Need some info about borax for flux

[Harold_V]

Harold, the "book: i was referring too was Hokes book that I downloaded from the form and have read several times. If you take a look Hoke does not really give a great deal of information about Borax flux and the proper use o, at least not that I could find

First, to be clear, I have no need to "take a look". I'm not the one asking the questions, nor am I the one who is confused about how much borax is needed, or desired.

I find it strange that you claim to have read Hoke's book "several times", yet you'd post something like this:

The gold was not that clean because I thought the other metals would burn off and the gold form by itself

You clearly have learned nothing from Hoke's book.

I just want to learn how to recover and refining, the tools needed for this and the basic, underling principles surrounding these processes

Contrary to your opinion, that's precisely what the readers have tried to give you. They know, as do I, what you must know in order to process precious metals to some degree of success. There are no shortcuts---you simply have to jump through the hoops until you understand the procedures. If you're not willing to take the time to achieve that end, you're not only wasting your time, you're wasting ours, and I don't take too kindly to that.

Here's what you need to do.

Start reading Hoke's book. Really read it. Don't thumb through it, picking and choosing what you think you need to know. Read it all, then read it again. Read it until it makes sense to you. If it never makes sense, refining is not for you. Find a different way to amuse yourself.

Assuming the book starts to make sense, perform the experiments she provides. Without doing them, you won't understand the things you need to know to refine properly. There are many instances where metals in solution will look like gold, but the solution may not contain any. How will you make that determination if you are not familiar with testing techniques? How will you know if or when you have recovered gold that has been put in solution?

Don't continue this bombardment of apologies and explanations. I expect I'm old enough to be your grandfather, and I've seen and heard pretty much every excuse that can be conjured in regards to why a person won't put aside the entitlement attitude and get on with the business of learning. Do not ask questions. You aren't prepared for the answers, as you clearly do not understand any of the basics.

No one is going to hold your hand long enough for you to learn to refine without learning the basics, because each of us knows well that such people never stop asking stupid questions. That's not what we're here for. We're here to help those who know how to, and are willing to help themselves.

I am very short of patience with some folks. To put it bluntly, I do not suffer fools gladly. I, as well as all moderators on this board, have the power to ban you. Don't give us any reasons beyond those you've already given. Pay attention to what you've been told, study as if it means something to you, and report on your progress. Failing to to that, I see a banishment in your future.

It is up to you to prove to us that you are not the fool I spoke of. Are you? Your response to this post will be all telling.

Harold

 

[searcher1x]

Harold,

First, to be clear, I have no need to "take a look". I'm not the one asking the questions, nor am I the one who is confused about how much borax is needed, or desired.

You're right. I stand corrected

I find it strange that you claim to have read Hoke's book "several times", yet you'd post something like this:

The gold was not that clean because I thought the other metals would burn off and the gold form by itself

Actually, I beg too differ. Not so strange considering Hoke states:

"Cupellation is the process of melting an alloy containing lead with precious metals, in the presence of air. The lead is oxidized to litharge, which liquefies and dissolves the oxides of the base metals and carries them into a liquid layer than can be poured or bailed off, leaving behind a precious metal alloy of much higher value than that with which the cupellation started. This method of concentrating the valuable metals will be mentioned again in later chapters."

You clearly have learned nothing from Hoke's book.

Not entirely correct, I learned that cupellation, still in use today, has been around much longer than the chemical/acid method of refining PM's. Granted, the highest level of purity one might reach through cupellation is around 995%, and only then after multiple remelts, while levels of purity as high as 999.99% are possible using chemical/acid refining techniques, at this early stage of my education I would be perfectly content with levels of 995% purity. Truth be know, even purity levels lower than 995% would be acceptable, at this early stage of learning I just wanted to see some form of positive progress to reinforce what I had learned so far. Any gold recovered, regardless of the purity level, could always be reprocessed and refined to a higher level of purity at some future date as knowledge was gained.

