poor mans aqua regia

[Irons]

In the first flask with the lever you place your
.22 oz of low carat Gold
Sodium Nitrate
water
HCL

In the other flask you place Sodium Carbonate and Hydrogen peroxide

I would like to know if this is correct
If it is than I would like to how much quantity of Sodium Nitrate,
water, HCLis needed

I started out with about 25 ml of HCL and a half level teaspoon of NaNO3.
You can always add more later.

I didn't add any water is the only difference. The rest is ok.

It's not required to use fancy glassware. You can adapt the idea to your own needs.

The glass frits are quite expensive to buy new but some HDPE tubing with a lot of tiny holes will do the same thing quite inexpensively. The key is to make the bubbles tiny so that they will react quickly and not reach the surface of the scrubber solution.

 

[PreciousMexpert]

HDPE tubing with a lot of tiny holes will do the same thing quite inexpensively. The key is to make the bubbles tiny so that they will react quickly and not reach the surface of the scrubber solution.

Hi Irons
What you have in your picture is silicone tubing

tiny holes and bubbles tiny is something I dont understand
Would a plastic tube be OK
Thanks

 

[PreciousMexpert]

Hi Irons
In Your picture the experiment looks like 2flasks attacked by a tube.
Is there anyplace where air is coming out or is it completely closed.
If I do this and I make it so that there is no air being realsed from any part of the setup
Will there be any kind of danger
Thanks

 

[jimdoc]

You have to let air out somewhere or it will let itself out. The idea is to neutralize the hazardous fumes before they are released.
Jim

 

[Irons]

HDPE tubing with a lot of tiny holes will do the same thing quite inexpensively. The key is to make the bubbles tiny so that they will react quickly and not reach the surface of the scrubber solution.

Hi Irons
What you have in your picture is silicone tubing

tiny holes and bubbles tiny is something I dont understand
Would a plastic tube be OK
Thanks

Use HDPE tubing inside the scrubber to disperse the fumes into tiny bubbles. The Silicone tubing just lets the fumes get from the reactor to the scrubber. You need a lot of holes in the HDPE tubing to limit back-pressure.
The fumes go down the center tube in the scrubber where they are dispersed by the frit into the Sodium Carbonate/Hydrogen Peroxide solution. The vent is on the top right of the scrubber.

If you're not familiar with the Chemistry and chemical apparatus, I suggest sticking with the procedures outlined by Harold and others. This is more for the advanced student of the craft.

 

[PreciousMexpert]

http://images.google.com/imgres?imgurl=http://biorealis.com/digester/images/3_hoopintank.jpg&imgrefurl=http://biorealis.com/digester/construction.html&usg=__y11kgGnDitVi33MtxrE9C2TrHVQ=&h=327&w=400&sz=11&hl=en&start=15&tbnid=0ScTnyH7cE6SDM:&tbnh=101&tbnw=124&prev=/images%3Fq%3Dinside%2Bof%2BHDPE%2Btubing%26gbv%3D2%26hl%3Den%26sa%3DG

Hi Irons
Is this the idea

 

[Irons]

http://images.google.com/imgres?imgurl=http://biorealis.com/digester/images/3_hoopintank.jpg&imgrefurl=http://biorealis.com/digester/construction.html&usg=__y11kgGnDitVi33MtxrE9C2TrHVQ=&h=327&w=400&sz=11&hl=en&start=15&tbnid=0ScTnyH7cE6SDM:&tbnh=101&tbnw=124&prev=/images%3Fq%3Dinside%2Bof%2BHDPE%2Btubing%26gbv%3D2%26hl%3Den%26sa%3DG

Hi Irons
Is this the idea

That could be modified to do the trick. I would use more tubing and make several turns around the bottom and make the holes a lot smaller. Smaller than a straight pin. The best I've found are the lancets that diabetics use to prick their finger. Heat the tip with a match then push it through the side of the tubing and leave it until it's cool. Insert one after another, shoulder to shoulder and repeat until you just say bugger it.

