

By educated people I meant the people you and I would direct our questions to which we hope are more educated than us in the particular subject that pertains - I was making no blanket statement or allusion to a lack of intelligence on anyone's part. However, it is possible that I made a careless paraphrase that was misconstrued. If that is the case then I apologize. I will not be as careless next time.

Also, the mentors here do, indeed, love pictures. Even if they don't know what you are talking about when you describe your device a simple picture can prompt them to ask the questions that pull out the information you are inadvertently not volunteering.

Back to the point, it is becoming more clear now what your aim actually is and it sounds much less careless then before, however the same issue remains. You haven't described what the initial steps you plan to use for your scrubber system are. You can't design the end piece without knowing what will feed into it. It is true that burning circuit boards will produce a small amount of fluorinated flue gas compounds, but in general those are easily scrubbed out of flue gas by running a counter current vertical packed column where the flue gas is is bubbled in the bottom and a weak caustic solution is run in the top. Sodium LOVES fluoride. You will never destroy the fluoride you are concerned about. If I can figure out how to link things I will post an excellent pdf from one of the other members here depicting a scrubber system. It was intended for use with AR process vapor, but if you know what you are trying to scrub you could easily determine appropriate scavenging ions to add to the water to make it an extremely effective scrubbing unit (especially if it were the last stage before discharge).

Also, there is an enormous variety of compounds that will come out of burning circuit boards that you are not addressing depending on the circuit boards, the age of them, how hot your incinerator is, etc. I would think that the fluorinated compounds are likely the least of your worries. I would be FAR more concerned with dioxins and furans that DO NOT break down in an incinerator and will kill you. Most commercial incinerators (even hazardous waste rated ones) are entirely incapable of destroying these compounds. In fact, if memory serves me correctly, that only one left in North America permitted to destroy dioxin bearing material is the Clean Harbors facility in Port Arthur, TX (where they were supposed to have destroyed all the Saran gas years ago).

This is why I said look through the forum and look for someone that has done what you are trying to do instead of asking blindly for someone to fill in the blanks for you around a machine that is not intended for what you mean to do. You should see that people here are very willing to help - it is only polite to provide as much information about your intended process as possible (minus any sensitive trade secrets that you maintain a profit on) so that no one is wasting their time by responding to your questions. It is win/win if you do your homework and present the "whole picture" before asking someone to fill in the blanks.

Hopefully my link is to follow in the next post.

 

[kjt124]

http://goldrefiningforum.com/phpBB3/viewtopic.php?f=40&t=12586&p=128800&hilit=lab+hood%2C+ventilation+%26+scrubber#p128609

This is the one I was referring to which I believe was originally posted by HigginsMechanical

This is another one that is a little more complicated posted originally (I believe) by smj:

http://goldrefiningforum.com/phpBB3/viewtopic.php?f=40&t=15950&p=160596&hilit=scrubber+setup#p160596

 

[kjt124]

... The first link - scroll to the first post in that thread and click on the pdf link

 

[qst42know]

Before you possibly ruin this device for its intended purpose perhaps you should investigate scrubbers designed specifically for incinerators. And then investigate scrubbers specifically for e-waste incinerators The technology may be vastly different.

There are far too many variables in both scale and scope to assume any old scrubber might do.

http://www.google.com/search?q=incinerator+scrubber&hl=en&tbo=u&qscrl=1&rlz=1T4GZAB_enUS459US459&tbm=isch&source=univ&sa=X&ei=_W_8UMaYMMPrqAHmuIH4Cw&sqi=2&ved=0CDkQsAQ&biw=1440&bih=646