Poor Man's AR for Ceramic CPUs

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james122964 said:
Most black sands are already oxidized and mostly the sulfites have already naturally been converted to oxides now I am just talking about the black sands that are loose in creeks and earth near the surface, if they are deep or locked up in rocks were moisture and air can not get to them the will not be oxidized already.

I grind my black sands to a super fine dust. I then dampen them with water, note I said damp, like barely wet clumpy. I put them in a 5 gallon bucket that I have a lid for, I add in 1/4 cup HCL (in a container) placed so it will not spill (until I tip the bucket), next to this I place some (evaporated down to concentrate) chlorox 1/3 cup also in a cup so it will not spill.

I only fill the bucket 1/4-1/3 with the black sand concentrate.

I have a lid that I drill a 1/2 hole in to put on to seal the bucket when all of this is ready, I get a cotton ball or q-tip and dip it in ammonia, then I tip the bucket to spill the HCL and chlorox together the set level, this will release large amount of chlorine which I test for by putting the ammonia swab near the hole it it shows white fumes, I know that the bucket is full of chlorine gas. I put a cork in the hole (not to tightly, as this is also a make shift pressure relief valve).
I then roll bucket around tipped to a 45 degree angle to mix the chlorine gas and the left over HCL with the ground up material. I mix it several times for the next day or two.
when done remove the lid to vent left over chlorine. Then add enough water to cover the material and allow it to become liquid in consistancy, stir for about 5 minutes. Let this set for a few ours then pour off the water, it will contain any gold that reacted with the chlorine. reuse the rinse water to concentrate more gold into it.
I am terrible at explaining, but if you look up Plattners chlorination process you will get much better details.

Jim
sounds like you got it all figured out.
 
dtectr & james

Okay, I think the proverbial "light bulb" just went off in my head.

If the iron in my placer is in the form of oxides (magnetite, Fe3O4 and hematite, Fe2O3) and the pyrites are converted to oxides by roasting the ore, are you saying none of these oxides will be leached by the "Poor Man's AR process" or the "Hydrochloric Acid/ Clorox process"?? Just on the off chance there are unoxidized base metals in trace amounts in the placer, would it still be good to remove these with the Acid/ Peroxide process?

If there is up to 10% silver alloyed with my placer gold (this is from reliable sources here) will it interfere with the leaching and precipitation of the gold flakes? Is there anything to do that will "get around" the silver?

Bob
 
Un-oxidized iron (elemental iron) in a roasting process (or smelt), of pyrites can be very beneficial at removing the sulfide that traps your values, the elemental iron has all its electrons, and readily chemically gathers the sulfides from the ore, on the other hand, the oxide of iron, or Ironsulfides, will not help in this conversion.

When smelting ore the chemical make up of ore is important to know if possible, and how flux and additives react chemically.

When I roast or incinerate ore, ore a recovered salt from one of my leaching or recovery processes, I actually go through a fusing phase,

say I have a damp salt or an ore, putting it on low heat till it dries out keeping heat low and a cover over it, it can create gasses that bubble up and pop splashing my values all over the place, during this drying process a chemical reaction can be occurring, more volatile gasses and may vapor off converting some of the salts in solution, once it dries, it will get hard and can form like a rock, I usually break it apart and crush it before completely dry,

now I can raise my heat without the gasses splattering my values all over the place, although I will still have metal salts with gasses that will evolve, now under this higher heat, and uncovering to expose to air I will still drive off gasses some of the less volatile ones, these gasses are from the acids that formed my rock salts, or metal salts, as these gasses leave the metal salt the metals become oxidized by the oxygen in the air,

Also any carbonous materials will break down and start to give off carbon dioxide gas, the ore, or recovered salts are still making chemical changes, and the oxides usually darken or go towards a blackish color, depending on their makeup they can take on several colors during these processes.

then these fusing salts (remember METAL + ACID = a salt of that metal), they will seem to start to melt again, the more volatile gasses escaping and forming acids or bases in this fusing stage (looks like melting to me but is not), here again allot of chemistry is going on, it can get liquid again and start bubbling and splattering so a cover may again be needed.

