Palladium

[lazersteve]

The palladium produces a beautiful red-orange color in nitric.

Should the color be the same in other acids? I have dissolved some monolithic caps (aka cerdips) using acid peroxide and the solution is red-orange.

Steve

 

[goldsilverpro]

A friend of mine that owns probably the biggest jewelry refinery in L.A. (We've talked about his company of this forum), told me to first drop the platinum with ammonium chloride and then make the solution alkaline with ammonia. He said that the palladium, in an ammoniacal solution, would drop with the ammonium chloride also. No need for dimethyl gloxime (I hate that stuff).

Have you ever tried this, Harold? It sounds easier than most other methods. Recently, I read of a similar pH switch method, for Pt and Pd, on the internet, but I think they used a different reductant.

A large refinery I worked for dissolved the Pt group in a tube furnace using chlorine gas.

There's a super chemical called sodium borohydride that will drop about just about any metal out of about any solution. For example, a pound of this stuff will drop out 8 pounds of silver, as silver metal. I imagine it will drop Pt group. I'll look it up.

There's a lot of ways to skin a cat when refining Pt group metals.

There's probably not over 10 or 20 good Pt group refiners in the country. Platinum group is easy to recover, difficult to separate, and a bitch to purify. A person that mastered this could make a bunch of money.

 

[goldsilverpro]

Steve,

Very interesting. There's nickel, iron, and cobalt in the Kovar. There's maybe gold and maybe silver (chip attachment). That's about it for metals. Cobalt nitrate is red. Nickel is green and iron is from yellow to brown. I sure would think that the nickel and iron would mask the cobalt and the solution would just be dark looking. I can't imagine using platinum group on these cheap parts. Some of them don't have any PM's. They even use epoxy for die attach on some of them.

 

[aflacglobal]

Interesting. Sound like my next project.

There's a lot of ways to skin a cat :shock: :shock: :shock:

Why did it have to be a cat. :?: :lol: :lol:

 

[goldsilverpro]

Ralph. I think I like this avatar the best. It doesn't move around as much. I'm looking for a picture of a good pointed alchemist's hat. If you see one, let me know.

 

[Harold_V]

Have you ever tried this, Harold? It sounds easier than most other methods. Recently, I read of a similar pH switch method, for Pt and Pd, on the internet, but I think they used a different reductant.

Aside from trying a re-refine by dissolving the palladium salt in ammonia and precipitating with HCL, no, I never tried anything aside from ammonium chloride and sodium chlorate. While I accumulated about 75 ounces of palladium, it was over a long period of time. with the great majority of it coming from dental alloys. The only time I actually got any in volume was when, like you, I got my hands on a lot of those contacts from telephone stepping switches. I ran them with nitric, not being concerned about dissolving a small amount of the palladium because I knew I'd recover it in the future (which I did).

I found that mono hydrazine sulfate dropped the gold without having to tie up the excess nitric. I was told by the manufacturer of the chemical that it was also used for Pt and Pd. I've also heard the same thing from other sources but I haven't really tried to search it out yet.

Have any of you heard of this method? What about you, Harold or Hyderconsulting?

It's not anything I've heard about, but one thing is certain. If you goal is to precipitate a specific metal, it doesn't sound promising if you handle alloys. Dental alloys, for example, and often jewelry alloys come mixed. If, on the other hand, all you're trying to do is separate the base metals from all high value metals, it would work like a champ, or so it seems.

There's a lot of ways to skin a cat when refining Pt group metals.

While I'm inclined to agree, just as is usually the case, there is usually one method that stands out above all others. The home type refiner may not have the ability to use a specific process for various reasons, so it does no harm to know and understand how the majority of them work, so an informed decision can be made.

When I acquired the loose-leaf that covered the symposium on refining (March 10-13, 1981, in California), I received two books. One of them (I don't recall which one) details a process for precipitating the base metals, leaving the Pt group metals in solution. That would appear to me to be one of the best possible processes in that once the base metals are removed, you'd expect a much cleaner salt. The salts from the Pt group metals are difficult to wash without dissolving. I never attempted the process because I was too busy keeping up, and the Pt group metals, to me, were more of a toy with which I'd play when necessary.

There's probably not over 10 or 20 good Pt group refiners in the country. Platinum group is easy to recover, difficult to separate, and a bitch to purify. A person that mastered this could make a bunch of money.

That group of metals has earned its reputation for being difficult to separate. My experience dictates that you almost always get a trace of one in the other.

Selling the Pt group metals can be interesting. I found those with which I did business to be very dishonest. Said another way, I got screwed. They're not content to make their percentage, they steal at least ten percent more. Depends on the refiner. I had one VERY good experience with Pease & Curren. I sold platinum to them years ago----the check came within $6 of my calculation. Years later I didn't enjoy the same luck with them and feel I was cheated. They, too, just have felt some remorse, because I received a second payment to offset the shortcoming I received with the first payment. The loss was reduced, but not eliminated.

Harold

 

[goldsilverpro]

Harold,

You know as well as I do that it's expensive to refine Pt group metals, especially for a big company. I think many quote too low charges in order to compete with everybody else that's quoting too low charges. They would have to steal just to break even. Also, they know that most people don't really know what they have, because the stuff is so damned hard to assay. They count your money for you. Also, they might pay you good the first time just to get your business and because you may have split the lot to two different refiners.

