NTR METALS...A++ Refiner!

[goldsilverpro]

Dan,

You have said a lot about the large variations of XRF readings on pins, drillings, and bars. On the other hand, you say that you know almost exactly the gold content when you take it to NTR, or whoever - if I read you right.

1. NTR is paying me almost exactly what my figured average is which within tenths of what my new SG scale calls it. 2. NTR started paying me 98.5%.

So now you're basing the value on specific gravity? In my experience, this would be the worst possible way. For example, depending mainly on the exact color the jeweler wanted, 14K yellow can contain from 25-40% Cu, 4-17% Ag, and 2-6% Zn and the S.G. of these mixes can vary from about 12.8 to 13.5. How can you pinpoint the gold content with a S.G. spread like that?

The only way to truly know the gold content is to refine the lot yourself. Lou once said that NTR doesn't do their own refining. If that is so, they are in a similar position that you are when dealing with whoever refines their gold. Also, your 500g lots are too small to warrant individual refining without higher charges. So, the true value of your lot is never known.

 

[4metals]

If you don't have a good XRF then speak up and admit it.

I do not own an XRF, they are a great tool for you to buy scrap, but not to settle for a refining lot. Personally I think the phrase "good XRF" is an oxymoron. I would never bet an XRf result against a classic fire assay. No self respecting refiner would either. Think about it, an XRF takes a minute and you're done. A fire assay requires chemicals, needs ovens and fume hoods, and generates waste. Not to mention that it will take a good 3 hours for a result. Why in the world would a refiner go through all of that crap if he could get the correct answer in 1 minute?

The answer is he can get an answer that is correct enough for a guestimate. Good enough to satisfy the customer who wants his money NOW. But not good enough to state your profits on it.

Maybe someday the XRF technology will get there, I haven't seen it yet.

 

[Lou]

EDITED for factuality.

In any case, XRF is a technology that is best utilized for sorting and rapid settlement. It is VERY nice to be able to identify what's what within a half percent or so. It's a screening tool to identify troublesome elements from the get-go and is suited for the production environment.


Some of the nicer WDXRF machines that are upwards of 180K (top of the line being about $400,000) can distinguish 99.99 fine gold from 99.95 gold (not without a comparative standard, however).

 

[Westerngs]

There is an ASTM method for determination of gold by fire assay (cupellation), ASTM E-1335. There is no ASTM method for determination of gold by XRF. I wonder why.

 

[Dan Dement]

Thanks to all for the great response.

right about now, most of your are thinking What an ****ole and your probaly right but I like scientific answers not wags. I am just as surprised as anyone with the results. All this came from experimenting with all the different tests so insure a proper payout without the president of the Quick Shot XRF company who has 20 years experience with XRF's. XRF's may not be your personal choice for full results and turnout some of the negative input comes from people who do not have one! All I can say is the so called refiner's all use $100,000 machine and my new $38,000 results are right up there with the results. I don't just reply on the XRF but also a new Alpha Mirage SG machine. There is a new model I just got from Japan and is based on a accurate diamond scale going to .001 carat. I have had the old one for three years and believe I have on the first ones in the country. As matter of fact, I bought 12 of them for different friends. So far it is right on within .10's of karats on the CU setting. The results are like gemology, yu learn to run all the tests!
FOR GSP,

I understand the difference in the alloys. We make all our platinum alloys. the SG scale actually figures the SG but has built in tables for Plat., silver alloys, copper alloys, silver/copper alloys and so far, it's with tenths of a karat of the payout. Certainly nice to have a second opinion that is independently accurate. As far as accuracy, I have over 30 master that I have and check the machine regulary with the masters. We calibrate and initialize the machine everyday and have several check metals that we run thru the day. The real proof is the check in the amount I calculate the fineness of the gold.

For 4metals.

I have many masters that I have purchased thru the years that have been triple checked by three different people that I use as standards. I am on my third XRF and keep upgrading as newer more accurate machines come amiable. I have a group of other stores who buy my year old equipment that I have gotten dialed in and buy at a discount. I have lots of equipment and the equipment manufactures sometimes ask me to beta test new machines and products. Ever seen a wand induction melter? i have had one for over 6 months. the first model, I melted the soldier joints in the wand trying to do 800 grams of silver. Got that corhave the amount finished rected and the new one will be available shortly. I should have a price this next week.

My method calculating price: I XRF the 4 corners of the top, XRF the bottom corners, then do the middle of all four sides. Get an average of the top, bottom, and cut it half and use that average. This three becomes my average for the piece. I compare that to the SG reading and the XRF, then XRF the cuttings which is always about 2% less. Now, when I walk into NTR I got the money figured to the penny. Usually we are with $20. of each other and that's close enough for me. The ability to turn the money several times a weeks far important than trying to squeeze the last quarter out of it.