 

[PreciousMexpert]

Hi Irons
Thanks for your good ideas
I made a drawing it looks awful but I think it gives a better idea of what I have in my mind.
http://img52.imageshack.us/img52/7043/61294310.jpg
1) The reactor
I thought about using a coffee pot and fixing the cover so that it has a valve.


2) The scrubber
I said maybe I can use a
7x7x7 inch plastic container so that it looks like that.


3) In the scrubber I will have a tube with tiny holes made with lancets that diabetics use
I guess I will have to make lots of the


4) In the scrubber I think you said you places Marbles

The output of the scrubber to the bottom of a container filled with crushed Marble (Calcium Carbonate).
I use WallyWorld play sand which is a Marble grit. It only costs a few dollars a 50lb bag.

Should I do the same.


5) How much of these chemicals should I use for refining .22 oz of 10K Gold
Sodium Nitrate
HCL
Sodium Carbonate
Hydrogen peroxide


6) Once the reaction is complete than I have
Nitric acid
in the Scrubber.
What will be the strength of this nitric acid

Thanks again for your help

 

[butcher]

I am not sure what you mean by a valve?
a check valve (one way valve) may be ok letting gas leave your reaction vessel.
but you do not want to accumulate a pressure in your reaction (boiling) vessel by having a valve that if shut would build pressure, unless this pressure would relieve before glass burst, even if pressure built up in reaction vessel and it pops its cork your solution may foam over, I would just keep your reaction vessel hotter thus more pressure than your reciever,(temperature and pressure has a direct relationship), and remove the tube to your reciever (scrubber), before lowering temperature or pressure on the reaction flask (boiler), so as not to suck siphion back cooler solution into your reaction flask, do away with valve, another method is to have a empty flask in between the two ( reaction flask and reciever flask) this center empty flask both tubes just into the top and only gas passes through it, and if the pressure in your reaction flask goes into a vacuum because of lower pressure (temperature) then the cooler liquid from your reciver will just fill this center flask (gas flask) and not go back into your reaction flask holding your gold and possibly thermally shocking and busting the glass.

 

[Irons]

I am not sure what you mean by a valve?
a check valve (one way valve) may be ok letting gas leave your reaction vessel.
but you do not want to accumulate a pressure in your reaction (boiling) vessel by having a valve that if shut would build pressure, unless this pressure would relieve before glass burst, even if pressure built up in reaction vessel and it pops its cork your solution may foam over, I would just keep your reaction vessel hotter thus more pressure than your reciever,(temperature and pressure has a direct relationship), and remove the tube to your reciever (scrubber), before lowering temperature or pressure on the reaction flask (boiler), so as not to suck siphion back cooler solution into your reaction flask, do away with valve, another method is to have a empty flask in between the two ( reaction flask and reciever flask) this center empty flask both tubes just into the top and only gas passes through it, and if the pressure in your reaction flask goes into a vacuum because of lower pressure (temperature) then the cooler liquid from your reciver will just fill this center flask (gas flask) and not go back into your reaction flask holding your gold and possibly thermally shocking and busting the glass.

Good point.

I used the valve in case I needed to disconnect the hose for some reason and this allowed me to temporarily stop the NOX from escaping and then it is opened again once the hose is reconnected. When the reaction is complete, the valve can be closed to keep any scrubber solution from backing up into the reactor.

 

[butcher]

I noticed your valve Irons and had no concern with it as I knew you know how to use it safely, but others may not understand the dangers involved when distilling with glass, most us hillbillys dont use glass. :lol:

And I have to say how much I love your approach to chemistry it is so practical, and easy to understand. It has been a great resource for many of us, Thanks.