with ore or even recovered salts, making additions of chemicals (like flux or metals), can help you change your ore or recovered salt chemically, at this fusing stage and even before the smelting stage of recovery, or the leaching stage of your recovery process, example I may be wanting to leach this ore with a chlorine leach (and know it is low on silver content) so I may cover this ore with table salt bring up heat and stir and keep heat for awhile, this can convert some of my fusing metals into chlorides, helping me save chemicals in my later leaching stage and also help to convert some of the harder to convert metals, heat can be a big part of the chemistry equation.

a note here during this fusing stage I can also be volatilizing some of my metals, and they can be vaporizing off with these acidic gasses, if I see a yellow gas or a yellow acid like syrup on the cooler portion of my fusing dish, I may be vaporizing off my gold, here I would lower my heat, also many of these acids and metal vapors coming are very deadly to breath, and we do not want to change the chemistry of our lungs and end up on a respirator in the hospital, or buried 6 foot under in a pine box, cannot get much use out of gold that way.

Now my fusing salts will give off most of their gasses, and these salts will start to dry out again, still chemically changing, and more metals exposed to air have a chance to oxidize.

roasting or incineration or fusing can convert our product chemically, and by adding and controlling conditions we can get metal values that would otherwise be lost or not recovered in our later recovery and refining processes, Why else would one of the master refiners on this forum spend his time preaching this to us?

I am not saying James is wrong about the black sand being oxidized already, and the sulfides converted by exposed back sand, but I would always roast any ore or black sands. Sulfides can lock up metals chemically, and these crystals can be very hard to convert or oxidize even if exposed to the elements in the environment for millions of years, I believe the sulfides can still be locked up in their crystal structure.

fluxing and these pre processing (with heat) measure are almost a chemistry in themselves, as a hobbyist just learning I do not completely understand them, and may or may not be correct in how I see what little I do in this, but for the mining communities around the world for since man has made things from rocks they have also tried to learn it, and have known that it can mean the success or failure of getting metal out of that rock, it does not matter how much gold is in that rock if you cannot get it out cost effectively it will still only be worth rock.

and even today most any professional miner will tell someone who asks what flux do I use he will tell him to experiment their is no magic formula, I think learning as much as we can about the type of ore we have, and how metals and flux react chemically in these heated stages, can help us make better judgments on how we experiment. But pre-roasting, incineration or fusing is almost always practices in professional mining.

looking into assaying can also help us learn from the proceedures they use, and improve our ore or metal recovered salt by pre-treating them before leaching or smelting processes.

Maybe someone else with more experience will comment and give us more clues on which flux and what chemical effects they create in these melts, who knows maybe someone has the secret to a magic flux recipe hidden in their back pocket?

James, I find your process of generating a chloride leach in a five gallon bucket an ingenious process, and would like to try it, but I still believe if you pretreated the black sand with a roasting or fusing process you may recover more value's, but then again I can be wrong it would not be a first for me, as most of the time I get things wrong before I learn, and even then I have alot more to learn.

Traveller, iron being higher in series will still have to be leached from your ore before gold will go into solution, and can also cause problems with your leaching of the gold, untill it is removed from the leach, it is always best to eliminate the base metals as much as possible before extracting the gold, whether in leaching or refining.

silver can always create problems in chloride base leaches, also keeping your gold locked up out of your reach, whether 10% will give you grief here I cannot say, in mining sometime's they preleach to remove silver before they attempt to get the gold, or they would get neither.
 
james I find your process of generating a chloride leach in a five gallon bucket an ingenious process, and would like to try it, but I still believe if you pretreated the black sand with a roasting or fusing process you may recover more value's, but then again I can be wrong it would not be a first for me, as most of the time I get things wrong before I learn, and even then I have alot more to learn

I have done some black sands from glacier deposits, they do not contain sulfides, if there is sulfides plattner recommends a salt roast to convert the sulfides to sodium sulfate, and the base metals to chlorides, which can all be rinse away before you go after the gold. This plattner guy had it all figured out, and it is a good read. The book is free on google books.
I have been using this process for the cheap IC chips, and it works well without roasting, and such, with a couple of mechanical process differences to get most of the base metals out before the start.

Jim
 
This thread has gone a little off topic and title...but still great nontheless...