I am going to continue the slicing the samples and see if I can figure out the cause. my next batch will start with a cool ingot, if the same things remain the same , I will try it in a hot ingot and a pin sample. Run the same tests and if the same, i will remelt and see what NTR comes up with. i might just refuse the offer and bring to store and slice it and run more tests. Now this would elimate the question if i mixed it well. NTR uses a 300 oz induction melter might mix it better or different than my small wand melter.

onward thru the fog! if nothing else, it is interesting. Sure separates the state art guys from the tried and true old school. Me, i am an old school guy who loves the toys.

Until next week, Guys.

Thanks again for th help and input.

Dan

 

[nickvc]

Dan I'm definitely with the old school stance I have seen too many results that I found doubtful to trust xrf readings completely, as you state these are toys but used properly can be very useful and give a good guide as to actual content. 4metals,GSP and Lou are all involved with commercial refining and they have their doubts about them, and if they do, I'm not likely to change my mind anytime soon and when you consider the big refiners pay on fire assays not xrf readings I think that says it all. They have their place and can save users from buying wrong if used properly but total reliance on them I feel is dangerous, your collection of standards is the best idea to get good readings but I'd be surprised if low % readings would be accurate, as reference to my stance I'm very friendly with one of the biggest gold buying outfits here in the UK who have used and even sold xrf guns for over 5 years and they still only buy bars based on fire assay results.

 

[Dan Dement]

NICK,

Thanks for the kind response and you know guys, I agree with you. Now, my experience is from a different viewpoint because I buy gold many times a day. I do not make my living buying gold as I have a succesful Jewelry Store that manufactures platinum & palladium jewelry. I spent over 30 years in the larger Diamond business on a wholesale level which is more in my area of expertise. Sturday, we sold three big stones from 1.75 to 3.07, all which I got to make custom mountings. I have a steady stream of people wanting to sell me gold as I pay an honest 82-85% using an XRF and SG. I melt almost everything we buy and return the stones or buy the stones. I need a quick, reliable pay to test gold without sending lots of time. I have used a SG machine for well over two years and find it to fairly accurate as long as you are dealing with a solid object. I just got teh newest version of the Aplha Mirage SG machine which is not out in teh US yet that uses a diamond balance accurate to .001 carat as the engine. The scale really only tests SG but has tables set up in it for the different alloys using Silver, Silver/Copper/Copper/ white gold alloys which is accurate to about .1-.2 tenths of a karat. Not bad and I have both the old one and the new one. If anyone wantsmore information. please PM me. I bought 12 oes these for friends and I sometimes help in their booth in att eh Vegas Show for free.

I must say that I greatly appreciate the time and effort of 4metals, Lou, GSP for their time and expertise. I understand that they deal in large quanities and dead on accuracy is a must for them. I am a "old School" guy too but do love the new technology. I appreciate the fact that I have an entirely different problem and viewpoint from what they face. I am in the turn and burn business as I am not really a gold nut thinking it is going thru the moon. I have my Geezer card and have been to Rodeo before. I want to treat my customers with a fair and accurate price and gold buying plays no part of my business plan. If I stop buying gold today, we will still be here doing business as always. I pay an honest 82-85% to the consumer and return the stones or buy them as a seperate issue. I know that the Guru's here are not faced with my problem and have never faced the questions that I have brought. Truth is, these type problems to not occur to them because A: They don't have the equipment that I have B: Are not problems to them.

Now, I am not a fan of the handheld XRF's. the handhelds are very maxed out in there output. My stationary machine runs on less than 2% of it's output. Kind of like comparing a VW Diesel Jetta to a Big Ford F350 truck and need to haul and pull things. I am on my third XRF machine because I keep wanting better, repeatable accuracy, and want faster readings. I sell my older machines to friends and get the latest and greatest toy. I think the proof of the issues is the checks that I get from NTR. My methods have been questioned so let me explain. I try to use all my tools! I weight in the air and weigh in teh water, the SG scale does the rest. I record the finding and dry it off and run all four corners on the top and then run all four corners on the bottom. I then turn it on edge and run the centers and I average top, bottom and side readings. I then cut it in half and run the dead center and yes, it's 1.5% or so less. the average of the top, bottom , and center is my number as long as the SG is within .2 karats and it usually is. I then take it to NTR and let them come up with there number and we have agreed with $20. bucks or so. When I have disagreed in the past, I would ask for a smple of the pin sample and readings so I can double check it with my XRF. In the past, I have sent off disagreements to get a third party readings which is now I have so many masters. I do business with NTR as I find they are honest with me and certainly have helped with my journey in gold buying.

