Palladium

[jimdoc]

Here is a picture of the palladium wire I have gotten out
of Hammond organs. The glass vial has 21.1 dwt, that is
the easiest to get off the bussbars, it is all pushed down
into the vial.
And the plastic coin tube has the little pieces of wire that
are on the copper contacts that I used acid to get rid of
the copper, I forget the weight of that clump of contacts.

Would mapp gas without oxygen be enough to melt this
into a button? I was going to try it with the clump of contacts,
but if I would be wasting gas I would rather not do so.
Thanks. Jim

 

[jimdoc]

Here are five eproms from a newer organ that I got
with an older one, so even newer non-tube ones may
have interesting stuff in them as well on the boards.
I will probably just save these because there isn't
that much gold in them. They are AMI chips probably
not worth anything now, but people seem to collect
chips big time, I have seen some on Ebay were they
are asking $999 and $1299 for one chip.
Jim

 

[Harold_V]

Would mapp gas without oxygen be enough to melt this
into a button? I was going to try it with the clump of contacts,
but if I would be wasting gas I would rather not do so.
Thanks. Jim

In my opinion, you won't even come close unless you use oxygen. Palladium melts at roughly 2,830° F, so it's not fun or easy to melt. Using an oxy/natural gas Hoke torch, you can comfortably melt a button that runs better than an ounce in size, but much more tends to become somewhat troublesome.

If you melt palladium, be certain to wear proper eye protection against the intense light.

Harold

 

[jimdoc]

Harold,
Thanks for the answers. I figured it would
be tough if possible, but I will wait untill I
get set up to do it properly. I need to get
the proper goggles also, so I will have to wait.
I have the Hoke torch, just need to set it up.

Also I have a Hoke torch that says it is for
oxygen and artificial gas, would that be for
mapp gas and oxygen? If so would that be
hotter than the natural gas and oxygen?
Thanks Jim

 

[Harold_V]

I have a Hoke torch that says it is for oxygen and artificial gas, would that be for mapp gas and oxygen? If so would that be
hotter than the natural gas and oxygen?
Thanks Jim

I don't know that I could answer that, not having a clue what is considered artificial gas----but adding oxygen to any of the fuels really improves their performance. I'm of the opinion that it will work well, but it's just a gut feeling. It took some getting used to using natural gas instead of acetylene, which tends to be the hottest fuel-----but once you get used to it, it's actually quite nice. Much cleaner.

I melted enough platinum sponge to yield a button that weighed over a troy ounce. I used the Hoke torch (a large rosebud type, not the small Hoke torch jewelers use) with natural gas, as I already mentioned, and found that the torch was just barely able to melt the button. The problem you have is that heat dissipates faster than you can add it, so it's hard to keep the entire button in a liquid state. Hard, but not impossible. I would imagine that a button of 2 ounces would border on impossible. Of course, platinum melts at roughly 400° higher temperature than does palladium, which makes a difference. Do keep in mind that an ounce of palladium is about twice the size of an ounce of platinum.

Harold

 

[jimdoc]

Harold,
Thanks. I want to try and stay away from acetylene because
of the soot and impurities. On the Ganoskin site they show
melting platinum with a hydrogen torch. I would like to just
get a furnace to deal with the pgm's and maybe do assays.

I don't know why they use the term artificial gas and not
explain what that is, I was thinking it must be mapp, but I
am not sure. I guess I need to check at my local gas distributer
or do a google search. I will probably try out the natural gas
and oxygen, as that should be the cheapest way to go.
Every time I get some cash I think I can spend on some
supplies, it dissappears somewhere else. Jim

 

[Harold_V]

Harold,
Thanks. I want to try and stay away from acetylene because
of the soot and impurities. On the Ganoskin site they show
melting platinum with a hydrogen torch.

A hydrogen torch is recommended for melting the platinum group because it's known to form carbides from a smoky torch. You can buy a hydrogen torch from jewelry supply houses, but it's very small, not nearly large enough for a guy that refines. I have no clue where you might obtain one otherwise.

I would like to just get a furnace to deal with the pgm's and maybe do assays.

That's noble as anything I've ever heard, but I don't think you understand what you just said.

Do you have any idea of the limitations of the typical furnace? The typical crucible furnace is borderline capable of melting gray iron, which melts well below the melting point of palladium. Many of them can't achieve a temperature high enough to melt iron, so you have no chance of melting the platinum group. Besides, it's the wrong direction for you to be thinking. You'll never have enough platinum at one time for it to be of concern, and if you happen to, you'll be able to afford what you really need for melting, which is an induction furnace.

You have lots of problems when melting platinum. It melts at about the same temperature as silicon----so even fused quartz dishes are marginal and tend to liquefy when you melt platinum in them. I used to use HFL to pickle my platinum buttons, working in a fume hood, in a platinum crucible. You have to remove the button instantly from the dish, otherwise it gets encapsulated in melted dish.

There are small induction furnaces on the market---but you can expect to spend upwards of $6,000 for one, which will likely limit you to melting about an ounce at a time. Larger furnace----more bucks. They are unlimited in making heat, and would self destruct were it not for the water cooling they must use when in operation. You can easily melt platinum with one, which is trying with a torch. You will have no success with a fuel fired furnace.