Manhatten Gold & Silver writes:"Cupellation kick-started the Bronze Age and is still being used in refineries around the world. The cupellation process is one of the best ways to extract these precious metals. The cupel must be made of porous, calcified material so it can absorb lead without causing a reaction. The alloy is placed in the cupel and heated. Lead’s melting point is much lower than that of precious metals. This, coupled with the fact that precious metals do not readily oxidize, is what makes cupellation so effective. Hot air is blown across the cupel, which causes the lead to oxidize. The newly formed lead oxide, or litharge, is absorbed by the cupel, leaving only precious metals behind. "

Considering Hoke's comments on cupellation combined with Manhatten Gold & Silvers statements, logic dictated that cupellation provided an alternative to the chemical/acid refining technique and, at my current level of knowledge, was a good place to start.

I just want to learn how to recover and refining, the tools needed for this and the basic, underling principles surrounding these processes

Contrary to your opinion, that's precisely what the readers have tried to give you. They know, as do I, what you must know in order to process precious metals to some degree of success. There are no shortcuts---you simply have to jump through the hoops until you understand the procedures. If you're not willing to take the time to achieve that end, you're not only wasting your time, you're wasting ours, and I don't take too kindly to that.

Many of the users of this forum have been helpful but many more have been less than helpful and to some degree, critical, even somewhat arrogant. Those users seem to always respond with a standard, canned comment so often repeated on this forum along the lines of "Read Hoke's book and search the forum. There is an answer to every question somewhere within". You know what, that's a true statement and can be applied to every question one has in life. Somewhere out there an answer to every question is waiting to be found and given enough time, effort and persistence, they can be found. However, when someone takes the time to provide the answer a question raised rather than assume the higher ground with a canned response, it sure can be helpful and appreciated. In most cases (not all), it takes just as much time to answer a question as it does to type in the standard, canned response. Imagine that.

Here's what you need to do. Start reading Hoke's book. Really read it. Don't thumb through it, picking and choosing what you think you need to know. Read it all, then read it again. Read it until it makes sense to you. If it never makes sense, refining is not for you. Find a different way to amuse yourself.

Interesting choice of words. Perhaps to you, and some others, the pursuit of knowledge is a form of amusement, but that's not the way I am amused. Pursuit of knowledge is a serious, time consuming, 100% commitment if one expects to succeed. To date I have read Hoke's book 5 times and (surprise!) I even take notes. More and more, with every re-read, it makes more sense. Knowledge missed is knowledge gained. What was once "googly-gobble" is starting to make sense.

Don't continue this bombardment of apologies and explanations.

Sorry if my "apologizes and explanations" offend you but I am not so insecure in myself where I am above apologizing or admitting I am wrong when necessary.

I expect I'm old enough to be your grandfather,

Again, an interesting choice of words. For the record, there is a good chance I might have a few years on you. Worst case, we are around the same age.

I've seen and heard pretty much every excuse that can be conjured in regards to why a person won't put aside the entitlement attitude and get on with the business of learning.

With regards to refining and recovery of PM's, I imagine you have heard and seen it all, but you are dead wrong about having a "entitlement attitude". The only thing in life me or anyone else is entitled too is the right to die, period. Once born you are entitled to die. Whether you accept this is or not is your choice. I don't feel or believe that anyone owes me anything. What I know and what I have learned has been achieved through dedicated, hard work. No one has ever given me anything, nor do I expect to be given anything, I am willing to do what is required to achieve what I desire.

Do not ask questions. You aren't prepared for the answers, as you clearly do not understand any of the basics.

Done! never again will I post another question on this forum, that's not a problem. Truth be known the benefits from few questions which have been answered do not outweigh the grief associated with the aggravation and arrogant attitude that seems to follow by older, long standing members who refuse to help.

No one is going to hold your hand long enough for you to learn to refine without learning the basics, because each of us knows well that such people never stop asking stupid questions. That's not what we're here for. We're here to help those who know how to, and are willing to help themselves.

Really? From what I have read and seen that does not ring true. Yes, there are many who have a different attitude and choose to help others with there questions, but many, like yourself, seem more interested in finding fault, insulting and making threatening remarks as a way to bolstering self image. One other point, no question is a stupid question and if you believe otherwise then you need to get off your high horse and take a good look in the mirror.

I am very short of patience with some folks.

At last we agree on something!