 

[lazersteve]

Steve,

Very interesting. There's nickel, iron, and cobalt in the Kovar. There's maybe gold and maybe silver (chip attachment). That's about it for metals. Cobalt nitrate is red. Nickel is green and iron is from yellow to brown. I sure would think that the nickel and iron would mask the cobalt and the solution would just be dark looking. I can't imagine using platinum group on these cheap parts. Some of them don't have any PM's. They even use epoxy for die attach on some of them.

Sorry for the confusion, I guess your term cerdips is for cermaic disc caps. I'm referring to the super small chip capacitors known as monolithics. I'm pretty sure they don't have any cobalt or kovar in them. According to the manufacturers datasheet they are ceramic layers with sputtered gold, silver, nickel, palladium, and platinum depending on which type you get your hands on.

My question is about the monolithics not the ceramic disc types.

Steve

 

[goldsilverpro]

Here's the "cerdips" I was talking about - fourth item down. Doesn't the "dip" in cerdip mean dual inline package?

 

[lazersteve]

GSP,

I've never heard the term 'cerdips' until you used it in a previous post. In that post we were discussing monolithic capacitors like these:

I assumed that's how you were referring to them then, so I reused your term 'cerdips' to indicate the monolithics. Obviously we are not talking about the same critters. My question is concerning those pictured above.

Doesn't the "dip" in cerdip mean dual inline package?

Yes DIP refers to Dual in line package, typically when more than one unit is in an array configuration or plastic/ceramic ic pak like these items:

and Array configurations like this:

If it is a single component and only has a single contact on each end then it is referred to as the 'axial' configuration.


Steve

 

[goldsilverpro]

I forgot to add the link. Fourth item down. These are what I've always called cerdips.

http://www.chelseatech.com/packages.htm

I'm always confused with your nomenclature. I'm sure you're correct. I just learned things from the package type rather than what was in the package.

I probably have more knowledge about sidebraze packages than any other type - the bottom item on the same above link. I owned a couple of companies, based on an invention of mine, that reconditioned rejected sidebraze packages for companies like Intel, AMD, AMS, etc. We removed the lid and chip, selectively stripped all the gold plate and gold braze, and then replated them. We literally processed millions of them. These companies then treated them as new packages. Their statistical yields were actually higher on the reconditioned packages than on new ones.

 

[lazersteve]

GSP,

Those packages are typically designed to house ic dies like in the picture you posted. I've never seen capacitiors in them, but that doesn't mean they weren't made that way at one point or another. You're right I'm used to identifying the component by the parts that are in the package, but packaging usually indicates what's inside to a degree.

Now that we are on the same page, do you think the acid peroxide method will display the same orange color you mentioned? I have a lot of this colored liquid from dissolving monolithics. I'm curious if the orange color indicates palladium in this situation also?

Thanks,

Steve

 

[goldsilverpro]

I understand the question now. This is very interesting. Palladium does form a chloride, which is red. To dissolve any metal, you need 2 things - an oxidizing agent and an anion that will combine with the metal to form a compound or a complex. With the acid peroxide method, you have both things needed to dissolve palladium. I know of nothing else in the monolithic capacitors that would produce this color. I might mention that it takes very little dissolved Pd to produce this color. Test your solutions with stannous chloride. You're looking for yellow-brown.

 

[Harold_V]

The most sensitive test for palladium is dimethylglyoxime. The slightest trace produces a canary yellow precipitate that's difficult to miss. It can be used to precipitate palladium from solution to recover palladium, but the volume of salt created is so large that it becomes troublesome as a recovery procedure. I'm suggesting this because there are times when you have a mixed solution and it becomes difficult to distinguish palladium from gold, particularly if both are present. Palladium does have a different reaction than gold, although it can be similar. Gold will leave a purple stain, but if they are both present, you may not know that you have palladium included. That was common when processing dental alloys.

Thanks to Hoke, I kept a dropping bottle of DMG at the ready at all times. It was useful not only for testing for palladium, but it's also an excellent indicator of the presence of nickel in solution. A drop of ammonium hydroxide in a blue solution, followed by a drop of DMG will turn the solution pink if nickel is present.

Harold

 

[lazersteve]

GSP,

Here's the test results on the liquid...

Looks like gold mixed with palladium maybe, what do you think?

Steve

 

[austexjwlry]

There are freestanding plastic dipped caps. on T.V.& monitor etc. type boards I googled them to come up with pictures and specs.Some appear to have to have 3 legs with 3 humps in their almost flat rectangular bodies. I clip them at the same time as silver caps.I believe you might consider them the analog version of the ones your talking about.
I made a post in the general chat room about palladium caps and silver dipped caps where it does'nt belong. How would I undo my mistake?
Thank you all for your patience with a newbie.

Wayne

 

[lazersteve]

Wayne,

I moved it for you.

I think the caps you are taking about are called polystyrene and polyester film capacitors. They are usually dark green colored with two legs. Here's a photo of the polyesters:

[img::]http://www.goldrecovery.us/images/polyester.jpg[/img]

Here's a picture of an older dipped silver mica:

[img::]http://www.goldrecovery.us/images/mica.jpg[/img]

Steve

 

[goldsilverpro]

Looks like Pd and Au to me, Steve.

 

[austexjwlry]

I found lots of specs. at www.globalspec.com. Go to their homepage, then go into site map at bottom of page. Then search for pallidium flat cable etc. Very interesting info.,hope I'm not duplicating info. you already have.
There are also audio cables etc. with palladium , rhodium alloys.
Found stamp desiginations to help identify wires & cables at this site also.

Wayne

 

[jimdoc]

Has anybody had any luck getting palladium from these
type of capacitors? I would think they would have more
metal in them than the smaller monolithic type. Jim