Quick question on sorting out gold plated items.

[pimpneightez]

First I'd like to say please don't yell at me. Seems like anyone who ask's a question here gets yelled at and told to read hoke's or the topic has been gone over already. I find it hard to find exactly what Im looking for in the search bar. Im in the process of reading hoke (Im on Page 211). When sorting gold plated items Im assuming all copper and brass can be processed together. Fingers are processed seperatly as well iron plated pins. Is this correct? I also have some gold plated aluminum(I think) From jewlery.

 

[patnor1011]

First I'd like to say please don't yell at me. Seems like anyone who ask's a question here gets yelled at and told to read hoke's or the topic has been gone over already. I find it hard to find exactly what Im looking for in the search bar. Im in the process of reading hoke (Im on Page 211). When sorting gold plated items Im assuming all copper and brass can be processed together. Fingers are processed seperatly as well iron plated pins. Is this correct? I also have some gold plated aluminum(I think) From jewlery.

That is probably anodized aluminum. Did you tested that pieces?

 

[nickvc]

No shouting because your doing the right thing, your reading and learning and I think getting the right idea that you keep items separate until you know which if any items can be mixed to be processed. Keep reading and follow the posts on the forum and your first button will soon be on show here!

 

[Palladium]

Nobody is going to yell at you. The only time people get frustrated and quote yell at people is when they ask stupid questions that had they researched they could have found the answer to. There are no stupid questions if you’re trying to answer a question and have searched and just can't find the right answer or maybe you found two answers and just want to confirm your information. If that was the case all my questions would be stupid. lol

Welcome to the forum. 8)


It bothers me that people would be scared to ask questions based on the fact that they fear reprisal for their actions. This is not conducive to a academic learning environment, nor is it in order of the principals that we should teach or uphold here. Is this really where we are at? This answer is really bugging me.
Just thinking out loud.

 

[seawolf]

I find it hard to find exactly what Im looking for in the search bar.
I find that if I go to Lasersteves posts and use the find anything fast I have better luck finding what I need and it is easier to move around in.
Welcome aboard, Mark

 

[Barren Realms 007]

It bothers me that people would be scared to ask questions based on the fact that they fear reprisal for their actions. This is not conducive to a academic learning environment, nor is it in order of the principals that we should teach or uphold here. Is this really where we are at? This answer is really bugging me.
Just thinking out loud.

I feel a little more patience and guidence needs to be shown towards new people that come here to find information on what the forum was desighned for. Everyone has to start from scratch sometime. Ask yourself, if my first group of questions had been answered the way some of the current new people have been answered would I have stuck around. All in all I don't feel things are going too bad tho. IMHO

 

[pimpneightez]

First I'd like to say please don't yell at me. Seems like anyone who ask's a question here gets yelled at and told to read hoke's or the topic has been gone over already. I find it hard to find exactly what Im looking for in the search bar. Im in the process of reading hoke (Im on Page 211). When sorting gold plated items Im assuming all copper and brass can be processed together. Fingers are processed seperatly as well iron plated pins. Is this correct? I also have some gold plated aluminum(I think) From jewlery.

That is probably anodized aluminum. Did you tested that pieces?

Did not test it but Im pretty sure your right. It does look a little funny. Not really the gold color it should be. Im going to say anodized.

 

[patnor1011]

Well quick test will not hurt if you have more pieces.

 

[Harold_V]

Im in the process of reading hoke (Im on Page 211).

I salute you!

Harold

 

[Harold_V]

It bothers me that people would be scared to ask questions based on the fact that they fear reprisal for their actions. This is not conducive to a academic learning environment, nor is it in order of the principals that we should teach or uphold here. Is this really where we are at? This answer is really bugging me.
Just thinking out loud.

I feel a little more patience and guidence needs to be shown towards new people that come here to find information on what the forum was desighned for. Everyone has to start from scratch sometime. Ask yourself, if my first group of questions had been answered the way some of the current new people have been answered would I have stuck around. All in all I don't feel things are going too bad tho. IMHO

I've tried to address this issue on more than one occasion. So far, nothing of substance has resulted.

I'm going to shift responsibility where it belongs---on the shoulders of those that inquire---in particular, those with an entitlement attitude.

Here's how it looks from my perspective, and, I might add, I've been very generous with my time in the past, trying to help anyone that has an inquiry.

The forum has a considerable following. Many of those that inquire come here with preconceived notions---often not even remotely in tune with that which we try to promote. To try to help is often futile-----anything they are told isn't in keeping with what they want to hear---and often isn't a solution, anyway, because they often are involved in a process that yields less than acceptable results. I offer as an example, dissolving everything in aqua regia, without addressing base metals, and often including all of the components. Entire boards processed in the hopes of recovering traces of gold, in other words.

New readers are instructed to read Hoke, and they should . I can't think of one reason why I should restate what they desperately need to hear when it is already in print and made available to them at no cost. If each inquiring mind were to receive explicit instructions, how many hours per day do you suppose that would add to the number of hours I already spend on this forum, all with no prospects of gain? Do these same people expect others to send them money, too?