I have several gallons (10 +/-) of sand and black sand concentrates from the Llano river of Texas. This is one of the few areas that you can pan gold in Texas...The problem is most of it is microscopic. I have to take the black sand and put it under my microscope and suck up the gold with an eye dropper. I also believe that there are probably values locked away in the black sand particles themselves....There is more experimentation to do. I have known about some these processes but never taken my hands out of my pockets enough to try some of them..untill now

I have also come to believe that the use of SMB to drop gold can leave a significant amount in solution if you are not careful. I have a large container of what should have been bare formerly gold chloride solution...after sitting on the bench for the last month a fair amount of gold has gradually appeared on the bottom. Obviously some chemistry was still going on.

I do plan on trying some of these procedures on my Texas black sand.

Texan
 
Hello

I'm still confused here.

Although I realize that many black sands and pyrites may harbour micron sized paricles of gold in a matrix, I am really not interested in this fact at the moment for two reasons:

1) The area I am removing the black sand from is so remote, I can only bring out as much black sand as one horse can carry in a packsaddle. With a specific gravity of 5.3, this is not very much black sand so concentration onsite is the key.

2) There is enough free gold in the placer, microscopic as it is, to make this venture profitable without having to unlock values in black sand and pyrites. The time may come when I can pack a small roller mill in but for now I am only after the free gold.

The question still remains, will oxidized forms of iron (magnetite Fe3O4, hematite Fe2O3 or iron pyrite FeS2 after it is oxidized by roasting) get dissolved in the leaching or electrowinning process?

By leaching I am, of course, referring to the hydrochloric acid/clorox leach process.

I very much appreciate all the other info but, at the moment, I need this question answered before I can proceed.

Regards

Bob
 
black sands can have fine particles of flake gold within them not bound up chemically in the black sand structure, these can be separated, but it is Very difficult even with the best of technology, as fine gold can float away, although we are taught gold is so heavy it will not float (a myth maybe for myth busters?) also the fine flakes get lodged and trapped by the sand and difficult to separate, careful panning, blue bowls, shaker tables and so on work to an extent, magnetically separating sand (with plastic wrap or cup to let magnetic material fall off magnet) is another method but as we all know, pick up a bunch magnetic materials we also trap some non magnetic in clump of sand.

if cannot pack out all the black sand concentrate it by panning and pack out what concentrate you can carry, as you know a man who believes his pack is full of gold can carry more than is humanly possible for long distances, unless your mountains are like mine here in southern oregon, even the deer find it better to travel sideway's to get up the mountain, going in circles around the mountain to get to the top.
lets look at leaching with chlorides of these sands, we will need to roast them to drive off SO2 gasses, and to remove sulfur and sulfides, as gold and values can keep some of the sulfides from driving off even at red hot ore temperatures, roasting in presence of Iron in form of nails or an Iron skillet is wise, in mining sometimes sulfur is added to a roast if the ore is low on sulfur or sulfides, this elemental sulfur burns helping to save fuel in the roasting process and help oxidize metals like iron, also an assay of these sands to determine if they are oxidizing (most likely) or reducing would also help us, we can do this with litharge, and see if how much lead we either oxidize (stay's lead oxide) or reduce (forms lead button of metal, this can help us determine what we may need to add to the roasting and fusing process of pretreatment of our ore before going to a leaching process, getting our ore close to neutral will assist us later, also I would fuse with salt to change as much of our ore to chloride with heat (if low in silver content), as you know any metals in our ore lower in the electromotive series will use up our leaching solution long before they will start to dissolve any values, pretreatment will help us oxidize the base metals and can assist us to chemically pre-treat them so we save on chemicals waste and have more success.
leaching black sand for elemental gold or values without roasting or pretreatment, can get some free gold into solution , but it can also bind up some of that free gold into the matrix while you are using up your chemicals dissolving base metals, and plating back the free gold to that black sand you are trying to leach ( similar in our electronic scrap until we dissolve and remove base metals we lose gold to remaining metals or base metal salts), and here we can have some complicated base metal salts to deal with in ore.

I cannot say black sand are worth packing very far as if I have to crawl up that steep mountain with my dredge I aint gonna carry no sand, I will spend my time down there after the gold, now I will save a small bucket full of black sands from washing the sluice box, to bring home and pan save them and may roast and leach them with some other ore later, but cannot give any yields.
spend that horsepower packing out gold not black sand.

Just oxidizing an iron sulfide will use up our leach and precipitate the gold; we need to eliminate that sulfide from your oxidized Iron, to get anything of value and not waste time trouble and chemicals.

get Ammens book (Action mining, or RAR file download on forum)study it, that will be more helpful than some backyard hobbiest like me.
 
