Recycle your used Acid Peroxide.

[OMG]

With AP its the copper chloride that is doing the dissolving, but iron chloride also dissolves copper so why not just try cementing the used AP with iron powder, then add some HCl and H2O2 to oxidize the iron chloride back up so it can dissolve more copper?
FeCl3 + Cu -> CuCl + FeCl2
FeCl3 + CuCl -> CuCl2 + FeCl2

so you end up with CuCl2 and FeCl2 after your done, then just add iron powder and CuCl2 becomes FeCl2 + Cu (precip)
then FeCl2 + H2O2 + HCl -> FeCl3 + H2O
and you are ready to start dissolving again.

Actually, I'll try it on my batch of AP that's been sitting now for a while and then post my results.

 

[Barren Realms 007]

I tried this on some Nitric Acid I had used and saturated. It was done in a glass jar soaked in water to keep it cool. I had a nice reaction the whole time. I ran from 6V-12V on my battery charger. It took about 7-8 hrs to complete. I ran it till the copper stopped droppig out of the solution. I put about 3/4 of a cup of it in a glass jar and put some brass items that might have been plated with gold and let it set. Then next day no reaction had taken place other than some clear to white crystals have formed.

Can this be made active again or have I total screwed the pooch on this solution?


I currently have a batch or AP in a fiberglass pan that is long and I am running it on 12V successfully. The electrdes are about 24" apart. Heat should not effect this figerglass and I see no chemical reaction that it should mess up. It was what we use to use when I worked with the stuff.

I will post how things turn out.

 

[flexyman]

Hi every one,
Electrowinning Copper out of Chloride leach is economical. One has to use an Inert
Anode and a Metal Cathode. The trick is to never leave the Cathode in the Electrolite
without a Negative charge connected. I make my Inert Anodes as follows.
Take a look At Ishor web page to get the idea, because I do not know how to get a sketch
in this reply (help ). Get an unglazed but fired Terra-cotta pot, fill the pot with Dilute
Lye solution place a Mild steel rod into this solution . Now you have an Inert Anode. Posative electrical connection must be made to Steel rod. The Terra-cotta acts as the ionic membrane to stop introducing unwanted metals into the Chloride leach. Now if I could get the sketch attached we will be in business. Oh! the voltage across the Anode and Cathode should not exceed 1.5 volts otherwise the copper will turn black on the Cathode (collector )
AP " Acid Peroxide " Leach can be made two ways
(1) Muriatc acid + Hydrogen Peroxide
(2) Sulfuric acid = Hydrogen Peroxide
Precious metals can be disolved into Hydrochloric acid by attaching "PM" to Posative
DC voltage and Negative dc voltage to metal plate and emersing both into the same
container containing Hydrochloride Electrolite. Ofcourse the anode and cathode must
be connected to a low DC voltage. Voltage is the Electrical Pressure and Current is the
quantity of electrical energy
Have Fun

Have fun

 

[Barren Realms 007]

Are you sure you are adjusting the volts and not the amps in this equation? 1.5 volts is only like a small D cell battery.

in this info from Ishore you are adjusting the current(amps).

http://ishor.com/model.htm#Electroformer

Electroforming is a plating process that requires a very special kind of plating machine; an electroformer. All plating machines, electroformers included, work on the same general principle, they use DC current to cause microscopic plates of metal to adhere to, and build up on, the surface of the piece being plated. The low amperage and highly filtered current of electroformers produce small, evenly distributed plates that adhere much better to each other and the underlying substrate than with standard plating rectifiers. With a standard plating process, the thickness of the plating is relatively thin ( a few microns at most) and strong adhesion and even distribution is not critical. With electroforming, however, the plating is hundreds or thousands of times thicker. If a standard rectifier were used to produce such a thick coating, the coating would not only look very uneven, simply rubbing it would cause the plating to peel off the model. A magnetic stirrer is generally used in conjunction with an electroformer to insure a very smooth, even coating. Click hyperlink for electroforming videos. Electroforming is used to do two very different things: to build up models to compensate for shrinkage or to make hollow jewelry from wax models by building up a heavy metal coating on a wax model. When copying models, it is necessary to compensate for the inevitable shrinkage that occurs in the various stages of the casting process. Electroforming is the only known method of doing this. To make hollow jewelry, the wax is painted with a metallic electrically conductive paint (usually silver paint) and the electroformer creates a metal coating on top of the wax. The wax is then heated and drained, leaving a hollow core. For information on water soluble wax, see Shor Water Soluble Waxes. For an article on the electroforming process see Forming a Niche.