Thanks to everyone and I will keep doing my experiments until I get it figured out. For me, to sit on the metal until I get large enough quanities to be important to big refiner does not make sense. To be able to take $10,200 and turn it into $12,000 several times a week is much more attractive than taking $100,000 and turning it to $125,000 with the danger of metals taking a dump. Certainly a much smaller down size risk and it's hard to go broke making a profit with little downside risk.

Thanks agina to all for the valuable input!

Dan

 

[jimdoc]

I do not make my living buying gold as I have a successful Jewelry Store that manufactures platinum & palladium jewelry.
Dan

Dan,
Would you be able to make rings like these periodic table rings, for a more reasonable amount than this other company is charging? Would you be able to make them from forum members metals, so they would be able to keep the metals they refined as these rings? A palladium ring would be cool also.
I was just wondering what should it cost to have a ring like these made?

http://gearcrave.com/2008-03-20/periodic-elements-rings-by-itsnoname/

Jim

 

[Dan Dement]

Jim,

The method I use is the Envisiontec Rapid Prototyping machine which is a Texas Instrument DLP chip. The method I use has certain strengths and weakness's. Strength are very high detail but does not cast thick items like class rings as the expansion of resin cracks the hardest of investments. Another problem is going to be the weight of these rings if you make them solid. I just had a model of ring smaller than what you are showing me and it weighted 55 grams in sz 11. Just guessing from the scale and thickness, you are looking at a 60 grams in 14kt if solid. Now, I got to say, 60 grams is too heavy for most people. I can get around my casting problem by either getting it cut in wax and casting the wax. Depending on the number of units and how close to being identical will make making a mold more economical. If I make the ring, I would recommend a square bottom to keep the ring from rolling. Ring size, solid casting, what gold karat are all factors I need to know to give you a price. Ball parking and guessing. To make the cad model it's going to be $250. To make the wax or ressin around $50. To cast $50 plus metal plus 20% . Understand, you pay the rough casting metal and you are going to lose metal in the refinishing process. Polish and finishing just depends on ow perfect you want it? You can figure 2-3 hours at $50 an hour. I have good employees who all have from 15 to 30 years experience. Cheap no, good yes! I am not going to be he cheapest at doing this as I mostly do high Platinum pieces and I don't have the cheapest labor.

Ok, to move on the 14kt ring is 60 grams solid, 18kt is 66 grams, 22 kt is around 72 but we got to harden it. So metal prices at $1750 is aprox. $1975, $2877, $3711. And now for PD, 54 gr $1258 95pd/5ir and plat $5250. 95PT/10ir. @ 96 gr. Happy to use your metal but understand need enough for button. I can do this but happy to send you a guy that might be able to do it a little cheaper. The only thing I need to do outside is get the wax cut as I grow 99% of what I do. Does not pay for me to have a $30,000 machine I use less than ten times a year.

Hope that fully answers your question.

Dan

 

[Dan Dement]

Sorry, I did not notice one was silver. Really, with my cost of labor, I am not your guy on the silver. If you have quantifies, I can get it done in Mexico.

Dan

 

[jimdoc]

Dan,
Thanks for the information. Sounds like you would be able to handle the job with no problems.
I would have to figure out what metal, and save up enough for the one I would want. It would be nice to have the set, but that would really ad up.

Jim

 

[kuma]

Hello all , how are tricks?
I hope all is well!
I remember these rings! 8)

Dan,
Would you be able to make rings like these periodic table rings, for a more reasonable amount than this other company is charging? Would you be able to make them from forum members metals, so they would be able to keep the metals they refined as these rings? A palladium ring would be cool also.
I was just wondering what should it cost to have a ring like these made?

Jim,
I have good employees who all have from 15 to 30 years experience. Cheap no, good yes! I am not going to be he cheapest at doing this as I mostly do high Platinum pieces and I don't have the cheapest labor.

Sorry, ...... I am not your guy on the silver. If you have quantifies, I can get it done in Mexico.

Dan

Ah well , back to the drawing board! :lol:
Just a thought while were on the subjest , but with the enthusiastic thread about the possibility of producing some GRF tee shirts , what are the chances that we could maybe put our heads together and design a GRF ring ?
This could be designed so that it's easier to cast and therefore more affordable , could be cast from any pm you would preffer , and would be a unique design to the forum ? :roll:
All the best for now guy's , and kind regards ,
Chris :mrgreen:

 

[Noxx]

I plan to design a GRF coin in the near future....

 

[nickvc]

For those this side if the pond I'm based in the Jewellery Quarter in Birmingham so getting anything made or designed is easy, many of my ex customers are manufacturers and to cad cam a ring like the ones Jim was looking at would cost around £75 / $125 I reckon and once produced it would be easy to run more off the memory, casting is easy in all metals here but the metal would need to be alloyed as fine metals are too soft for rings especially for guys.