Traveller11 said:
Hello

I'm still confused here.

Although I realize that many black sands and pyrites may harbour micron sized paricles of gold in a matrix, I am really not interested in this fact at the moment for two reasons:

1) The area I am removing the black sand from is so remote, I can only bring out as much black sand as one horse can carry in a packsaddle. With a specific gravity of 5.3, this is not very much black sand so concentration onsite is the key.

2) There is enough free gold in the placer, microscopic as it is, to make this venture profitable without having to unlock values in black sand and pyrites. The time may come when I can pack a small roller mill in but for now I am only after the free gold.

The question still remains, will oxidized forms of iron (magnetite Fe3O4, hematite Fe2O3 or iron pyrite FeS2 after it is oxidized by roasting) get dissolved in the leaching or electrowinning process?

By leaching I am, of course, referring to the hydrochloric acid/clorox leach process.

I very much appreciate all the other info but, at the moment, I need this question answered before I can proceed.

Regards

Bob

Hi Bob,

I would think that a pack horse could carry enough black sand to be worth the effort, fact is, if you are going to be leaching on site, you will have to pack in lots of chemicals.
I am not saying there is a lot of gold in the black sand, but there can be, reason is that in some pyrites there is gold layered in in the crystal lattice, when this pyrite is wet and oxygen is available it oxidizes to iron oxides with gold in them, the sulfide, leaches off as sulfuric acid.

I had some black sand that showed no gold, checked it with microscope, there was no visible gold. I took 1 tablespoon of this material and added some flux, melted and stirred this produced 3 clearly visible gold beads, this was gold released from the sand and was more gold than was showing free in the material before processing.

to summarize, processing your black sand on site is not the most efficient.

Run your material trough a sluice get all the free gold you can, take a sample of the black sand and have it assayed, that will tell you if pursuing them is worth the effort.
You also may be able to fine a buyer for the black sand as is with assay paperwork.

Jim
 
TO ALL MEMBERS!

Without exception, please post all discussions involving the processing of mining material, of any type, in the Prospecting, Mining, Ore Concentrates, and Geochemical category. This is a scrap processing forum. The Mining section was only added as an after thought.


I moved it, Chris. There should be a shadow listing at the original location directing readers to the thread.

Harold
 
goldsilverpro said:
TO ALL MEMBERS!

Without exception, please post all discussions involving the processing of mining material, of any type, in the Prospecting, Mining, Ore Concentrates, and Geochemical category. This is a scrap processing forum. The Mining section was only added as an after thought.


I moved it, Chris. There should be a shadow listing at the original location directing readers to the thread.

Harold

Thanks GSP/Harold.
Interesting reading in this thread.
I seldom go elsewhere on this forum, and this thread is a good read.

Sincerely; Rick."The Rock Man".
 
packrat said:
Hello i am new to this site and i notice that everyone is obsessed with using AR to dissolve gold . Frankly most modern electronic scrap just has a small amount of gold with lots of base metal (iron and aluminum) so why spend money on nitric acid when all it does is supply oxygen and it is used primarly for fineness assays or final refining. There are cheaper oxidizers like hydrogen peroxide (H2O2) . Just use hydrocloric acid purchased from local retail , you dont need high purity or USP and use off the shelf hydrogen peroxide. put your cpu, jewelry ect in a pryex coffe pot or beaker and add just enough acid to cover it but leave room in the container to add H2O2. Save electricity heat the acid only to 130F you dont have boil the SHIQ out of it Add small amounts of hydrogen peroxide and look for hydrogen bubbles coming off the metal this means it is reacting and dissolving. When done let settle overnight and pour off into another clean glass container. Add distilled water and settle overnite two more times. Place a length of #14 clean bright copper wire in liquid of second container (just the end of wire in liquid not 3 pounds of it) stir slowly with glass rod (no metal or wood) once a day for 3 days . The black coating on the wire is gold and platinum group metals PGM only. save liquid from this and other runs and leave copper in it to recover any trace left in it (common practice) . If there is alot of gold the liquid will turn dark and a gold film will float on suface if this happen add more water and sink the film by whipping with small diameter copper wire acrross it and if you filter it you must burn the filter to recover the fine gold particals.