Is there a sketch on this? The pot idea sounds interesting. Trying to picture what you are talking about tho. Really need a sketch for this one.

Not sure where on Ishor website you are looking at.

I looked in plating on this but didn't find what you are mentioning. Go to the web page and paste it in your message.

http://ishor.com/Plating.htm

 

[firewalker]

I'm not a chemist, but all I used was pieces of steel to drop the copper out of the AP. After processing with the steel, the AP looked a pretty clear emerald green. That recycled AP I added to my bubbler for re-use. It takes a while when you are only using a 2000ml beaker, but I am going to upscale for the next time.....Jack

 

[Barren Realms 007]

Afternoon Firewalker,

Here is a thread on some nitric I did. But still trying to get it active again.

http://www.goldrefiningforum.com/phpBB3/viewtopic.php?f=37&t=5007


The batch of AP I did seemed to turn out ok and is starting to work again.

 

[flexyman]

Hello All,
I appologize for presuming, but then I presumed this thread was how to recyle your
used Acid Peroxide (A.P.)
I use The books " The Hydrometallurgy of Copper" by William greenwalt first edition
1912 and also "The Electroplaters bible"
Using to High a Voltage in Electroplating burns the Cathdode and also excessive Amperage causes Pacification of solution around the Cathode.
I find the most efficient combination of electricity to Electrowin Copper out of Chloride leach (taking Copper out of A.P. leach) is 1.5 Volts, at 0.33 Amps per 100sq.Cm density
at 50mm plate spacing. This way I remove only the Copper in the A.P., Then fresh A.P.
is ready for re-use.
Simply using Iron to drop out the Copper, Changes the Mixture into HCl+FeCl.
Now when I add Peroxide to this, It will disolve Gold as well as Copper. This is not
A.P. that was origionally used. Introduceing Iron into the equation changes all the chemistry Oops! Alchemy. chemistry is an exacting Science
I purchased the "Simplisity refining System' several years ago . This is where I got
the Inert Anode that I use . I still have not figured out how to add an attachment
have fun

 

[flexyman]

View attachment 2View attachment 1

 

[Barren Realms 007]

So the teracata clay is porus enough to allow the disolved particals to go thru it and leaves the precious metals.

That is interesting have you tried this yet?

 

[flexyman]

Barren Realms007,
Did you ever see the Movie called " Forrest Gump" ? If you did then you will
recall the saying that Forrest` s mother had. In the telling of his story Forrest
often mentioned this saying . It ended with "does "
Tell me, barren realms007 ,Where did I mention Precious metals, in prelude to
your recent question ?

Following is an idea on how to regenerate (recycle ) acid to save some Money
hydrogen Sulphide :-
If hydrogen sulphide is applied to a copper sulphate solution, the copper precipitated as cupric sulphide and an amount of acid regenerated equal to
that combined with the Copper.

CuSo4 +H2S == CuS + H2SO4
If the solution is a chloride, a similar reaction takes place.
CuCl2 + H2S == CuS + 2HCl
Ain`t Hydrometallurgy Oops! Alchemy grand ?

 

[Barren Realms 007]

You are right Flex, you didn't say anything about precious metals, and this thread is on recyceling AP. I was making an assumption with out explainin my thought completely. Sorry.

Let me rephrase that statement.

If you put your used AP in the teracata pot. And the solution is charged the copper ions will pass thru the pot wall but the gold and other PM's that are not disolved in the solution will remain in the pot if any exist.

And yea it was a good movie.

 

[goldsilverpro]

If it reacts the same as a porous cup, and I think it will, the only thing that will pass through is current and water, unless the porosity is so large that it leaks.