To put it bluntly, I do not suffer fools gladly. I, as well as all moderators on this board, have the power to ban you. Don't give us any reasons beyond those you've already given. Pay attention to what you've been told, study as if it means something to you, and report on your progress. Failing to to that, I see a banishment in your future. It is up to you to prove to us that you are not the fool I spoke of. Are you? Your response to this post will be all telling.

Ever noticed that so many times in life the one who sees the need to label others as a fool is more often than not the real fool? If you think me a fool, so be it, but I have no need or desire to prove anything to you or anyone else for that matter. Remember what I said earlier, my self image is not that low and I could not care less what you think or believe you "know". Yes, I fully understand you have the power on banishment and I am under no misconception that you will hesitate to use that power. That's the easy way to deal with those who you don't see eye-to-eye with or those who refuse to see you in the same light you have cast yourself in.

I fully expect to be banned for this post and I don't have a problem with that. I have experienced much in my life and have witnessed the "better than though" attitude" on more than one occasion but never have I found a forum where so many of the members have displayed such arrogance and rudeness as this forum. It's really such a shame, there is much knowledge and information that many of the forum members have to offer but instead have chosen to come across as arrogant, ruder, short tempered, miserable people in the power seat. Bet you didn't know that when I first joined this forum I had a moderator contact me and threaten me because they did not like my avatar of the snake wrapped around the constitution? Those, like yourself, who obviously have mastered the art of refining & recovery of PM's seem more interested in searching out and finding fault with others, and offering little, if any, help when questions are posed, and then only if your'e having a good day. You leave the impression that (as you stated earlier) all questions are stupid questions and beneath you. Why questions agitated you to such a degree is beyond me, perhaps it has to do with self image. What you think?

Either way, let the hammer fall and banish me to the world of never-never-land. I know that's much easier than having someone around who is not intimidated by your arrogance and has not problems with telling you what they, and so many others think but are scared to say.

 

[jimdoc]

You still here? With your crappy attitude.

 

[g_axelsson]

I fully expect to be banned for this post and I don't have a problem with that. I have experienced much in my life and have witnessed the "better than though" attitude" on more than one occasion but never have I found a forum where so many of the members have displayed such arrogance and rudeness as this forum.

I would hate to disappoint you... you're banned! :mrgreen:

It's really such a shame, there is much knowledge and information that many of the forum members have to offer but instead have chosen to come across as arrogant, ruder, short tempered, miserable people in the power seat. Bet you didn't know that when I first joined this forum I had a moderator contact me and threaten me because they did not like my avatar of the snake wrapped around the constitution?

That would have been me. I did that to protect you, letting you stay on the forum. I saw it as a direct provocation when you changed into that avatar after you was forced into apologize your initial bad attitude. I saw that as trying to claim a right to express your opinion. You don't have to write something to provoke people, symbols works as well.
As I wrote then, you do have the right of expression as an US citizen, but that doesn't give you the right to express whatever you want here. You can go somewhere else to vent your frustration.

I also kept it quiet via PM to not expose you, yet again to allow you to stay on the forum.

Those, like yourself, who obviously have mastered the art of refining & recovery of PM's seem more interested in searching out and finding fault with others, and offering little, if any, help when questions are posed, and then only if your'e having a good day. You leave the impression that (as you stated earlier) all questions are stupid questions and beneath you. Why questions agitated you to such a degree is beyond me, perhaps it has to do with self image. What you think?

Either way, let the hammer fall and banish me to the world of never-never-land. I know that's much easier than having someone around who is not intimidated by your arrogance and has not problems with telling you what they, and so many others think but are scared to say.

We are not scared of Harold and I'm pretty sure no one is scared of me either. 8)

We are trying to keep a firm line of on topic forum, based on science and firm knowledge. The fact that this forum still exists and attracts both amateurs and professional people is a good sign that the sometime harsh rules is working well.

Well, as I have banned you it will give you time to think on what you sent me as last PM after I got you to change your avatar...

Thanks for your patience, sometimes I say things I regret later (I guess we all do that), but after I have time to think things over if I am in error I'll be the first to stand up and admit it. I never thought much of someone who always put the blame on someone else for their screw-ups. We all screw up, nothing wrong with that as long as you're willing to admit it.

Göran