 

[golddie]

If you look in the part that says scrubber,you have a tube that has many very smal holes made with a needle
In that container you fill sand or marbles
Irons said fill it with sand in that case wont the holes get blocked


http://img52.imageshack.us/img52/7043/61294310.jpg

 

[Irons]

If you look in the part that says scrubber,you have a tube that has many very smal holes made with a needle
In that container you fill sand or marbles
Irons said fill it with sand in that case wont the holes get blocked


http://img52.imageshack.us/img52/7043/61294310.jpg

The scrubber contains Sodium Carbonate and Hydrogen Peroxide. The vent from the scrubber goes to another container containing Calcium Carbonate (Marble chips) to absorb any fumes that might escape the scrubber. Using chips or coarsely ground Marble prevents clogging and the resulting back pressure. The Walmart play sand works well and is quite inexpensive.

 

[golddie]

Hi Irons
I didnt know that you needed a third container
Then what happens to the chemical in that container.
Do I follow the steps in dealing with waste by 4metals

or do I treat it in a different way
or can I use this as dilute AR
Thanks

 

[Irons]

Hi Irons
I didnt know that you needed a third container
Then what happens to the chemical in that container.
Do I follow the steps in dealing with waste by 4metals

or do I treat it in a different way
or can I use this as dilute AR
Thanks

You don't 'need' the third container as long as the reaction is going well, otherwise it will save you from dealing with a shopfull of NO2.

 

[golddie]

Hi Irons
Sorry for being a pest
I am confused
Do I place the

The Walmart play sand

inside the container that says scrubber

where does this go
Calcium Carbonate

 

[Barren Realms 007]

Here is the post that Iron's explains how the Sodium Carbonate is used in the recieving flask.

Add the Sodium Nitrate in increments, not all at once.

If you get Sodium Nitrate prills, it's better to dissolve them in a little hot water first. They have a polymer anti-caking coating that makes them dissolve very slowly.

The other day, I dissolved .22 oz of low carat Gold in poor man's AR a couple of 24/40 erlenmyer flasks connected with silicone tubing. One was the digestor, the other had a frit bubbler in a solution of Sodium Carbonate and Hydrogen Peroxide as a NOx scrubber. It converted the NOx to Sodium Nitrate. Most of the NOx reacted at the frit. The few bubbles that reached the surface reacted with the Oxygen given off by the Hydrogen Peroxide, turning Red than disappearing as the NOx was converted to Nitric Acid and absorbed by the solution.

There were almost no fumes emitted.

If you will go back on this thread (2nd page 5th post) you will see the picture Iron's posted with 2 flasks not 3. The recieving flask has a vent opening in the neck to let the incoming gasses escape after going thru the bubbler.

Hi Irons
I didnt know that you needed a third container

The answer to this is no. This is used in a 3rd container if it is necessary.

I am confused
Do I place the

Quote:
The Walmart play sand

inside the container that says scrubber

Quote by Irons
You don't 'need' the third container as long as the reaction is going well, otherwise it will save you from dealing with a shopfull of NO2.

Start at the beginning and read this thead again.

 

[prospector pete]

as far as im aware , its the same as normal aqua regia except you use bleach instead of nitric.
i make my mix , 2/3 hcl and 1/3 household bleach .

 

[nickvc]

as far as im aware , its the same as normal aqua regia except you use bleach instead of nitric.
i make my mix , 2/3 hcl and 1/3 household bleach .

No that’s not poor mans AR, to make poormans you use Hcl and a nitrate instead of nitric.

 

[FrugalRefiner]

as far as im aware , its the same as normal aqua regia except you use bleach instead of nitric.

Poor man's AR uses sodium nitrate or potassium nitrate in place of nitric acid. For most people, nitric acid has become very expensive, so using the sodium or potassium nitrate is a less costly alternative.

i make my mix , 2/3 hcl and 1/3 household bleach .

It is best to add you bleach (or other oxidizer) in small increments. The bleach reacts with the acid to release chlorine which oxidizes the gold. If too much is added at one time, much of the chlorine is simply lost as gas to the atmosphere instead of dissolving gold.

Dave