 

[Barren Realms 007]

Ok so it is possible that the pot is not porus enough to let the copper go thru the pot.

But let me ask this. Is there a diffrence in the structure of the copper if it is taken out of solution by reacting with iron to drop the copper versus having a chunk of copper that you try to electroplate to another piece of copper. If there is then is it possible that with the chunk of copper the atomic structure is smaller and will pass thru the pot since it is not reacting with the iron and the iron atomic structure does not come into play?

 

[flexyman]

OK Barren,
You have peaked my interest. I am going to try a different aproach because,
by your questions, many others will gain knowledge. There is a famous quotation that
that states the following " The first step to Wisdom is to admit ones Ignorance".


One of the fundimantal differences between Electrolytic refining and Electrolytic
extraction, lies in the The Anode.
In Electrolytic refining of Copper, the Anode is a slab of Copper alloyed with other matels
including Precious metals. This copper slab is incased in an Anode-bag, to prevent un-
disolved particles from fouling the Copper Sulphate Electrolyte.
The Anode and Cathode Electrodes are placed , a distance apart,in an Electroplating bath
When an apropriate Direct current Electrical supply is applied to the Electrodes then
Electrical current flows. This Copper Anode goes into solution and is diposited on the
Cathode, all the metals that did not disolve are left inside the Anode bag.
Theoretically no acid is consumed and none generated in Electrolyticrefining,since the acid going into combination with the Copper at the Anode is again released as free acid by its deposition at the Cathode.
When Copper already in acid,the conditions are intirely different. The goal then is, to deposit Copper out of the solution by Electrolysis, while no metal is going into solution
This involves the use of an Anode which will conduct the electricity into the copper
solution, while at the same time the Anode itself remains undesolved. Hence to make the The Anode insoluable, the Anode is incased in a Electrolytic Diaphragm. Diaphragm is a partition between the Anode and Cathode,which permits the passage of electric current but prevents the mixing of the Electrolytes in which the electrodes are immeresed
Have Fun

 

[Barren Realms 007]

OK Barren,
You have peaked my interest. I am going to try a different aproach because,
by your questions, many others will gain knowledge. There is a famous quotation that
that states the following " The first step to Wisdom is to admit ones Ignorance".

I will have to be the first to admit my ignorance on the subjects discussed on this forum.
But like I have always told my emplyees there are no stupid questions. The only stupid question is the one that you don't ask and it causes a HUGE screw up.

One of the fundimantal differences between Electrolytic refining and Electrolytic
extraction, lies in the The Anode.
In Electrolytic refining of Copper, the Anode is a slab of Copper alloyed with other matels
including Precious metals. This copper slab is incased in an Anode-bag, to prevent un-
disolved particles from fouling the Copper Sulphate Electrolyte.
The Anode and Cathode Electrodes are placed , a distance apart,in an Electroplating bath
When an apropriate Direct current Electrical supply is applied to the Electrodes then
Electrical current flows. This Copper Anode goes into solution and is diposited on the
Cathode, all the metals that did not disolve are left inside the Anode bag.
Theoretically no acid is consumed and none generated in Electrolyticrefining,since the acid going into combination with the Copper at the Anode is again released as free acid by its deposition at the Cathode.

In this process are we not already dealing with Copper Sulphate which is already an impregnated solution? Therfor can I assume that during this process that the copper anode is disolved but we can not say that 100 % of the copper from that Anode is deposited on the cathode because the flow of voltage throught the solution will charge the exisiting copper in solution and there is an equaling out of the material that gets deposited on the Cathode to keep the solution impregnated.

And I agree about the impurities being left in the Anode bag. I have herd of pantyhose being used for this in certain applications.

"The flow of current for this process" actually I think it is the flow of Voltage that is creating this process This would be the 6V to 12V application that is applied to the process.Remeber opposites attract that is why we have + and - for the flow of electricity. Current is actually the measure in AMPS, or the load you are putting on the application, the amount of power you are useing to complete the process. individuals think that electricity flows thru wire but it dosen't, it flows on the outside surface area of wire. This is the reasone that a cable with a lot of little wires in it will handle a load more efficently that a cable with just one wire it is because the load is being spread out over the surface area.