Telling a person to read Hoke tends to sort them out quickly. Take note that many come here and make mention they are reading, while others refuse to even try. That's the individual we hope to change--the one with the entitlement mentality----as if we owe them a response of their choosing----namely a hand-out instead of a hand up. If a reader does nothing to better their understanding, they can not count on me to help them. I simply can't afford that amount of time for each individual that asks the same questions as all that went before them. Until they come to understand that it is them that is not being reasonable, sure, we're going to hurt some feelings. If that's all it takes to chase them away from the board, so be it. They weren't all that interested in the first place.

I reiterate----I have gone to great lengths trying to help others--but they must do their part in learning the basics. Otherwise, all the help you can offer does nothing to help them---because they don't have a clue to work with.

Some simple indicators of how much help a guy deserves include does he understand the significance of using stannous chloride? Does he use stannous chloride? Does he know how to test? Do they understand why it's important to eliminate base metals, and what the consequences can be if they are not removed first?

These are but a few of the things that everyone should know and understand if they start processing. If they have already scheduled their recital without knowing how to play a note of music, all the help we can offer isn't going to help them.

Read Hoke----and don't whine if you refuse, but still want help. Learning to refine is the responsibility of those that wish to do so---it is not the responsibility of the forum, nor of its readers or moderators. We help those that help themselves. All others need not apply.

I do not speak for the other moderators. I speak only for myself, but do keep in mind, all of them have busy lives and likely share the same thoughts.

Harold

 

[nickvc]

Succinctly put Harold and may I say I fully endorse your sentiments.
If the newbies refuse to read and learn how much help can we give without doing the job for them?
There is no free lunch, it always costs, the difference here is the lunch costs a little effort but the taste of success is tangible!
We need new members but not at any cost, those that do the homework succeed, those that don't disappear quickly, with or without disturbing the forum.
Life goes on but it's up to newbies to conform not for the forum to change, we will still be here whether they adapt or not, the only place to learn is here,adapt or leave!

 

[Barren Realms 007]

I whole heartedly agree with you Harold.

 

[Harold_V]

Succinctly put Harold and may I say I fully endorse your sentiments.
If the newbies refuse to read and learn how much help can we give without doing the job for them?
There is no free lunch, it always costs, the difference here is the lunch costs a little effort but the taste of success is tangible!
We need new members but not at any cost, those that do the homework succeed, those that don't disappear quickly, with or without disturbing the forum.
Life goes on but it's up to newbies to conform not for the forum to change, we will still be here whether they adapt or not, the only place to learn is here,adapt or leave!

Thank you kindly, Nick, and thanks, Barren, for your understanding.
Now---the big question---how in hell do we get these guys out of the *give me* mode and get them reading? None of us, myself included, can provide better detailed instructions than does Hoke----but so many think they're being put upon by being told to read it's as if I told them to cut off a foot.

I hope our good friend Rusty doesn't take offense, because the following comment is not intended to be offensive. It simply points out what I've tried to convey, often in vain, to the readers.

About a year ago I got an email from Gill, In it he humbly apologized for his not responding to my recommendation to read Hoke's book. It had been more than a couple years since the recommendation, and for all I know, he had been reading. Turns out he had not, but once he started, everything I'd told him came in clear focus. It's all in her book, not only what, but how. She hand-carries one through testing and refining in such a way that even a moron (I use myself as evidence) can learn.

Read Hoke, folks, and don't even think of starting a refining project until you understand what she teaches. Life will be so much easier for you.

Harold

 

[Oz]

Now---the big question---how in hell do we get these guys out of the *give me* mode and get them reading? None of us, myself included, can provide better detailed instructions than does Hoke----but so many think they're being put upon by being told to read it's as if I told them to cut off a foot.Harold

I think that is more of a societal problem, than a refining problem. Unfortunately it is something I do not feel we can fix, we can only exclude it from our own little part of the world “This Forum”, by not buying into such a philosophy.

Below is what I just wrote in another thread tonight, and what “I” think makes Hoke such an important read to the members here. Especially because of all the electronic scrap refiners we have here that will have to deal with a far greater number of contaminate metals than a karat gold refiner ever would.

Hoke is a good book about refining generally speaking.

What makes it great (which most other refining books lack) is the testing explained.

What makes it the most recommended book on this forum, is the acquaintance experiments. Taking the time to follow these experiments will teach you what will happen to different elements in different conditions. You want to know this before you see them for the first time in a solution with several thousand dollars of precious metals in it, and do not know what to do because of a problem like a gel or crystal formation.

Just one man’s opinion.