Packrat, Hi there. I'm also new to this site and learning as much as I can from HOKE and those on this forum. It seems like almost everyone has a way of "tweeking" an already proven method. This is what made me want to comment on your posting. I just use acid peroxide to remove the gold foils and surface PM's. It's not hot HCL, but rather just room temp. I haven't tested my solution with SC either, and if what you say is true then I've sold myself short! Can you please clarify your process? You state that there are two containers. One with the used Acid Peroxide and another with the scrap metal plus sterile water. Can you please clarify after this point? Also, a couple pics of what you're doing would be even better!! I would rather do something like this than using the dangerous stuff. Until I finish HOKE and really grasp all the minutia, I don't want to bite off more than I can chew.
 
Acid bath
While you're at it, see if you can get his used feedstock, as there is no good [non-cyanide] way of getting all the gold with these methods.
The PMs will cement out on existing base metals, even without the addition of extra copper. These old prospector tricks were ok when gold was plentiful & only $380/oz & gas was under $2/gal. I'm not trying to be insulting, but there's no substitute for the proven winner.

Read Hoke, follow the links in lazersteve's signature line, & download the Gold Refining Forum Handbook. As an exercise, look up Harold_V's responses to specific methods/materials using the Advanced Search function.

The combo that Gold Silver Pro offers for just $35 is really worth 100 times its weight in gold - literally.
 
dtectr said:
Acid bath
While you're at it, see if you can get his used feedstock, as there is no good [non-cyanide] way of getting all the gold with these methods.
The PMs will cement out on existing base metals, even without the addition of extra copper. These old prospector tricks were ok when gold was plentiful & only $380/oz & gas was under $2/gal. I'm not trying to be insulting, but there's no substitute for the proven winner.

Read Hoke, follow the links in lazersteve's signature line, & download the Gold Refining Forum Handbook. As an exercise, look up Harold_V's responses to specific methods/materials using the Advanced Search function.

The combo that Gold Silver Pro offers for just $35 is really worth 100 times its weight in gold - literally.

dtectr,

You're absolutely spot on. I bought his PDF file a while ago, and wanted to jump in on it as soon as I got through HOKE. I've had to take a break due to finals, but after this week I'm back to reading full time. This is the second time I've come across a "simple" method to get the results I see people really working hard for. Thanks for setting me straight. Back to my physics... HOKE on Friday.

Just curious, but what do you think about melting "less than 99.9% pure Au" with a flux. I'm sure HOKE covers this, but I would like to get an opinion from someone that has actually tried it or knows someone who has... and of course the results. Anyhow, thanks for the heads up.
 
ok so i just ran across the ceramic cpu yieldlist pdf posted here on the forum and was wondering what are peoples average yields with other ceramic cpu's like the AMD K6 cpu? i dont even like fooling around with the green fiber cpu's as the gold on those is so minimal. but are the k6 processors worth refining some of the lists i come acros state an average is .12 grams for them just curious what other peoples experiences have been
 
edsikes said:
ok so i just ran across the ceramic cpu yieldlist pdf posted here on the forum and was wondering what are peoples average yields with other ceramic cpu's like the AMD K6 cpu? i dont even like fooling around with the green fiber cpu's as the gold on those is so minimal. but are the k6 processors worth refining some of the lists i come acros state an average is .12 grams for them just curious what other peoples experiences have been

Depend on what list do you mean. One is floating around with all the wrong numbers just so people can have alook at it and have a laugh.
Can you post link to the one you found?
 
patnor1011 said:
edsikes said:
ok so i just ran across the ceramic cpu yieldlist pdf posted here on the forum and was wondering what are peoples average yields with other ceramic cpu's like the AMD K6 cpu? i dont even like fooling around with the green fiber cpu's as the gold on those is so minimal. but are the k6 processors worth refining some of the lists i come acros state an average is .12 grams for them just curious what other peoples experiences have been

Depend on what list do you mean. One is floating around with all the wrong numbers just so people can have alook at it and have a laugh.
Can you post link to the one you found?



well the lists i have seen are the ones that are way off. but someone posted a new one on here that had updated trial and error amounts but they only had 8-10 different chips on there and amd k6 processors werent on it and neither were the k5 so i was wondering from experience what folks, average yields on those two specific processors were.
 
this is the new list posted here by samuel-a. but he was missing those two processors


http://www.goldnscrap.com/images/stories/yieldlist.pdf
 
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