When Copper already in acid,the conditions are intirely different. The goal then is, to deposit Copper out of the solution by Electrolysis, while no metal is going into solution

Both solutions can be impregnated at the start of their processes, in this one we are trying to remove the copper disolved in solution by the reaction of an iron atom that copper reacts with to bring it out of solution or another like metal and in the previous we are not concerned about the soultion staying impregnated with copper?

This involves the use of an Anode which will conduct the electricity into the copper
solution, while at the same time the Anode itself remains undesolved. Hence to make the The Anode insoluable, the Anode is incased in a Electrolytic Diaphragm. Diaphragm is a partition between the Anode and Cathode,which permits the passage of electric current but prevents the mixing of the Electrolytes in which the electrodes are immeresed
Have Fun

In the process that is in discussion now I think that the Anode will have to disolve to a certain extent for the reaction of the iron with the copper to complete the reaction. In the case of the teracata pot if i'm correct most of the ones if not all of them that are not glazed will have soak thru to some extent, therfore there is some transfer of fluid along with the transfer of copper.

Now unless you are totally relying on the transfer of + to - ions to complete the reaction and not a reaction between the Anode and the copper I think that is possible as well in this application but I thiink you will still have some depleation of the Anode, such as useing a solid copper anode that will give off more voltage because of a large surface area and charging more of the copper in solution to attach to the Cathode than is being give up by the Anode. You can also have a depleation of the Cathode under certain conditions with this process. Maybe not with AP but with nitric I had the Cathode disolve as well.

If you use a cell that only the voltage can pass thru and not the copper ions that have reacted with the iron Anode then you are defeating the purpose of this type of cell aren't we? Because in doing this we still have the copper mixed with the PM's.

This type of membrane would work fine in a battery in which it take the 2 types of electrolytes to cause an electrical reaction without the electrolytes mixing. In our objective are we really concerned about the elctrolyte mixing? We are dealing with one electrolyte and we are just trying to clean it up. not all of the reacted copper with adhere to the Cathode some will settle to the bottom of the canister along with PM's that were in solution, we are trying to keep these apart.

 

[Platdigger]

Flow is current= amperage

Voltage is potential, or as Flex says, pressure.

The "trick here being a low voltage (pressure), and a reletivly high amperage (flow).

Also, Barren, I don't think it would mater that much if the anode in Flexymans cell was
Iron, stainless or even carbon.
The point being it is an "inert anode" that he is going for.
Randy

 

[Barren Realms 007]

I explained it wrong I guess.

Ohm's Law defines the relationships between (P) power, (E) voltage, (I) current, and (R) resistance. One ohm is the resistance value through which one volt will maintain a current of one ampere.

( I ) Current is what flows on a wire or conductor like water flowing down a river. Current flows from negative to positive on the surface of a conductor. Current is measured in (A) amperes or amps.

( E ) Voltage is the difference in electrical potential between two points in a circuit. It's the push or pressure behind current flow through a circuit, and is measured in (V) volts.

( R ) Resistance determines how much current will flow through a component. Resistors are used to control voltage and current levels. A very high resistance allows a small amount of current to flow. A very low resistance allows a large amount of current to flow. Resistance is measured in ohms.

( P ) Power is the amount of current times the voltage level at a given point measured in wattage or watts.

 

[flexyman]

Thank you for those who partisipated in this thread so far, But things seem to be going Bass Ackwards and I an reminded of a quotation my literature teach at high school used to use "Casting Pearls to the swine "
Soon there will be definative answers to the Big Bang Theory, not to mention new
definitions for Watts, Volts, Amps, Resistance, let alone Capacitance, Inductance ,
and Power Factor.
So I bow out to the "wisdom" of majority Voice.
The Topic of this thread still is " Recycle your used Acid Peroxide" which has not been resolved


Ain`t Hydrometallurgy grand

 

[Barren Realms 007]

Flex it has not been resolved but this little part of the equation is needed to get the full understanding of the process. There is a point that the reprocessing of the AP can go to far and this has variables in the equation.

 

[Platdigger]

Flex, have you used this cell to reclaim AP?

To recover copper?