I will probably try out the natural gas
and oxygen, as that should be the cheapest way to go.

I really liked the lack of smoke (think acetylene) and convenience of not having to change bottles. My lab was on the second level of the castle, but my oxygen and SO2 were on the main level, piped upstairs. I used the largest size of oxygen bottle available without going to LOX, so I'd usually run for about ten days per bottle. My torch got used daily, with rare exception.

Buy a spare tip, which you'll use only for melting pure gold. You can keep it clean, so it won't contaminate the gold when you melt it. The tip, when you inquart, gets really funky.

Every time I get some cash I think I can spend on some
supplies, it dissappears somewhere else. Jim

That gets better as time goes on, Jim. At first you need everything. My refining venture grew over a period of years, so it was relatively painless. It grew on its own------I just tried to keep up with it.

I'm working on a response to another of your posts. It may not get finished tonight. Lots of things to say-----hopefully that are helpful.

Yeah, I talk a lot!

Harold

 

[jimdoc]

Harold,
Yeah, sometimes I forget what things cost.
There was a furnace at the SAS auction that
I go to that went up to 3500F that I bid on.
The problem is they don't tell you what stuff
goes for, it is silent bid and they contact you
if you win. I guess from what you said it was
probably an induction furnace and probably
went for a few thousand dollars. There are
commercial equipment dealers that probably
buy that stuff up, knowing that they have
buyers. I probably would have no chance of
getting something like that for a few hundred,
but I keep hoping.They are always auctioning
off stuff from big drug companies and have lab
stuff alot of times. Even if I was to find a furnace
cheap over there capable of melting PGM's I
would hope it worked right. You are right I need
to stick with the torch, especially starting out and
being poor, and not going to have enough PGM's
to melt anyway, unless I get the catalytic converter
setup together.
Thanks. Jim

 

[jimdoc]

Just got a Hammond CV today, a large console
model like a C-3. I got 5.4 dwt palladium wire
off the buss bars. This one had four bussbars
and contacts along the bottom of the organ, and
two rows of nine bussbars for the keys, they
are longer because of 61 keys on each set of
keys, as compared to 44 on the more common
M-3's. This organ was over a quarter ounce of
palladium,not counting the smaller contacts that
need to be processed somehow. Also the silver on
the drawbars is probably close to an ounce on this
model, as it is twice as wide as on an M-3, and they
have 1/2 ounce of silver.
This is the best one I have done so far, it was made
between 1945-49, and was really beat up, or it would
have been worth a few hundred if it was nice.
That makes 26.5+ dwt of palladium from 12 organs,
and the first one I did was last Ocober. I am going for
2 ounces before next October, if the organs keep coming
my way from freecycle,craigslist,etc....
Jim

 

[Palladium]

8)

 

[pinman]

i took apart an m103 and was wondering if the wire in my picture is palladium? it didnt have the insulation that is shown in jimdocs picture on page 1, but it did seem like there was some sort of "painted on" insulation.

 

[jimdoc]

There is a very small bit of palladium wire spot welded on the tips of those copper contacts in your picture. The bussbar that these contacts make contact with will have a palladium wire spot welded accross the whole length of the bussbar. It is about the same thickness or a little thicker than the contact wire. The other wire in the organ will just be copper as far as I know. There will be more palladium contacts in the foot pedals also, but the most is on the bussbars. I think you should come up with 2 dwt of palladium or so from a M-103.
Jim

 

[pinman]

thanks jim. started stripping it off of the bus bars with a small swiss army its quite the pain. it is nice when it comes off in one or two long pieces though.

 

[jimdoc]

The trick is to not use too much pressure to get the spot weld to pop off. I have had a whole bussbar come off in one piece. And then I have had some that break off at every weld. You get the hang of it after you do a bunch. I have been using a good pair of tweezers to get the wire off, and I have a magnified light to help me see it better to get a grip on the wire.
Jim

 

[pinman]

nice, it almost always seems to pop off at the 90 next to the solder. after 9 bus bars i have 1.7 grams. ill post what i get off the rest later.

 

[pinman]

i soaked some of the copper bits in ap to try to remove the wire contacts. i left it for a week or so and everything is dissolved. does palladium disolve in ap?

 

[Harold_V]

i soaked some of the copper bits in ap to try to remove the wire contacts. i left it for a week or so and everything is dissolved. does palladium disolve in ap?

A simple test with either DMG or stannous chloride will answer your question.

Harold

 

[Platdigger]

I know platinum will go into AP. I have done it.
I would think pd would go in even easier.

 

[Palladium]

:arrow: http://www.goldrefiningforum.com/phpBB3/viewtopic.php?f=37&t=2974&start=20

peroxide +hcl dissolves gold, pt and pd ---i do it almost daily

I agree. Pd will dissolve in H2S04, HCl and Nitric. If there's enough Pd, it will generate Cl on its own by stripping the Hydrogen from HCl and that will dissolve almost anything in time.


Every source of material is different and each case has to be examined on an individual basis. Working with ores is totally different than working with the metals in refined form.

:arrow: Palladium has a great affinity for hydrogen, being able to absorb 900 times its own volume of the gas.

 

[butcher]

Palladium,thanks for puting two and two together for me, I read that in the wikipedia for Pd, but it actual did not chemically register in my brain. :idea: