SSn with iodine

[Harold_V]

I may well be on a tail chase but like a puppy I'm still not convinced I can't catch it.

Everyone is entitled to their dream, but in my estimation, you are wasting not only your time, but your life. You would be so much better served to set realistic goals.

I'm not trying to be rude, but do you happen to know anyone---ANYONE---that has accumulated more than a meager trace of rhodium? In my many years of refining, I didn't manage to accumulate so much as a dwt.

See what I mean?

Set realistic goals, then pursue them with a vengeance. You'd be amazed at the amount of gold and silver you can accumulate by doing so.

People that have gone before you aren't morons. If there was value to be had, they would have pursued the material to that end. If they couldn't make a profit on the material at your disposal, running volume, why do you assume you can do so running traces?

(Ok, I'll shut my big mouth now!)

Harold

 

[Oz]

Very true words Harold. I have processed silver as well as palladium jewelry that had a rhodium plating for brilliance, but that was not ore. I saved the Rh each and every time but I doubt it made more than $20 in my bottom line all totaled.

I am not suggesting you ignore it but that you should concentrate on the values that pay the bills, chasing ones tail seldom does.

 

[rhodiumfever]

Gentlemen thank you both for your responses, unfortunately neither of you addressed my queries. From Harold in particular I always get a stimulating read and please Harold, be assured that I certainly don't think that you would ever have to try to be rude.
Have you any experience with SSN leach or is it off your map so to speak Harold, as you mentioned in another thread that you only ever intended sticking with the basic and easy to recover metals?
I do still have about 30g off concentrated tailings that assayed at more than 20% Rh. Who was the fool who let that go?
Need to go out now. Look forward to your response.

 

[Harold_V]

Have you any experience with SSN leach or is it off your map so to speak Harold, as you mentioned in another thread that you only ever intended sticking with the basic and easy to recover metals?

As you alluded, my experience with recovering from ores is very limited. In a sense, where my refining experiences were concerned, I had a loose plan, which I pursued. It allowed my refining experiences to be guided by practical need and application. I openly admit I was not adventuresome, as I had other obligations that prevented me from what would have been wasting my time. If I took time from my obligations, it had to be productive, otherwise I'd have been the fool most thought I was, anyway, in spite of my considerable success.

I used cyanide and bromine for the few exceptions, which was a requirement. Did I enjoy success? Considering the meager amount of ore I processed (one lot was only four 5 gallon buckets), and the resulting assay indicating that the residual content was worth only a few dollars, I'd say, yes, I did. The extraction rate was 99.55% of the head assay, so I felt comfortable that I had succeeded.

I also used cyanide for removing silver and gold from once processed polishing wastes, which was also productive, although in the end, the entire lot was further processed by smelting to extract traces that were not recovered in the leaching process. That, of course, included platinum group metals.

I do still have about 30g off concentrated tailings that assayed at more than 20% Rh. Who was the fool who let that go?

I see your point, but the very fact that you are speaking of numbers that tend to defy logic, I question the assay. Can you describe the means by which you have drawn that conclusion?

Here's my position in matters such as this. Gold, which tends to be rather elusive to the prospector, is known to be in more abundance than platinum by a ratio of ten to one. Based on that, it would be unusual for anyone to discover a deposit of platinum group metals that yielded values that might be viable for a commercial venture.

Armed with that thought, and the consideration that Rh is far less common than platinum, can you understand that I might have reservations as to the viability of your claim?
Again, I'm not attempting to be rude, but the numbers, for me, don't add up. It might help to know the source (country of origin) of the concentrates, and how and why the material was concentrated. It makes little sense, at least to me, to think that others that had invested time and money in the operation would not be aware of the presence of such high values.

Do be aware, I am a skeptic, which has served me well in life. I am, however, open to evidence contrary to my logic.

You have my undivided attention in this matter.

Harold

 

[rhodiumfever]

Maybe I've not been clear. They are tailings of gold mining. I am in S E Asia and even if the miners are aware of other values, not all the artisan miners are able to extract PGMs. Iv'e got internet, phone and education and cant do it yet! However some know that there are other values and can sell the tailings better when some of the base netals such as iron have been removed with acid.
The assay I had done was at a respected institution and the average of 5 spectoscope probes came back at over 20% Rh, some osmium, some Ruthenium. I dont know what type of scope they used but the told me it wasn't an accurate quantative result. At $2000 an oz for Rh I was able to buy the tailings at a fraction of the value. I think its worth looking into but I surely need to learn more about how to refine the Rh. They presumably thought they were selling me platinum. Maybe they had already removed the platinum when they leached with cyanide. They probably thought they had sold to another sucker!
It seems SSN is possibly the most suitable method for leaching PGMs but its hard to get more than a smattering of information on it. This is a link that "platinum" posted to the process
http://www.scribd.com/doc/16798901/SSN-Leach
By the way the title of this post SSn is a typo and should really be all capitals SSN
Does anyone know how to measure the ORP without using the usual ORP meters that will apparently rust away fairly quickly. And what is ORP and how does it differ from pH?!
I just read the never ending post on platinumill. Some of you guys were trying SSN, how did it work out.

 

[Harold_V]

but I surely need to learn more about how to refine the Rh.

That may be true, but one can not refine that which he does not possess.

Your problem, right now, isn't one of refining. It's one of extraction, and they are not one and the same. The first thing that must be accomplished is to ascertain that the material really does contain Rh. I have my doubts, although that you are not in the US does lend some credence to your claim.

Harold

 

[rhodiumfever]

The first thing that must be accomplished is to ascertain that the material really does contain Rh.

I agree and to do that I must be able to put the Rh in solution. Steve and Lou's boiling sulfuric acid will do the trick but I still want some way to isolate the Rh so I can read the results better. Also I don't really want to be wandering around the bush with a bottle of conc. H2SO4 in my pocket.
At the end of the day if I can get hold of the tailings I would need to refine/extract the Rh to a saleable condition. Wouldn't be much point buying a tailings pile if JM and other refiners tell me they don't want it.
So any help on SSN is sought because if things work out this seems the most suitable method for extracting PGMs from ore.

 

[Harold_V]

The first thing that must be accomplished is to ascertain that the material really does contain Rh.

I agree and to do that I must be able to put the Rh in solution.

Wrong!

What you really should do is have a proper assay performed by a credible source. I feel perfectly comfortable in my telling you that unless you have extended experience in working with the platinum group metals, you are most likely to be duped by your results. You can stumble along blindly, secure in the idea that you have Rh, but it is difficult to extract, when, in fact, you don't have any. You simply must get a grip on reality and stop making assumptions based on your hopes and dreams. You are most likely being promoted by someone that is telling you everything he/she/it thinks you want to hear. This situation appears to have a great deal in common with the African gold promoters, who rarely have anything to offer, yet they manage to skin the victims. That's generally the result of wanting to hear that which isn't true.

Harold

 

[lazersteve]

I agree and to do that I must be able to put the Rh in solution. Steve and Lou's boiling sulfuric acid will do the trick but I still want some way to isolate the Rh so I can read the results better. Also I don't really want to be wandering around the bush with a bottle of conc. H2SO4 in my pocket.

There are other field test for Rh, but until you know what a given positive test for Rh looks like with the method of testing you choose, and the possible false positives associated with your test, as well as interferences from other precious and base metals, you will always be living in the dream world that Harold is warning you about. First and foremost, get a known laboratory grade sample of Rh, provided by a reputable third party. This will be your 'standard' that you will measure all test results against. Familiarize yourself with the known standard reactions to any and all of the tests you choose to use, and become comfortable with observing the results.

At the end of the day if I can get hold of the tailings I would need to refine/extract the Rh to a saleable condition. Wouldn't be much point buying a tailings pile if JM and other refiners tell me they don't want it.

As Harold stated, get a lab analysis of your ore sample to confirm you are not chasing your tail. Field test are just that. You'll need independent confirmation of the results before pursuing the 'tailing pile' for values. It's very important to properly sample the pile so as not to skew the assay results. Be sure to collect material of various sizes and appearances for analysis. If you pick up one shiny nugget and send it off and it comes back 30% Rh hypothetically, that doesn't mean the entire pile is 30% Rh.

So any help on SSN is sought because if things work out this seems the most suitable method for extracting PGMs from ore.

I'm sure you don't want to hear this, but why not keep an open mind as to which extraction process to use until you find one which works the best for the ore? It seems illogical to me to pick an extraction scheme, before you ever know what type of ore you are dealing with. Once you have a lab analysis of the material, then choose an appropriate extraction scheme armed with this knowledge.

Here's a simple field test for Rh:

• Evenly mix crushed ore sample with equal volume of crushed rock salt (sodium chloride).
• Roast at cherry red heat for 1 hour (~850C).
• Digest in distilled water.
• Cool to room temperature.
• Filter out solids, rinsing filter with distilled water.
• Add 1.5g of ammonium nitrate dissolved in 1 mL of distilled water @20C for each mL of solution to be tested.
• Rhodium is indicated by a orange-yellow precipitate.
• Dissolve the orange-yellow precipitate in HCl.
• Confirm the presence of Rh using the hot stannous chloride test for Rh.

Steve

 

[WIZZARD]

The opportunity to solve a problem is close at hand with Steve's post for rhodiumfever and others reading the post.

Steve wrote:

1. Evenly mix crushed ore sample with equal volume of crushed rock salt (sodium chloride).
2. Roast at cherry red heat for 1 hour (~850C).
3. Digest in distilled water.
4. Cool to room temperature.
5. Filter out solids, rinsing filter with distilled water.
6. Add 1.5g of ammonium nitrate dissolved in 1 mL of distilled water @20C for each mL of solution to be tested.
7. Rhodium is indicated by a orange-yellow precipitate.
8. Dissolve the orange-yellow precipitate in HCl.
9. Confirm the presence of Rh using the hot stannous chloride test for Rh.

Rhodium ore can exist as complex compounds in nature and can be soluble, not like secondary refined metal or native metal grains. When roasted with salt the minerals of the Noble Metals are now also made more soluble, where there is one NM there are likely to be others, are other metals now likely to be in solution too. Is there a sequence needed to take one or the other first? As the need to remove Au first then PGM's or the other way around, depends on the ratio of metals in solution? The Pd coming down with Au comes to mind if out of sequence? What if there is rare earth in the ore?

Example of soluble alloy; silver and platinum as an alloy, nitric acid/distilled water will place some of the platinum in solution, some cases most of it.


WIZZARD

 

[lazersteve]

.. where there is one NM there are likely to be others, are other metals now likely to be in solution too. Is there a sequence needed to take one or the other first? ...

The process I listed is a modified version of one I saw in a book.

Here is some additional information on the same process as listed in the book:

1. Gold will precipitate as metallic gold.
2. Osmium precipitates as red salt.
3. Iridium precipitates as yellow salt slowly after boiling the solution.

No other information is given in this reference.

There are numerous other field test to confirm the presence of the mixed noble metals in solution.

Steve

 

[WIZZARD]

I read a book from the Canadian Mining Institute by Louis Caribla,1979, no sure on the spelling, got some pages around somewhere in files. He roasted the ore with sodium hydroxide, and soda ash which make most NM soluble, depending on the value of the roast. What is not soluble is put back into the next batch. This is how you end up with PGM that are normally not soluble in AR, soluble in light acid. Thus Rh is among the metals made soluble in hot water. I'm working on using zinc electrodes in the solution to drop and or electo plate values to the cat and or drop out of the solution. The zinc saturates the solution and drives out the metals above zinc. I hope to recover the zinc at the cat and thus a reusable collector circuit. Who's tried that?

some one posted that I have some strange ideas..............just living up to it.



WIZZARD

 

[rhodiumfever]

Thanks guys, a lot of food for thought there.
I shall be able to get a lab grade sample of Rh in a couple of days. Is there anything special I should be getting, ie Rhodium black or is it straightforward metal powder? Also in the field test when you say digest in distilled water does this mean put the hot ore in distilled water, please excuse my ignorance if this is obvious. Finally in point f you dissolve in water at 20 degrees Centigrade, the temperature here in the shade is a steady 35 degrees, would the difference in temperature preclude this test.
The lab where I had the spectroscopic analysis done is very respectable and have nothing to gain from sweetening the results as inferred by Harold. Again, let me reiterate, I haven't tracked down the source yet so am not ready for a fire assay. Let me find a qualatative method first.
One of the strange things about the spectroscope assay is whilst it showed small quantities of other PGMs there were no traces of Pt or Pl. I think it was Irons who posted a link to PGM corrosion at 100 centigrade. On this table Pt and Pl are shown to react with KCN and this presumably would explain their absence.

 

[lazersteve]

... Is there anything special I should be getting, ie Rhodium black or is it straightforward metal powder?

You want a water or acid soluble Rh salt so you can easily put it into solution for the test.

... Also in the field test when you say digest in distilled water does this mean put the hot ore in distilled water, please excuse my ignorance if this is obvious.

The melt will need to cool before adding the water as water will quickly boil away at temperatures over 100C.

... Finally in point f you dissolve in water at 20 degrees Centigrade, the temperature here in the shade is a steady 35 degrees, would the difference in temperature preclude this test.

The temperature is given to determine the amount of ammonium nitrate that is required to form a saturated solution for the test. The formula is 1.5 grams per mL @20C, 3 g per mL at 40C, 4 g per mL at 60C. Adjust as required to make a saturated solution of ammonium nitrate. The test requires a saturated solution.

Sorry for the lack of clarity in my instructions.

Steve