 

[MiguelRosas]

If you don't have a good XRF then speak up and admit it.

I do not own an XRF, they are a great tool for you to buy scrap, but not to settle for a refining lot. Personally I think the phrase "good XRF" is an oxymoron. I would never bet an XRf result against a classic fire assay. No self respecting refiner would either. Think about it, an XRF takes a minute and you're done. A fire assay requires chemicals, needs ovens and fume hoods, and generates waste. Not to mention that it will take a good 3 hours for a result. Why in the world would a refiner go through all of that crap if he could get the correct answer in 1 minute?

The answer is he can get an answer that is correct enough for a guestimate. Good enough to satisfy the customer who wants his money NOW. But not good enough to state your profits on it.

Maybe someday the XRF technology will get there, I haven't seen it yet.

4Metals -

Slightly off topic, I agree and also disagree, but that's a whole other discussion - however do you not believe that the alchemist doing the fire assay is far more important than just saying Fire assay is better than XRF ... period ? I just want to point out that the individual must be knowledgable about the process or his results may be just as off as a cheap XRF- no?

 

[Noxx]

4Metals -

Slightly off topic, I agree and also disagree, but that's a whole other discussion - however do you not believe that the alchemist doing the fire assay is far more important than just saying Fire assay is better than XRF ... period ? I just want to point out that the individual must be knowledgable about the process or his results may be just as off as a cheap XRF- no?

Sorry, this is troubling me lol...

 

[Dan Dement]

Kuma & Noxx,

Guys,

The ring pictures are not real rings but computer created images. Looks real don't they?the big problem in doing these rings is the thickness and you are going to have to make the models in wax as the resins can't be cast this thickness. When you look at the relief in the letters, sure gives the appearance of the ring being solid. Casting gold and silver is sure a lot easier than doing platinum.is a whole different ballpark! However platinum is a walk in the park compared to Palladium as PD has to heated, melted, cast, and cooled in a vacuum or argon. If you don't, it's going to be brittle and crack. It's no big deal to make up the Cad design for these rings and might as well do a pendant. We do 15 to 20 every week. I have a great Cad artist that has worked for me for 6 years and does it 40 hours a week. Great people with the very best of equipment! However, this is no big deal to do and I am sure you can find somebody in India or Pakistan to do it cheaper. There your guys until you start talking Platinum or Palladium.

As far as 22k being too soft, the biggest Consumers of gold jewelry in the world is India according to 60 Minutes. All they buy is 22kt and it's passed down thru generations. A lot depends how you alloy it. Don't recommend it but that's all it is used in most "gold crazy" countries.

The Jewelry business is a lot like Gold Buyers! Everybody pays the most! Everybody is cheaper than I am but just don't produce the quality work!

 

[4metals]

One of the beautiful things about a fire assay is that you run duplicates. By running one or two duplicate assays you will know if your numbers are good or bad by the spread. So if your numbers are close, or have a small spread, you can be confident that your sample was homogeneous and your technique is good.

The ability to perform a classic fire assay and get good results is not limited to one trained in chemistry. It is more the ability to perform simple yet meticulous steps to separate the gold from the other metals in the alloy. It is actually more technique than anything but it is one that most can learn.

If you have a well set up assay lab, I could have you spitting out good numbers in a week of hands on training. I've done it many times.

 

[kuma]

Hello Noxx , how are tricks?
I hope your well chief!

I plan to design a GRF coin in the near future....

....sovereign rings.... 8)
All the best for now , and kind regards ,
Chris :mrgreen:

 

[kuma]

Hi Dan , how are tricks today?
I hope your well!

The ring pictures are not real rings but computer created images. Looks real don't they?

I really wasn't sure how to take the above , as they do indeed look pretty real.
It took me about two minutes to find their online shop ;

http://www.itsno.name/shop.php

The silver one is $295.00 usd ( £185.00 ) , so it's not too too astranomical compared to the rough pricing that you provided in your post above.
I understand that you were probably just throwing rough numbers out there , but I figured that if I were to pay for say 50 grams of fine silver from you towards a ring at todays spot , plus just the two hours labour (not the three) at $50 per hour , and with with the other charges ( $250 + 50 + 50 ) , the same silver ring would end up costing around $510.00.
On top of that there's the extra 20% , although I'm not sure if you mean an extra 20% of the value of the precious metal used , or of the entire cost of the ring.
Of course as you say , one could send in their own silver to have a ring made , but that still leaves an overall cost of $460 , if it only took two hours.
Is this difference in price down to the fact that itsno.name is making these rings in numbers ?
I guess I should have looked for these myself ages ago! :lol:
All the best , and kind regards ,
Chris :mrgreen:

(Edit to add question)