 

[freechemist]

Every newbie in refining finds him/herself in the same uncomfortable position, if not the same dilemma, namely in the lack of three most important things: background knowledge, practice and experience, all three linked together interdependently. Background knowledge can be achieved and enriched by reading and practice. Experience is always the result of combined background knowledge and practice, both growing together in a process of continuous learning and working.
Hoke, without doubt, has written a very good book about refining, presenting all her refining-experience in a more or less understandable form,
depending on the background of every individual reader. Reading Hoke solely, without practice, can become difficult and even a cumbersome affair, even to an experienced, now retired chemist, like me. The constantly repeated "read Hoke" and "put everything away, before beginning with refining - and first read Hoke" seems to me like sitting in a car, having to learn to drive it, an excellently written booklet "Driving for Dummies" on my lap and a driving teacher on my side answering only "read your booklet first" on every question and uncertainty I have. What I think, is, that most guys, supposed to be in the "give me" mode, actually are in the "let me feel safe" mode, the biggest barriere for them not beeing the obligation to read Hoke, but the fact of lacking practice and thus, experience, too. This forcedly leads to constant insecurity, to fears of doing something fatally wrong and to the every same annoyingly repeated "silly questions".

Just another man's opinion.

 

[Barren Realms 007]

Every newbie in refining finds him/herself in the same uncomfortable position, if not the same dilemma, namely in the lack of three most important things: background knowledge, practice and experience, all three linked together interdependently. Background knowledge can be achieved and enriched by reading and practice. Experience is always the result of combined background knowledge and practice, both growing together in a process of continuous learning and working.
Hoke, without doubt, has written a very good book about refining, presenting all her refining-experience in a more or less understandable form,
depending on the background of every individual reader. Reading Hoke solely, without practice, can become difficult and even a cumbersome affair, even to an experienced, now retired chemist, like me. The constantly repeated "read Hoke" and "put everything away, before beginning with refining - and first read Hoke" seems to me like sitting in a car, having to learn to drive it, an excellently written booklet "Driving for Dummies" on my lap and a driving teacher on my side answering only "read your booklet first" on every question and uncertainty I have. What I think, is, that most guys, supposed to be in the "give me" mode, actually are in the "let me feel safe" mode, the biggest barriere for them not beeing the obligation to read Hoke, but the fact of lacking practice and thus, experience, too. This forcedly leads to constant insecurity, to fears of doing something fatally wrong and to the every same annoyingly repeated "silly questions".

Just another man's opinion.

Experience and the tools you have to work with are the best things you can have.

 

[Harold_V]

The constantly repeated "read Hoke" and "put everything away, before beginning with refining - and first read Hoke" seems to me like sitting in a car, having to learn to drive it, an excellently written booklet "Driving for Dummies" on my lap and a driving teacher on my side answering only "read your booklet first" on every question and uncertainty I have. What I think, is, that most guys, supposed to be in the "give me" mode, actually are in the "let me feel safe" mode, the biggest barriere for them not beeing the obligation to read Hoke, but the fact of lacking practice and thus, experience, too.

So then, do you advocate scheduling a recital for the guy that has yet learned to play the piano?

I agree, they lack experience and practice---but endless bad practice does not a refiner make----and the only value of the experiences gained would be to not repeat the same stupid moves, assuming they learned that much. One does not run when they are not yet able to walk. Most of those that come here insist on running, and they are still on their knees crawling.

Here are my thoughts---

I agree in principle. However, I disagree in practice. Please take note that I have no formal education (I graduated, by some means, from the 12th grade), and took no chemistry at any point in school aside from a science class in junior high school.

Ok, now that we've established my credentials (or lack thereof), the point I've tried to make in reading Hoke is, if they really do read Hoke, and not just skim through the book, she takes the reader by the hand and takes them to the lab, where they perform all kinds of experiments to familiarize them with the processes, and to learn how to identify metals, both in elemental form, and in solution. They learn what acids can be used for various purposes, so they don't do stupid things. They are, for all practical purposes, sitting behind the wheel of the car and driving. it is up to THEM to learn the things that are required, just as it is up to the student that attends a lecture in college to absorb that which is being taught. No effort on part of the student, most likely a failing grade.

And so it is with refining.

If the new guy in thinks reading Hoke is too much to ask----why should anyone on the forum spend any time with them? They hope to be spoon fed information that is readily at their disposal---all it takes is a little effort on their part---at which time they can start asking meaningful questions. Up to that point, we don't help them---we simply make it easy for them to avoid the inevitable--standing on one's own feet and actually learning something about refining.

Had I not achieved a huge success working as a refiner, when my background revolved around a totally different field, I may feel differently, but, for the record, it was me and my copy of Hoke's book that put me where I was. Considering my lack of academic experience, if I can do it, anyone can do it, assuming they have the ability to read.

By some means, we have to break the cycle of people coming to the forum with not a hint of functional knowledge, then asking an endless barrage of questions when they could read and become informed readily. To be perfectly honest, I'd rather end my attempts at participating in this forum than continue the course it has taken of late. I have much more important things to do with my time than try to help those that refuse to help themselves.

Harold